Athena + Promix = Nothing but Problems

[99problems]

Quick update:

Things are finally seeming to turn around for the better. I took some clones that are now in just coco, and my current regiment seems to bringing them all back to a good place. Promix takes a day or two to dry, where coco is staying moist and getting hit daily.

Currently giving (in order):

Calimagic (for coco plants only) - 1ml/g
Root Drip - 1ml/g
Flora Series 3-part base
Re-charge (soon to switch to BioAG Ful-Power)
Rapid Start - 1ml/g
& Hydroguard - 2ml/g

Feeding around 1700-1900 EC as I think they were not getting enough food before. Recharge is mainly for adding humic acid until Ful-Power arrives. I understand it is of pretty significant importance especially in coco / soilless.

I believe the Root Drip has been clearing all the salt that was building up and leading to lockout. I am however not completely sure if something like "Root Drip" or "Athena Cleanse" conflicts in any way with the "Hydroguard" that is all beneficial bacteria?? I might make a separate post about this to get input on this, but for now It all seems to be working well together in both promix and coco.

I noticed before that my water sometimes was too warm as well, likely leading to real problems without any protection. Doing what I can now to keep it as close to 68° as possible, and the Hydroguard seems to keep roots from going south for me in a major way also. The oldest clones in the coco seem to be happier than ever and progressing daily.

There is still a bit of red/purple stems on the ones that had it the worst, but it seems to be fading into green as well as not always drooping severely anymore. After every feeding they seem to be pointing up with vigor, intake finally feels normal again.

Just did a good defoliating for actually the first time in their life yesterday, feels good.

pics coming soon

 

[99problems]

ok,
been busy but just wanted to share a brief update.

I have moms in larger pots now, as well as clones in smaller 1 gals - running only coco.

I agree with what people said about the promix holding too much water (especially for sprouts imo) ..but i also believe a bad salt build up was one of the main issues here.

Still trying to get things dialed in perfectly, but overall everything is going much better now. since the first post we started using the root drip cleansing agent as well as going for much more runoff, and have been just using the flora series as a base. again, everything new is in coco only now. We are currently looking at testing an organic nutrient line, but maybe that'll come up some other post.

Got a cut of each strain still in veg now, everything else is getting flipped. We are just trying to test what strains we're running now, and then choose our favorite couple to go with.

Thanks to everyone who offered advice! I think we're gonna make it to the finish line.

some pics taken from today, early week 3 12/12

 

[99problems]

+Yes i know i need a serious de-leafing asap!

Working on it!

 

[99problems]

Final update.

Currently running:
Medium - COCO

Nutrients -
Mills - Vitalize
Root Drip - (Mainly for irrigation lines / salt clearing)
TPS Ultra Bloom
& PH Up

PH - 5.8 - 6.1

Water Temp - 66° - 71°

They get fed once daily until runoff, and never fully dry. Pretty simple but they're pretty happy. Working on more automation next.

+side note: I spoke with someone at Athena, and they confirmed that their "Cleanse" product is an absolutely essential part of their pro line. It's so strange to me that everywhere they advertise their Pro line as the ultimate complete nutrient system, "Cleanse" is never even pictured or mentioned. The fact that I was running the pro line nutes without cleanse caused a majority of the problems at the beginning of this grow. Major serious salt build up.

Crossing the finish line now, harvesting this week as well as taking more clones soon from the best moms.

THANK YOU to everyone who helped with your advice and opinions, it really made a difference and kept me moving in the right direction.

 

[Trash_2002]

Final update.

Currently running:
Medium - COCO

Nutrients -
Mills - Vitalize
Root Drip - (Mainly for irrigation lines / salt clearing)
TPS Ultra Bloom
& PH Up

PH - 5.8 - 6.1

Water Temp - 66° - 71°

They get fed once daily until runoff, and never fully dry. Pretty simple but they're pretty happy. Working on more automation next.

+side note: I spoke with someone at Athena, and they confirmed that their "Cleanse" product is an absolutely essential part of their pro line. It's so strange to me that everywhere they advertise their Pro line as the ultimate complete nutrient system, "Cleanse" is never even pictured or mentioned. The fact that I was running the pro line nutes without cleanse caused a majority of the problems at the beginning of this grow. Major serious salt build up.

Crossing the finish line now, harvesting this week as well as taking more clones soon from the best moms.

THANK YOU to everyone who helped with your advice and opinions, it really made a difference and kept me moving in the right direction.

