Automation / Monitoring: PREVENT SYSTEMS FAILURE

[Capulator]

Capulator -

How reliable have you found the insteon products to be? When you say you have your pumps on remote, how are you controlling them? You have a smartphone interface for the insteon?


ttystikk - you and your cousin aren't working for Sentinel are you? ;)





Ill report back how the Sentinel HID-2 HID lighting controller seems to work. Of course hopefully there is never a need to rely on its overheat protection features...

Still researching the sensaphone...

the products so far have been reliable. I use a handheld remote to control, so I don't have to plug and unplug when I hand water (which I no longer do anyway).

I do not have the smartphone or laptop capability, but they do offer it.

 

[kushjunkie]

Trying to get a good idea of what the differences are between the Sentinel HID-2 HID and the MDT-1. Seem to have the same features - maybe im just being dense. Can anyone share a side by side comparison or a link to one?

The MDT-1 has a cycle timer for pumps, ect. The hid-2 does not.
The mdt-1 has a very short cord to the temp probe though, only a few feet. I believe the hid-2 has a 4 meter cord.

 

[ttystikk]

Trying to get a good idea of what the differences are between the Sentinel HID-2 HID and the MDT-1. Seem to have the same features - maybe im just being dense. Can anyone share a side by side comparison or a link to one?

HID-2 is a digital 24 hour timer, with two outlets that can be set to stagger the time when they turn on. It comes with a heat sensor on a 4 meter cord, programmed to shut off the system should it exceed your specified value. It has programmable hot start prevention. It has a battery backup. HID-2.
Contrary to what the link says, it's been on the market for some time, to rave reviews.

DRT-1 is a digital recycling timer. It does NOT have a heat sensor. It is not limited by a 24 hour cycle, and can thus be used to run all sorts of interesting light-time-duration experiements. It has a photocell for day, night or constant operation. DRT-1

MDT-1 does everything both the HID-2 and the DRT-1 do, if I read the specs right; MDT-1 I think I know which one I want now!

 

[treebark1950]

Hey fellows here is what I did so none of my rooms every get too hot and never miss a light cycle due to a high temp shut off...

I run Powerbox DPC15000's for a load center and I had them wire up the trigger cord for a high temp shut off, that works great but kills the light cycle and I have 2 bloom rooms so it didn't work perfect for my application...

They also make a DPC12000 which has two indpendent banks of power that is designed for 6 lights each on seperate timers. Well I got them to wire each trigger cord for my high temp shut offs and now I have the lights divided in half, per bank, that way if it ever gets too hot, half my lights cut off for 30 min while my room ac gets me back down below 90.

Not real fancy but it works great, if any room approaches 90, bam half the lights are off!

I also have them on my CO2 burner as well.

Cheers

 

[ttystikk]

Hey fellows here is what I did so none of my rooms every get too hot and never miss a light cycle due to a high temp shut off...

I run Powerbox DPC15000's for a load center and I had them wire up the trigger cord for a high temp shut off, that works great but kills the light cycle and I have 2 bloom rooms so it didn't work perfect for my application...

They also make a DPC12000 which has two indpendent banks of power that is designed for 6 lights each on seperate timers. Well I got them to wire each trigger cord for my high temp shut offs and now I have the lights divided in half, per bank, that way if it ever gets too hot, half my lights cut off for 30 min while my room ac gets me back down below 90.

Not real fancy but it works great, if any room approaches 90, bam half the lights are off!

I also have them on my CO2 burner as well.

Cheers

This is an excellent solution, but with one serious potential flaw; if the reason for the high temp. emergency is that your AC failed, shutting off only half the lights won't save your crop. Is there a way to rig the second half of your lights to shut off at a temp a few degrees higher? That would save your crop in the event of total climate control failure.

 

[treebark1950]

I have 2 Mini Splits per room and half of the lights would then be cooled by the extra mini split.

Now that one I'm not 100% sure at the moment, I'll do some playing and find out!

 

[treebark1950]

All on separate legs so if both A/C's were to dump I'm sure I'd lose all my lights and therefore there would be something way worse wrong, as I'd prolly have killed the main breaker!

 

[noone88]

As stated before, every grow room need a high temp shutoff. There are a lot of product choices for this.

Lastly, place automatic fire extinguishers over your:
- electrical panel
- ballasts (if remotely located)

There was a power surge in my area and I saw some crazy fireworks shit at my panel, which caused one of the caps of my ballasts go to nuclear.

 

[mountain]

Any suggestions or info for automated fire extinguisher products?

Regular fire extinguishers on hand are a must as well. The ABC extinguishers are filled with fertilizer salts as it turns out. Potentially life saving - no good reason not to have one at every doorway.

