Are these root aphids?

[click80]

No. Mine look like Phylloxera and I am a little confused as to whether it's an aphid or not. Wikipedia says it's close to an aphid but also a louse? Plus it is totally staying in the roots for the most part. I have found a few winged ones and I guess they went and laid eggs. In other words I am a little confused as to exactly what they are, I think it is just words, since I have found plenty of references to them as aphids. I know that earlier I found some pics and it said they were aphids, and called them grape phylloxera....so??? I am almost certain it is the Grape Phylloxera but does not cause leaf galls like it does on grapeleaves. Plus I found a reference to the same looking one but they called it a Pecan Gall aphid. Maybe they are all the same depending on what they infect changes the name??? You can google it and see if you want. I am googled out. I am thinking if it is the same then maybe something about cannabis leaves that make it not do the gall thing.

Mine are green and brown for the most part. I think you are in hydro and maybe yours are not reaching the next stage. Just a guess. I actually looked at yours and at first thought they might be springtails. When I did hydro I had that scare one time but springtails are easy to tell, they kind of jink around in the water, plus they only feed on dead organic matter as I remember.

 

[click80]

I do know I just spent two hours with plain spinosad this time at 30ml/liter and a pipette and pulled on plant out of it's 6" square pot and dosed different clusters and watched them die. It def kills them. Some survived for about three minutes but then died after spazzing out.

Also, I don't know what the Lethal Dosage is for spinosad, so these two plants I am experimenting with I will not flower. I have a few extra so am doing this.

I know the safety profile for spinosad is pretty good though. I took the rest of the liter of the spinosad only mixture and did a root drench. Will see if it kills the plant. The other plant which i did basically the same thing with but had Neem also is doing fine so far.

 

[cctt]

As far as I can tell the precise taxonomy has been difficult to nail down for everyone affected. "Root aphids" has become a widely used term and I'm not entirely sure if we're all dealing with the same thing, or how closely this is related to the true phylloxera that grape growers see. It's entirely possible, however, given the complex lifecycle of phylloxera and the many forms it takes. The fact that you see no galls on your leaves may also not indicate that they're different - only that that's not the form they're currently taking. Personally I first dealt with them (~1 year ago) by initially seeing galls all over my fan leaves, which then progressed to the root form and caused some real damage. What I'm dealing with now may very well be the smallest stages of the same pest that just hasn't progressed (the tiny ones can still cause serious root damage though!).
Just like there have been wildly varying reports of what works and what doesn't to kill them that may or may not mean they're different species, or just different forms of the same species. So far the most common success stories I've heard involve imidacloprid, met52, and/or gamma-cyhalothrin. I have used spinosad for fungus gnats and I like it because it's quite safe. What concentration of spinosad does the product you're using at 30ml/liter contain? I will be interested in hearing the results of your tests to find out how much may damage a plant.

 

[click80]

I used Captain Jacks Dead Bug Brew by Bonide. It's 0.5% Spinosad. Label rate for all pests is a blanket 4 tablespoons per gallon. So I used it the second time, alone without Neem, at exactly double.

The plant I did with Neem at 2tbl/gal and Spinosad at 7 tbl/gal is having some leaf curl. The other plant that I used Spinosad alone at 8 tbl/gallon looks fine.

I also thought that maybe since your in hydro then they develop differently than in soil. Since they can reproduce in either soil or on leaves and, as you mentioned, there are so many different reports about their behavior and activity, plus from what I read today it seems as though they are highly adaptive.

It's interesting as I also in the reading today came across an article that mentioned a company had been licensed to market or prepare for market a formulation of Spinosyn A and D for use in killing head lice in humans. Plant lice, head lice, I wonder how close they are taxonomy wise. Too tired to investigate. They are both sucking insects the piercing mandibles i think.

Anyway, I don't want to tear the rootball apart yet but I do know I did not get 100% as I found about three still alive but ONLY at the top half inch of the rootball. Even if if the roots are going to take recovery time, Caps bennies make that a snap. I still want to reiterate that even if I did stumble across something here there has to be a reason that the manufacturers haven't pursued label changes to include aphids. So even thought this is pretty cool so far, I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. I think that if, as I have heard, we can expect these pests in soil from now on that preventatives are how to keep then away. I should have never slacked off on my teas for my moms and some other things.

I will update in morning and decide how long I will let the plant go to make sure it will survive before going into the rootball and seeing exactly how many died. I hate to say it but I find this very interesting in a rubbernecking the accident sort of way I guess.

 

[leadsled]

is merit 75 available over the counter(in USA?)

Yes

No! It is not.

cctt, try a hot water flush. 120*F. If you're doomed to lose them anyway, it's worth a try, IMO.

You are incorrect about the merit75.

Regarding the water temps.
Do you have experience with trying this and seeing the results?
OR something you read on the internet?