Athena is just a really expensive form of Plant Prod hydroveg (Part A) + Calnit (Part B), with this ferts you can run pretty much 2:1 ratio (PP:CalNit) from seed to harvest.
Athena schedules are also crazy high EC for no good reason imho. Its just the hype.

Plant-Prod 7-11-27 HydroVeg Water Soluble Fertilizer - Master Plant-Prod Inc.

Plant-Prod has been improving plant productivity since 1947. The most Water Soluble Fertilizers on the market.

www.plantprod.com

 

[blacklablabs]

Hi all, I really appreciate anyone who takes the time to read this.

I’ve been growing for over 10 years. Breeding and making feminized seeds just for myself & friends for over 8 years.
Successfully ran an outdoor farm with over 200 plants one season. I've grown with soil in every kind of environment, indoor outdoor and never had any problems I couldn't solve. I’ve even taught people how to grow who are doing very well.

Ever since I’ve tried to go in a new simpler / cleaner direction this year - it’s been an absolute nightmare, and it's almost destroyed my love for gardening.
The girls never look happy at all. It’s just become a daily source of agony. This post is the very last thing I expected to do, but sometimes we all need help.

Symptoms - constant drooping/wilting no matter if the medium is dry or wet, dull matte lifeless / brittle leaves, weird twisty, deformed leaves, oddly crimped leaves, purple stems not from genetics, just about every deficiency possible. Nothing seems to be helping. There’s 2-3 diff strains (all indica leaning) and they’re all having the exact same issues from the start.

I try to keep a decent log, so let me bring you up to speed.

Medium - Promix MP
Feeding - Every Watering

Nutrients (in mixing order)-
+Silica - 2/3 ml/g
+CalMag - 2ml/g (organic no nitrates)
+Athena Pro Line (so far just the veg "Core" and "Grow")
+TNB PH down
+Non Ionic Wetting Agent - Added last (at recommended dose for peat/coco @ 2 TBSP / Gal) - Doesn’t affect PH or EC

Average EC - 1.2
Average PH - 6.2 (recently learned lower may be better for Promix, now shooting for 5.7 - 5.8 last 2 feedings)
Average VPD - 0.9 - 1.0 (was 0.7 - 0.9 first month)

Runoff PH 6.5
Runoff EC 1.6
Runnoff always gets dumped, pots never sit in their runnoff more than a few minutes.

IPM - Jack’s Deadbug Brew once a month
I triple checked in the 250x zoom scope & confirm no bugs/eggs/movement at any magnification on leaf undersides or stems anywhere.

Instrument - Bluelab PH Pen Calibrated monthly
Generic EC Meters x2 (both read within 20 of each other, and the reading is often right where nutrients say it should be landing. getting Bluelab EC Pen next)

Lights - 2 x Spider Farmer SF2000 both at 80%

Water EC before nutes is 0.2 @ 72-75 degrees
I keep my water in a rez (cleaned monthly), with just a small pump and nano air-stone in there mixing / bumping the DO levels / airing out chlorine from tap.

Plants in 1.3 Gal plastic pots
(Transplanted 3 as a test for being root bound, and transplant made no difference at all. Still having same issues now in 3 gal airpots, ready to just cut them down at this point)

Generally I’ve been watering till runoff (10-15%) every 2-3 days, lifting pots for weight and aided with moisture meter - so I'm never feeding when they’re already fully wet. No matter when I water, the plants have zero reaction which feels so wrong and bizarre. Like they aren’t even drinking or trying to live. I’ve tried every variation on how often to water and nothing seems to make any difference at all, i get no response when feeding. Ideally I would like to be able to feed/water every day or other day, but now I feel lost and worse off than before at this point. When I try to research, I find nothing but conflicting information about Promix and coco for watering.

I was told at the grow store that "Promix is soilless and comparable to Coco". I now don’t think that is accurate. It doesn’t seem to behave like coco, which is what I actually wanted to work with but it was unavailable. I would like to get them back to health so I can gtfo of this Promix, but really I don’t know what’s wrong at this point.

I originally planned to get these cloned and running/flipping in COCO but I’m beyond worried about having the same main problem carry over if I don’t know what the hell is causing this catastrophe here. Also I don’t want to clone anything until I can get them back to full health so I’m stuck here.

What’s most puzzling is the roots look decent but the plants look like shit..

I know the Athena says 3.0 EC all the way, but when I’ve fed any higher than 1.2 - I got sever leaf claw (tips pointing down) and leaves turning so green they were almost blue. That’s why I’ve bumped down to 1.2/1.0 even though the recommended is 3.0, with that I don’t understand how 3.0 wouldn’t kill my plant from N toxicity. I currently have no supplemental CO2.

