Anyone Tried The New Ceramic Lights?

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stutter

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couldnt find any data on the BLI ballasts but i checked out the sun system ballasts and they are the same 50/60hz low frequency square wave ballasts used in the d-papillion. im pretty sure thats the only ballast that will run these lamps. i would be very surprised to find BLI's ballasts are any different
 
CannaTech

CannaTech

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https://www.google.com/patents/US71...a=X&ei=yisQVZnYG8OegwSb6YHIDg&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA
https://www.google.com/patents/US63...&sa=X&ei=lSsQVY_0CIydNvCigsgL&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA

The two above links are to the BLI's Ballasts These are their patents.

Go to google/patents/ then search any patent number you want. you will find what you are looking for.

You can do the rest of the work to compare and contrast the tech of the ballast vs whomever yall want. By the looks of it though, its nothing special.

Hope this helps. :P

Also @MGRox here is the geeky stuff for ya ;)

Not much if any from a traditional CMH
 
stutter

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https://www.google.com/patents/US71...a=X&ei=yisQVZnYG8OegwSb6YHIDg&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA
https://www.google.com/patents/US63...&sa=X&ei=lSsQVY_0CIydNvCigsgL&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA

The two above links are to the BLI's Ballasts These are their patents.

Go to google/patents/ then search any patent number you want. you will find what you are looking for.

You can do the rest of the work to compare and contrast the tech of the ballast vs whomever yall want. By the looks of it though, its nothing special.

Hope this helps. :p

Also @MGRox here is the geeky stuff for ya ;)

Not much if any from a traditional CMH

thanks for the info cannatech
 
UCMETOO

UCMETOO

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trust me its the same tech, i was growing for years with the old CMH lamps and when the new 315w LEC's came out i was one of the first in my country to run them. i knew the guy that was bringing them in and since he knew i had experience with the old ones i was given some to test out and see what i thought.

you would be correct in saying the e-pap is a different beast but thats not what we are talking about here, we are talking d-pap which is the 315w CDL exactly the same as the BLI 315w CDL, same lamp, sure BLI make there own ballast and stick it in an aircooled hood but its the exact same lamp and the exact technology.

Honestly if BLI are telling you anything different they are taking you for a ride and it raises questions about there ethics.

also just as a side note the d-papillion reflectors are awesome, i can see a lot more grow lights coming out with this configuration on there reflectors soon the light spread is amazing

THANK YOU SOOOOOO MUCH! That is exactly the information i was looking for. Also the folks at BLI have not made any statements about anyone else's products only that they have a patented (in the USA) design and are the builders of said systems. Also perhaps we really do have APPLES TO APPLES as the BLI built CDL's are 220-240 volt as well! I will give them a call in a few minutes and see what they say about the numbers and post the results here in a little while.

Ok, you have my curiosity way up- what country are you in? and when did you first start running these? also what kind of price tag do they have where you are?
 
pugliese63

pugliese63

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I've been following this thread with great interest. Where can you purchase the BLI units. Are they only available factory direct? Really want to convert my veg area to begin with especially with warm weather approaching. I also like the solar option they mention.
Thanks for all the great info in this thread.
 
stutter

stutter

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im in australia and i think it would have been around about 1.5 years ago now i think maybe a little longer i cant be sure, i didnt really keep track.

that may still be a little behind america too. it usually takes a while for tech to get to us aussies

they are very pricey. they are about $950 over here. but again our prices are always higher
 
UCMETOO

UCMETOO

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Ok, after a 2 hour long conversation with the head salesman for BLI ( they just moved everything sales and production and R and D into one space in Lafayette Co) . I learned from looking at a side by side display setup with the ballast built by Sun Light Supply for the Phillips AGRO 315w(O is marked on the bulb of those) that the real differences are in the firing and maintaining of the resonance, the difference between the two was stark,,....The Sun light supply ballast produces much more (like 65-70% more) yellow and green light and the BLI built Ballasts produce more red and blue ( same kind of % more) so the end result is more energy for the plant to use coming from the BLI Ballast. In the end each different ballast configuration will create a different spectrum output.......The ugly truth is that he showed me several configurations for sale in the market that are fucking the consumer by running the Phillips 315's EXTERIOR (E is marked on the bulb) this bulb is designed for exterior lighting (not growing plants) and this bulb has UV issues and is not designed to run low freq. and if run without the lens in a reflector (like a grower might/would) will expose the consumer to the contents of the bulb if/when it breaks or blows up. the lens creates a 10-15% loss of light and alters the UV as well....