IMHO, It is best that you disclose that. I remember other posts from you on the subject. Which then gets read and conveyed by others. Spreading more information without all the facts or details.

You never did that to say "from experience" that it worked. He could kill his plants by going this method.

I recall you stating in another post that you were not positive you eradicated the root aphids, ( Since you were growing outdoors or something. ) then in other posts you claim that triazicide killed them. I wish I read that before I wasted time with that bullshit.

The details really matter imho. I know because I read the same stuff on various forums.

Internet Reading experience does not equate to growing experience.


A+ for effort and trying to help others. Share a little more details about what is fact from experience would be helpful. Thanks

 

[click80]

I just went and checked plants. The one with Neem and ~double Spinosad is looking sad. The one I did with just Spinosad 2 double label is fine, better than fine. Greener already. Pulled it out and I found one crawling at the top of root ball. I am going to hit them regular strength today but do a soaker in shallow tote.

Just so I am clear I do not think anyone should do what I did with mine beyond experimenting. I found one research article comparing Malathion and Spinosad cytogenetic aberrations and there were some below the LD if I read it right. Either way it's a chemical, just because a bacteria shit it out does not matter.

I am going to also at the end of treating them today, add in some Neem and Cocowet and see if that makes a diff. It's bugging the crap out of me about why one batch is so much healthier than the other. Unless I am forgetting something the only real difference is the Neem. The only other possibility could be that the Roots Organic is so airy and that is helping the plant. But as far as the Neem, maybe it's because when I spray I really spray and make sure they are coated...maybe so heavy that enough of the Spinosad/Neem mixture dripped into the root ball and kept them down enough for the plant to get it's own defenses going. If I get time I will take some pictures so you can see how big a difference there is between the two batches.


I just finished ordering the Merit 75 sent 2nd day. I found it for $35 per 2oz bottle. Very nice guy if anyone wants the name of the company just pm me.

Asked the dude if he wanted to do a trade, he was down but said the state he's in would not be

:)
Anyway......the beat goes on. Pestology. Another learning curve. Should be a sticky for people like me that start thinking they know their shit and then find out that the fungus gnats have really probably been RAs for the most part....it's good to get humbled occasionally.

 

[Seamaiden]

Spectracide as in Malathion? If so yes that stuff is terribly strong smelling. I still have some, unopened on my shelf. I now have a root aphid outbreak but since I am in veg I am ordering some Merit 75, or I am about to order it. Was thinking of doing a pyrethrin dunk, then azasol dunk alternatively but after reading this thread I think I will just get the Merit and treat my clones, clone my moms and do a housecleaning. DAMMIT...

There is a whole host of 'cides' made by Spectracide, and I believe one formulation would include Malathion. However, that's not what I used, I used Spectracide with Triazicide. What you quoted applies to that. What must be noted is that, while it worked for me, it doesn't work for others. Same applies to Bayer's imid concoctions, and I've read of others who did not see full eradication with the M75. Since there is, again, a whole host of variables at play in each scenario, you're going to have to be persistent with what works, and be prepared to scrap what must be. IME, once a plant's been infested, they lose all vigor and just never grow right again. Subsequent cuttings were the same for me.

I don't want to use any of that stuff. Very discouraged right now.

I can now see that I got too comfortable maybe. My pest problems seemed to solve itself after switching to soil and teas. I had a little outbreak of thrips, took care of that, but now I think I had root aphids at same time and didn't know it. I have to go back over my journals.

I think that when I stopped spraying my clones (my own clones) and drenching with Aza, that was a mistake. I think that a lot of success against pests involve prevantative measures, especially after reading post after post from people that have had outbreaks of different pests and can only pinpoint the vector as soil from the store.

Not my experience, but definitely mirrors that of others, so good to note on all counts.

Did I read you correctly, Spinosad may have worked here?

 

[Seamaiden]

Yes

You are incorrect about the merit75.

Are you addressing me? And if so, I am positive it is not legally available OTC in the state of California, and just because you can get it at a hydro shop doesn't make it so. I'm going by the information provided to me by manufacturers and ag suppliers on this one.

Regarding the water temps.
Do you have experience with trying this and seeing the results?
OR something you read on the internet?

IMHO, It is best that you disclose that. I remember other posts from you on the subject. Which then gets read and conveyed by others. Spreading more information without all the facts or details.

I've done my best to state every time I discuss it that it's a technique I have never had the opportunity to try myself, as I eradicated the root aphids *I* experienced, finally, by using the Spectracide with Triazicide. Had I known about the possibility of using hot water, I would have tried it directly. The information I've conveyed is via a published paper that I've stopped including since it's specific to both Phylloxera and grape stocks, and others have relayed their experiences directly to me, so far they're killing plants using the recommended 125*F water.