I’m used to knowing when the plants are thirsty and simply watering the second they drooped or were about to. They would always shoot right back up again like clockwork and get so happy they'd almost be pointing straight up. Now here every time I water literally nothing at all happens. then in a day or two they just look worse. Literally zero response from the leaves after a heavy or light feeding, weather I do them close together, or wait an extended period to let them dry more then water- no response.

Something feels very very wrong and I can’t figure out the root cause. It’s killing me, for once I’m finally in a position to make something big happen business wise- but suddenly every plant I touch just wants to die. This run was just to find a mom then be running clones, but all of a sudden I can't even get to a single healthy plant.

Attached a few photos, they really do look way worse in real life (camera made them a little more saturated than they are, but you get the idea), the leaves are super dull , they feel lifeless almost brittle, just slowly getting worse. The opposite of LUSH which is honestly what I’m used to…feel like I don’t even know when or how much to water anymore at this point. I’d hoped this would be a great learning experience but so far It’s just gone backwards. no matter what I try to do nothing seems to help / work.

Theory: Was the wrong PH (6.2 vs 5.8) creating issues with the nutrient ratios that caused / I mistook for nitrogen toxicity and subsequently bumped down in EC when it just needed (more food and) to be in the right ph window? Did the 6.2 ph input over time bump the medium ph to outside livable range?
Im not sure if there’s such a dramatic difference in that ph to be a root problem, but maybe it is..It’s always felt like I was just one click away from everything being in place and taking off like a rocket, with the best of everything I can get, but nothing I try promotes a positive response.

Spent my last everything to get here, but it’s going bad as It could on any timeline. I just want them to flourish and for me to be overwhelmed with defoliating. So far I’ve barely taken any leaves off at all, pushing onto month 3 of life. I just wanted a clean medium, and a simple nutrient system.

Trying to do absolute everything right, but no matter what plants look like shit. Sorry if this is a little all over the place, I feel totally lost at this point. tried to give all the info I can. Will answer any questions to my best.

Is there hope?

Doubt your still running athena but I tried it with promix hp and basically had same issues x5 it's a program ment for more hydro applications I switched to coco and had an amazing run. Also don't use any natural additions when running salts I'd try it in coco (buffered and rinsed). Don't worry so much about the ec coming out its meant to stack up now I mean if ur seeeing 3-5k ppm I'd lower ur feed a bit and maybe make sure the ph is where the ladies want it. Athena says u can run it with promox but I think that's a bunch of hooie.

Black lab dude

 

[Unklefrosty]

Promix is a soil. Not a coco substitute. If you're hammering hem with 3.0ec of hydro nutes you'll get tons of salt build up pushing down your soil pH and causing lockout. Flush with plain pHed water let them dry back a little and start introducing a light feed around your normal ec of 1.2. Should help fix the issue. Next time i advise using coco or rockwool for Athena nutes.

 

[Unklefrosty]

Athena is just a really expensive form of Plant Prod hydroveg (Part A) + Calnit (Part B), with this ferts you can run pretty much 2:1 ratio (PP:CalNit) from seed to harvest.
Athena schedules are also crazy high EC for no good reason imho. Its just the hype.

Plant-Prod 7-11-27 HydroVeg Water Soluble Fertilizer - Master Plant-Prod Inc.

Plant-Prod has been improving plant productivity since 1947. The most Water Soluble Fertilizers on the market.

www.plantprod.com

The reason they advise 3.0ec is because in soiless substrates the baseline substrate ec should be 3.0. The basis of all crop steering strategies. If you're running Athena I suggest anyone sticks to their recommendations on substrate and precision irrigation strategies. There will be more success using their parameters.