As usual it all comes down to what the producing companies are willing to invest in the system and components. Apparently the cost of the Phillips AGRO 315's VS. the Phillips Exterior 315's is three times the expense, and thats where the motivation to keep the buyer in the dark comes from.

So thank you for making me go learn what the f**k is really going on in the market,...........i will say the ballasts that are designed to run the Phillips Agro 315's in a low freq. could all have the same general qualities but subtle ( and not so subtle, huh Sun Light Supply?) differences will occur in the actual spectrum of available light. Thank you FARMERS for letting me learn something that really matters to me.

ALSO i got some really fucking cool info about @HOMEBREW42o's inside line but i'll be still about that till he spills those beans,.......PEACE and HUGE CROPS!!

like i said 'i can learn' but start off very skeptical and have always been stubborn.
 
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UCMETOO

UCMETOO

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Now i'm curious if there are differences between the output of the D-paps and those coming from the Sun Light Supply built unit,......i'm betting the D-paps are the better unit because i've seen where the Sun Light unit falls short.
 
MGRox

MGRox

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+1 @stutter with all the bulbs being the same. CDM, CMH, CDL, LEC. Sales ploy for business, meh.

Thanks @CannaTech for those links!

Looking at those patents, there are only claims maid for reducing EMI internally and feedback in the AC mains. They do not mention the operation frequency, but do talk of High frequency in regards to the resonant tank / feedback loop. Since they do not make specific claims to operational frequency, it is hard to say if they are utilizing a low frequency modulation of the tank circuit.

Maybe to help here, I sniffed a bit into the whole hubaloo with frequency and HID's as I'm pretty familiar with frequency.
--There are a few different aspects where frequency will apply for these HID ballasts. First, would be EMI / RF from the ballast itself or output cord; along with EMI being sent back through the line. This point is fairly well known and why some choose magnetic ballasts over electronic. I suppose it's also, in part, why some companies (ex. gavita) mount the ballast to the socket directly. The patents provided above are most certainly focused on this and it would seem that the main aspect (for design) of the BLI ballast is to reduce this component.

--The second item, which is mentioned in their brochure, is related to "acoustic resonance" or "acoustic streaming". So, this is a "possible" issue with all HID's; though applies most largely to HID's with relatively symmetrical and spherical packets.
**What this means / is: Basically, the plasma that is emitting the light in operation is "oscillating" from various factors (temp, pressure, input frequency, packet dimensions etc). In certain cases where the input frequency to the bulb is close to the "acoustic resonance" of that bulb (at that point in time), or a harmonic thereof; a standing pressure wave can develop in the packet. Where the acoustic resonance frequency is; 1/2 wavelength equals the diameter of the packet (based on pressure velocity at that time).

-- If these standing waves are created then they will result in either A. Bulb flicker. Or B. Arc Extinguishing. Note: this flicker is most often of a low frequency and is visible, however this can also be tested with a photodiode and an oscilloscope to see flickers at higher frequencies.

--The acoustic resonant frequency of a bulb is defined first by it's shape and structure for the packet itself. The power delivered to the bulb, in general, determine the pressure and temperatures; which correspond to the pressure velocity. Because of this, the resonant frequency is constantly changing as the bulb warms up until full operation (i.e. there is not 1 set resonance with any single bulb).