You never did that to say "from experience" that it worked. He could kill his plants by going this method.

I think I've been pretty clear that it very well may kill the plants and I have not tried it myself. If I failed here, I apologize.

I recall you stating in another post that you were not positive you eradicated the root aphids, ( Since you were growing outdoors or something. ) then in other posts you claim that triazicide killed them. I wish I read that before I wasted time with that bullshit.

Huh? If I said that, it may have been during the bout. I will state now, and have been since the spring following the infestation that Triazicide killed the root aphids that I experienced. What's the problem here? That I also discuss another method that I haven't been able to try? Is there some rule that I can't discuss something, mention it, bring it up as a possibility if I've never actually tried it? What more disclaimers do you want?

The details really matter imho. I know because I read the same stuff on various forums.

Maybe I should ask you how many forums I'm a member of. This is beginning to smack of internet gossip.

Internet Reading experience does not equate to growing experience.

Ya think?

A+ for effort and trying to help others. Share a little more details about what is fact from experience would be helpful. Thanks

Oy. Read above. I'm trying me best not to create posts that are pages long, but Jesus, try to make it succinct and look what happens. If I've forgotten to make specific disclaimers in every post, I apologize. But I have been consistent in my statements regarding *my* experience, so if you've read something different I would like to know where.

 

[click80]

I don't want to use any of that stuff. Very discouraged right now.

I can now see that I got too comfortable maybe. My pest problems seemed to solve itself after switching to soil and teas. I had a little outbreak of thrips, took care of that, but now I think I had root aphids at same time and didn't know it. I have to go back over my journals.

I think that when I stopped spraying my clones (my own clones) and drenching with Aza, that was a mistake. I think that a lot of success against pests involve prevantative measures, especially after reading post after post from people that have had outbreaks of different pests and can only pinpoint the vector as soil from the store.​

Not my experience, but definitely mirrors that of others, so good to note on all counts.

Did I read you correctly, Spinosad may have worked here?

Seamaiden, yes, Spinosad definitely kills a large percentage, but at double the dosage. You can read my above posts and I know some of it might not make sense so if you have any questions just ask. I am not good at being succinct :)

I ordered the merit75 and until that gets here I will do a root drench at regular strength with Spinosad for most of them but a few with Neem and Cocowet. If you read my above posts I have two batches of clones. One is doing much better than the other. I say two batches only in that one was for another person. They all came from the same moms. I really am thinking that maybe the batch that is doing so well is because I sprayed them with Neem and Spinosad, not Azamax and Spinosad. Maybe the coating action of the Neem plus the Spinosad dripped down enough into the soil to help them out more. I don't want to make this another novel length post, so if you are curious I way overexplained it in my previous posts.

So, did you mean in your experience that you don't think soil less mixes have pests? Everytime I have problems it coincides with new soil coming in the picture. I would love to hear what brands you like. I thought you did real soil though?

Thank you for clearing that up about the Malathion. I cannot ever picture you putting that on a plant :) Plus the triazacide is carried locally here for some reason I am pretty sure.

 

[Seamaiden]

My experience was that the initial infestation occurred in outdoor perlite hempy tubs. They were 30' off the ground on my balcony. I first noticed flyers and ants leading in and out of the tubs. At that point I thought they were fungus gnats and the ants were unrelated.

The Triazicide thing was desperation, thinking I could reverse things.

There's a lot more I could, probably should say about the whole thing but it would become pages and pages long.

 

[click80]

I have so many variables that occurred that it's impossible to say where the Root Aphids originally came from. One other thing that is something to note is that overall, including the batch of clones that are doing better vs the ones not doing so well is that both batches are mixed Pineapple Express and Deathstar. The PE are handling the RAs a fair amount better than the Deathstar. I have ECSD and Romulan moms,which are new, and just a couple moms of each and it's hard to judge on them.

 

[Seamaiden]

I should reiterate that the Spectracide with Triazicide IS what worked to eliminate the RA infestation in my case. Or iterate, whichever is more correct.

Your experience is mirroring mine--some ladies can handle it, others can't. Notable was The White and the subsequent powdery mildew infection that not even Eagle20 could eradicate, specifically on this one plant. Cuttings taken from some will perform better than others, but again IME none perform well when compared to uninfected/uninfested stocks.

 

[cctt]

I should reiterate that the Spectracide with Triazicide IS what worked to eliminate the RA infestation in my case.

How many applications of Triazicide did it take you to assure complete annihilation? My first shot was a quick dunk, which I think was too quick to work - they came back. Now I've moved to dunking for several hours, so far twice over the course of four days. I see a lot of little dead ones all over the root balls and coco but I'm afraid to stop applying.