 

[Chongz209]

Hello, I’m new here to THC farmer and all the threads and forms not necessarily too new just a new register to be able to write comments. I’ve been through the threads and forms a few times and have came across this one. Probably two or three times just for the simple fact that I’ve been doing research on the Athena proline product For about six months now or so I’ve seen a lot of great things. Heard a lot of great things about it all throughout the industry the podcast I mean you name it so I decided to do my first run on an indoor grow about few months back and I had some success, but ran into a few issues , which mainly made me go online and come across these forms and read a few things that you guys were posting and I finally got the whole proline dialed in not to mention I am using the same soil as most of you guys are talking about which is the promix and the soil has nothing to do with it. It’s not the nutrients they work perfectly fine , I have seen and I know you guys have mentioned especially the first person that started this thread. I took a look at the EC that they were running, and all the added nutrients that they were adding to the athena line. I’ve been using this nutrient line for about six months now I’m on my second run but doing it in greenhouse and it’s working great. I finally pinpointed and know exactly how to use the Athena pro line in soil medium whether it’s Coco, whether it’s promix , I mean you name it there’s a way to feed you just have to understand the way that you have to feed when using promix and the way the difference can be when feeding using Coco, so I will say if you are running Athena proline product or any Athena products, whether it’s the pro or blended line, you do need to understand that the line was created to be used just with its own products the grow core and bloom three part line has everything it needs in those three bottles most of your micro nutrients and macro nutrients that the plant needs are in core with a few being in the grow as long as you run just those three bottles do not add anything else because I’ve been through the same thing that a few of you guys are doing I added a few different products that I felt the plant might have needed like calmag, silica even sometimes big bud when I’m in flowering or bud candy and the thing that I’ve noticed the most when doing any of those things are adding any of those things to the Athena proline is that I immediately deficiencies I start to see the plants they’ll start showing yellowing overall it just tarnishes the plant and makes it kind of wanna die at first I thought it was a nutrient line I thought I didn’t know exactly what I was doing or how I was using it. I completely thought the nutrient line just wasn’t for me. It dawned on me and I tried something because I seen a podcast from We The Growers where they mentioned that their nutrient line needs to be used just by itself, and it needs to be ran at a 3.0 EC
Because if you go any lower than a 3.0 EC or mix any other nutrients into the Athena nutrient line, you will most definitely come across wilting from your plants and major deficiencies. I completely cut out all other added nutrients I was adding to the pro line and ran just the proline which is vine core together at a 3.0 EC Win veg it’s 19 mL of core per gallon of water and 32 mL of grow per gallon Which is the 3.0 EC target as long as you run their suggested recipe at 3.0 EC you will see great results now I will add that if you are in soil medium, particularly promax like I am using there is a certain way you need to feed your plants in order to achieve great results and I will kind of try to explain that right now and if anybody has any further questions, they can reach out to me and I will gladly try to explain further into detail or if I missed anything or you got any other questions I’d be more than glad to try and help and answer them I’m currently running promix soil in 5 gallon fabric pots and I make sure to mix the Athena nutrients at the recommended EC which is 3.0 and I feed each one of my plants hand watered anywhere from a half gallon to a gallon of water every day or every other day there’s not necessarily runoff most of the times there isn’t any runoff I know that Athena suggest you to water until runoff but you have to remember that they are suggesting that if you are running a hydroponic system and we are running Prox soil for a soil medium you can most definitely use this product in soil mediums. You just have to understand and kind of mess with the watering that you’re doing, especially when in pots and soil if you are in 5 gallon pots like me you’re only gonna want to feed about a half gallon to a gallon the most a day or every other day depending on how heavy they are you can kind of pinpoint if they need more or less and if you’re in any shorter gallon pots or bigger pots, you can kind of just pinpoint on exactly how much water are you gonna need if you guys are in 10 gallon pots they’ll probably need about a gallon and a half to 2 gallons of water if you guys are in 2 gallon pots they’ll probably only need most a half gallon to a quarter gallon of water if you guys follow those recommendations you will see great results with this line. I can tell you one thing the new run that I am doing in my greenhouse right now with the Athena proline is killing it. I’ve ran it exactly the way that they say I’m running the three part pro line and I also am using their IPM and stack that you can both mix as a fuller feed spray IPM helps out with pest control and powder mold and stack is a kelp derived folder spray which helps in transitioning your plants to flower a lot faster and also stacks the notes very closely together those are the things I’m currently running, and I have had no issues whatsoever and have encountered not even one nutrient deficiency. I could clearly say if you run the line the way that they recommend it you’ll see great results and I can definitely vouch and say that this is the first time that I ran something they recommended and haven’t had one issue or one problem or seen one nutrient deficiency like I have using other nutrient lines , just wanted to share my thoughts and hopefully I’m able to help anybody out there that’s trying to transition to using Athena nutrients or maybe have tried Athena nutrients and gotten shitty results but it could be because you know sometimes you just need a little help or a little guidance on exactly how to use certain products, especially when working with different, medium and growing environments if there’s anybody that needs any help or if I can help answer any other questions, please feel free to reach out to me. I’d be more than willing to help if I can.