--For frequencies then. Frequencies, less than 2,000 hz will not cause acoustic resonance in any known HID. Frequencies most commonly associated with this phenomena are in between 35,000 to 300,000 Hz (depending on bulb size / wattage). From an electrical design standpoint; higher frequency is more efficient and easier to produce than low frequency, so high frequency is always preferred ** from a electrical design standpoint.

--There are 3 main ways that this issue has been corrected with ballast design (over the last 40 years). 1. Low frequency square wave ballasts and these are the "most common" method. 2. Frequency modulation ballast which vary the frequency so resonance cannot be achieved (osram). 3. Ultra High frequencies over 500,000 hz also prevent acoustic resonance as the energy contained in any pressure waves is small in comparison to the plasma.

Some additional points of interest possibly with the spoiler.
-- when using low frequency square wave ballast; the (HF tank) ripple must be less than 5% or otherwise will have the same chance as a high frequency ballast for resonant flicker. (not too fond of BLI's 20% THD numbers here)

****NOTE FOR ALL 315w PHILLIPS CDM Bulb users. DO NOT, NOT run those bulbs vertical!!! The mercury / thallium separate from the sodium and the CRI goes out the window; also the spectrum of the bulb will be different with what is "top and bottom" in vertical mode. There is some really cool research that was done on trying to not have this problem in vertical mounting. They actually used acoustic resonance to an advantage via creating multiple stationary waves in the packet; which re-joined the compounds to restore CRI. Frequency there was 67,000 Hz for a 39w CDM mastercolor.

Last. Here's another ballast that is also low frequency square wave (150-180hz) but has a better THD (<10%).
 
stutter

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yeah i read the patents as well and after reading them. it seems they dont have a patent on the actual ballast just a control circuit that they use in there ballast.

basically BLI found a cheaper way to do the exact same thing then slapped a patent on it. they removed the need for an inductor which controls electromagnetic interference by simply blocking the interference with a few diodes to stop it flowing back through the ac and a capacitor on the dc side.

basically the BLI ballasts can be produced cheaper and lighter by removing the inducer, thats the main difference. i would like to see the BLI stats as they dont seem to be online anywhere.
 
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Billyboat

Billyboat

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@homebrew420 says he is getting 9/10ths of a pound per 315 fixture,........Period. So lets say the 1000's give you back 2 pounds each, that is 32 pounds, right? Now take 50 BLI 315's at 9/10ths that is 45 pounds. How many cycles getting an extra 13 pounds would you need to cover the costs of going with the BLI CDL's not to mention ( yes i am mentioning it, i know) what your not paying for the bulbs over the three years and the savings not managing that heat issue you know the 1000w MH's produce.

BTW, Billy you kill it, and i KNOW that. It is one of the reasons i know you could make the switch without a hitch. I would not say that to a rookie, or a newbie the learning curve still must be achieved before which lights you run are your biggest worry.......

CDL not CMH is the light type offered by BLI,.......and the difference is AMAZING!

This is for my main veg room the 50 315's vs 16 DE 1ks, so no flowers produced.

Now i'm curious if there are differences between the output of the D-paps and those coming from the Sun Light Supply built unit,......i'm betting the D-paps are the better unit because i've seen where the Sun Light unit falls short.

I have both in my preveg room, right now I like the way the dpap tosses light at all angles, I have 5 over a 4x20 row right now and they are vegging tighter then the Row of SS LEC's.
IMG 5134
 
stutter

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This is for my main veg room the 50 315's vs 16 DE 1ks, so no flowers produced.



I have both in my preveg room, right now I like the way the dpap tosses light at all angles, I have 5 over a 4x20 row right now and they are vegging tighter then the Row of SS LEC's.
View attachment 496745

its funny even in your pics you can see the difference in spectrum between the dpap and the SS. the SS is tons redder. are they the 4k lamps in both or are the SS running the 3k lamps?

the great thing about the d-paps and that wide angle is you get really good penetration especially in your situation because the light is actually cast in from the sides and gets under a lot of the vegetation. even in my tent i see the same effect where it reflects off the walls and cuts back under on the sides.
 