 

[Seamaiden]

I did three applications on the affected plants, flooded the trays for several hours, and IIRC I used the highest dosage rate on the label, something like 2oz/gal (that detail is in my notes, not my head, use the label as your guideline). I also sprayed down the ENTIRE growing and adjacent areas; i.e. my whole basement. Don't stop applying yet, and keep up sticky traps because if there's a SINGLE flyer, she fucks the whole thing up for you.

 

[click80]

Merit 75 seems to have knocked them down but good. Can't find any live ones. I changed my original plans as I did a test with Spinosad at regular strength and it does kill a pretty good amount but I think a complete dunking would be in order for someone wanting to not use anything else. Since I had the Merit on the way, I decided on a root drench with Neem/Spinosad in tubs and let them sit in the tubs for about 20 minutes to soak up plenty of mixture. This was to hopefully weaken the populations somewhat.

First off, I let the room RH go down to 40 so everything would get pretty dry, I then root drenched late Tuesday with Neem/Spinosad in shallow tubs and let them soak in that about 20 minutes. I also sprayed everything with Neem/Spinosad with Cocowet and a little Dawn added so as to get good sticking. Leaves were coated extremely well as after they dried, which took a long time since RH was high, there was a nice sheen of Neem left on them (spinosad too i imagine). I had let the room RH go up to 80 before the foliar as I recently read that with high RH the guard cells swell up and that allows tiny spaces for better cuticle(?) or translaminar (?) (whatever the term is) penetration with foliar spray applications. In other words so it would get through the outer waxy layer in addition to the stomata. After leaves dried well, I then let the RH go back down so the plants would suck up the root drench so soil would be relatively dry for when Merit got here. Merit arrived yesterday evening, I mixed it at label directions and (as suggested) added in Dyna Grow at 1/2 tsp gallon. The Merit label suggested using with a nitrogen fertilizer to improve uptake. As I did the root drench with the Merit, in the tubs again, I could not believe how many of them flowed out and barely one or two had any life. They all died within minutes. I have had flyers but I am finding them dead on the leaves. I don't know if they laid eggs or not but I am going to follow up with a foliar spray of the Merit (maybe) after I investigate the life cycle of flyers and their eggs and kind of feel things out. I have read that the eggs have a very tough outer shell and a foliar spray with Merit will not penetrate eggs. I should assume there are eggs and will probably go with just cloning and starting with new moms.

Fairly optimistic right now. I would think that since the Merit stays in for 60 days, if the eggs hatch in that time and they start feeding they will die. (?)

Plants are looking better already and new root growth started after the first Neem/spinosad drench.

 

[ballplayer 2]

Bump! Hey Click, how are things going for you battling these bugs. I have fliers and the same small clearish/whiteish ones you have. I am attempting to assess my situation, and decide which products have some efficacy behind them. Thank you for your time and help.

 

[doubleup]

They kind of look like RAs by shape, and the fact that they're crawling on the roots. They're not the darker color I expect, though, and I can't identify the signature "dual tail pipes". These pictures are at 200x and 60x - They look like specks with the naked eye and slowly moving specks with a loupe. I am used to seeing RAs more easily without magnification. The roots where they're found are more brown than the others - though the medium is being reused and full of old roots - so it could possibly be already-dead rootmass attracting them.
View attachment 273510View attachment 273511View attachment 273512 View attachment 273509

Sorry bro yes, I just went through this for the first time. Maybe it is just top of mind awareness but now seeing more and more of this around. I used Evergreen, shit worked bomb. Was in mid to late veg. Very pleased and happy with results. I am in hydro so did a soak. Done. Good luck, I caught them in that stage too, early is better as with any plant problems. Hate those little bastards.

Stay on it man,

 

[cctt]

I'm glad to hear that worked out for you. I tried a -lot- of things, including a pyrethrin soak (I used Pyganic) and eventually came to the conclusion that it was not worth trying to keep those plants. After wiping out everything and starting fresh things are looking good.
At this point, I would not recommend trying to recover from a serious infestation if the plants are vegging - this is the opportunity to take the easy way out and not invest any more into them. If they're flowering it may be worth letting them finish with reduced yield, then cleaning the room thoroughly.

 

[ballplayer 2]

I plan on starting over clean AND using preventative measures such as Met 52, Imid, Caps packs, Spectracide... and possibly Botanigard or Pyrethrum.

I cleaned and took a 15 month hiatus, and these fuckers were still around. I suspect they stayed alive somehow in either my sump pit or waste ejector pit. Which are are in a different area quite some distance away. I would spot a flier here or there and thought they were a random gnat, I was not really paying attention because I did not have anything going. I figured after that amount of time they would have moved on...and so did not use preventative measures, man was I wrong.

 

[Seamaiden]

Anyone here reading about using HEAT, such as a hot room, to control or eradicate these little fuckermothers?

Thanks for that reminder, ballplayer. I NEEDED THAT.