Billyboat

Billyboat

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its funny even in your pics you can see the difference in spectrum between the dpap and the SS. the SS is tons redder. are they the 4k lamps in both or are the SS running the 3k lamps?

the great thing about the d-paps and that wide angle is you get really good penetration especially in your situation because the light is actually cast in from the sides and gets under a lot of the vegetation. even in my tent i see the same effect where it reflects off the walls and cuts back under on the sides.

They are all the same 4200k bulb.
 
fishwhistle

fishwhistle

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UC Sounds like BLI's salesman is doing a great job,lol.The way i understand it there arent too many manufacturers of 315 ballasts,the bulb manufacturer philips makes one and the other popular one is a welthink so if all the ballasts are basically the same and all the bulbs used are the same then really the only difference is the reflectors between the units.It seems like BLI is inferring that SS Lec's are running 315E exterior bulbs and that is not true,those bulbs are only rated for enclosed units,the bulbs SS uses are O bulbs rated for open reflectors,dont beleive everything salesmen tell you as they have a vested interest,BLI is bullshitting you if they gave you that information,no large company would risk the liability of running an enclosed bulb in an open fixture.
 
stutter

stutter

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UC Sounds like BLI's salesman is doing a great job,lol.The way i understand it there arent too many manufacturers of 315 ballasts,the bulb manufacturer philips makes one and the other popular one is a welthink so if all the ballasts are basically the same and all the bulbs used are the same then really the only difference is the reflectors between the units.It seems like BLI is inferring that SS Lec's are running 315E exterior bulbs and that is not true,those bulbs are only rated for enclosed units,the bulbs SS uses are O bulbs rated for open reflectors,dont beleive everything salesmen tell you as they have a vested interest,BLI is bullshitting you if they gave you that information,no large company would risk the liability of running an enclosed bulb in an open fixture.

i have to admit i thought the same thing, BLI definitely do make there won ballasts and there are a few others around a well. now i dont know about SS but the pic above by billyboat certainly raises some question about what sectrum the ss are putting out. the light splashing on the walls is definitely a lot redder coming off the ss units
 
UCMETOO

UCMETOO

495
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This is for my main veg room the 50 315's vs 16 DE 1ks, so no flowers produced.



I have both in my preveg room, right now I like the way the dpap tosses light at all angles, I have 5 over a 4x20 row right now and they are vegging tighter then the Row of SS LEC's.
View attachment 496745


Wow ,....that is just amazing, and in the end their was a difference, thank you for SHOWING IT TO THE MASSES!
 
UCMETOO

UCMETOO

495
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UC Sounds like BLI's salesman is doing a great job,lol.The way i understand it there arent too many manufacturers of 315 ballasts,the bulb manufacturer philips makes one and the other popular one is a welthink so if all the ballasts are basically the same and all the bulbs used are the same then really the only difference is the reflectors between the units.It seems like BLI is inferring that SS Lec's are running 315E exterior bulbs and that is not true,those bulbs are only rated for enclosed units,the bulbs SS uses are O bulbs rated for open reflectors,dont beleive everything salesmen tell you as they have a vested interest,BLI is bullshitting you if they gave you that information,no large company would risk the liability of running an enclosed bulb in an open fixture.


Sorry if that was at all unclear,.....BLI is not saying the SS is using an (E) bulb,....but some others are! I never take any sales persons word for anything i can't confirm. But you can see the difference between the spectrum with you naked eye between the BLI built ballast and the SS with the same (O) bulb in it and the growth shown is also different.

as i said its a subtle difference, so the qualifiers are "Large Company" BINGO!!!! also i can't help but get hung up on "basically the same" in reference to the finished ballasts. I guess i would say this and hope to close any gaps in my meaning : all women are "basically the same" as to structure and components,.... and we all know some you would never want in your house, and some you would never want to leave all based on "subtle differences" PEACE!
 
UCMETOO

UCMETOO

495
93
+1 @stutter with all the bulbs being the same. CDM, CMH, CDL, LEC. Sales ploy for business, meh.

Thanks @CannaTech for those links!

Looking at those patents, there are only claims maid for reducing EMI internally and feedback in the AC mains. They do not mention the operation frequency, but do talk of High frequency in regards to the resonant tank / feedback loop. Since they do not make specific claims to operational frequency, it is hard to say if they are utilizing a low frequency modulation of the tank circuit.

Maybe to help here, I sniffed a bit into the whole hubaloo with frequency and HID's as I'm pretty familiar with frequency.
--There are a few different aspects where frequency will apply for these HID ballasts. First, would be EMI / RF from the ballast itself or output cord; along with EMI being sent back through the line. This point is fairly well known and why some choose magnetic ballasts over electronic. I suppose it's also, in part, why some companies (ex. gavita) mount the ballast to the socket directly. The patents provided above are most certainly focused on this and it would seem that the main aspect (for design) of the BLI ballast is to reduce this component.

--The second item, which is mentioned in their brochure, is related to "acoustic resonance" or "acoustic streaming". So, this is a "possible" issue with all HID's; though applies most largely to HID's with relatively symmetrical and spherical packets.
**What this means / is: Basically, the plasma that is emitting the light in operation is "oscillating" from various factors (temp, pressure, input frequency, packet dimensions etc). In certain cases where the input frequency to the bulb is close to the "acoustic resonance" of that bulb (at that point in time), or a harmonic thereof; a standing pressure wave can develop in the packet. Where the acoustic resonance frequency is; 1/2 wavelength equals the diameter of the packet (based on pressure velocity at that time).

-- If these standing waves are created then they will result in either A. Bulb flicker. Or B. Arc Extinguishing. Note: this flicker is most often of a low frequency and is visible, however this can also be tested with a photodiode and an oscilloscope to see flickers at higher frequencies.

--The acoustic resonant frequency of a bulb is defined first by it's shape and structure for the packet itself. The power delivered to the bulb, in general, determine the pressure and temperatures; which correspond to the pressure velocity. Because of this, the resonant frequency is constantly changing as the bulb warms up until full operation (i.e. there is not 1 set resonance with any single bulb).

--For frequencies then. Frequencies, less than 2,000 hz will not cause acoustic resonance in any known HID. Frequencies most commonly associated with this phenomena are in between 35,000 to 300,000 Hz (depending on bulb size / wattage). From an electrical design standpoint; higher frequency is more efficient and easier to produce than low frequency, so high frequency is always preferred ** from a electrical design standpoint.

--There are 3 main ways that this issue has been corrected with ballast design (over the last 40 years). 1. Low frequency square wave ballasts and these are the "most common" method. 2. Frequency modulation ballast which vary the frequency so resonance cannot be achieved (osram). 3. Ultra High frequencies over 500,000 hz also prevent acoustic resonance as the energy contained in any pressure waves is small in comparison to the plasma.

Some additional points of interest possibly with the spoiler.
-- when using low frequency square wave ballast; the (HF tank) ripple must be less than 5% or otherwise will have the same chance as a high frequency ballast for resonant flicker. (not too fond of BLI's 20% THD numbers here)

****NOTE FOR ALL 315w PHILLIPS CDM Bulb users. DO NOT, NOT run those bulbs vertical!!! The mercury / thallium separate from the sodium and the CRI goes out the window; also the spectrum of the bulb will be different with what is "top and bottom" in vertical mode. There is some really cool research that was done on trying to not have this problem in vertical mounting. They actually used acoustic resonance to an advantage via creating multiple stationary waves in the packet; which re-joined the compounds to restore CRI. Frequency there was 67,000 Hz for a 39w CDM mastercolor.

Last. Here's another ballast that is also low frequency square wave (150-180hz) but has a better THD (<10%).
https://en.nedap-luxon.com/uploads/Specsheets/GLOBAL/CQ Ballast specification sheet.pdf




That is really wierd they are rated as universal position aren't they?
 
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