Ballasts can fail and result in sparks and fire hazard without any surges or apparent cause IME.

Alerts for flood detection, lights on problem during dark cycle, and motion detection for break ins would all be valuable parts of a great monitoring system. Timed door knobs to physically prevent accidental entry during dark period are very valuable if more than one person has access or if you are spacey or accident prone.

 

[noone88]

Sunlight carries "Flame Defenders", which are set off by heat. You can probably find similar versions on Amazon since this type of product has been around for years.

It's nice to have an extinguisher, especially if you grow/live in the same spot. But for some people, we only visit our spots once a day at most. I carry one in the car and rely on the automated fire extinguisher and my heat temp shut offs to protect the warehouse when i'm not there.

There are flood detection sensors that will automatically call a phone number if there is a flood or power outage. Again, check Amazon.

 

[mrfixit]

This is an excellent solution, but with one serious potential flaw; if the reason for the high temp. emergency is that your AC failed, shutting off only half the lights won't save your crop. Is there a way to rig the second half of your lights to shut off at a temp a few degrees higher? That would save your crop in the event of total climate control failure.

As an adjunct to this topic within this thread; I don't have automated temp monitoring yet but what I did, for a different reason could be utilized here. I built a contactor box controlled by a 2 outlet cheapie analog timer; the contactor box has 10 min delay trigger relays to prevent restarting hot MH/HPS lamps. Due to occasions of intermittent brownouts during storms around here, that created a scenario where a brownout would reoccur within the delay of the delay timer causing it to reset, which if enough brownouts happened (and they did), could mean no lights for a couple hours (not good).
I tapped the other outlet of the timer to a power strip and run a couple mongo CFL's at the same time; they restart within seconds providing "emergency" light and they run very cool.
So in a thermal event (or multiple power disruptions) you can provide enough light to prevent any real plant stress, while allowing temps to drop if that was the issue...
Just a thought to toss out and here is a pic with the HPS off.

 

[ttystikk]

As an adjunct to this topic within this thread; I don't have automated temp monitoring yet but what I did, for a different reason could be utilized here. I built a contactor box controlled by a 2 outlet cheapie analog timer; the contactor box has 10 min delay trigger relays to prevent restarting hot MH/HPS lamps. Due to occasions of intermittent brownouts during storms around here, that created a scenario where a brownout would reoccur within the delay of the delay timer causing it to reset, which if enough brownouts happened (and they did), could mean no lights for a couple hours (not good).
I tapped the other outlet of the timer to a power strip and run a couple mongo CFL's at the same time; they restart within seconds providing "emergency" light and they run very cool.
So in a thermal event (or multiple power disruptions) you can provide enough light to prevent any real plant stress, while allowing temps to drop if that was the issue...
Just a thought to toss out and here is a pic with the HPS off.

A couple issues here; I like the instant on CFL lights to keep the plants from being fooled by multiple blackouts happening in quick succession. Do those stay on all the time under normal circumstances?

Second, I keep hearing people referring to short duration power outages as 'brownouts', and this is incorrect. A BROWNOUT is when the power company deliberately runs the grid undervoltage by up to 8% to stretch available capacity to cover short periods of very high loads; this is often their last trick before being forced to resort to rolling blackouts. These brownouts place additional stress on electronics, especially ballasts, transformers and power supplies and the devices they control like computers. The power supply attempts to correct the undervoltage and ends up pulling MORE power, which I'm willing to bet the power company is charging you for, even though they didn't provide the proper voltage in the first place!

A BLACKOUT is any power interruption, even those lasting for only a second or two. The two are not the same.

For data centers and installations requiring high reliability power, the standard tactic is the use of uninterruptible power supplies, smaller versions of which are known as 'battery backups'. They come in all sizes from little ones to handle your laptop to monsters that run banks of batteries and even have their own gnerators. These would be impractically expensive to use to cover for indoor growroom lighting- but to handle pumps, timers and control equipment (and even the odd CFL) they are affordable, effective and easy to install options. As a bonus, almost all UPS units handle power conditioning- rectifying voltage irregularities and even covering for very short duration power outages of a second or less- which has obvious benefits of saving sensitive electronics.

 

[1971]

I have had some issues with the breaker on the chhc-4 tripping for no reason, resulting in the unit shutting off at very inopportune times. I ended up building my own high temp cutoff to be safe. Now if my a/c goes off and the room hits a particular temp, it kills the lights until it is reset. It would seem with other units on the market, it only turns off the lights till the temp drops and then turns them back on, which doesn't seem like a fix for the problem.

 

[noone88]

I experienced the same issue when I had the CHHC-4. You can swap out the breaker in the Sentinel products for something a bit more durable. Unfortunately, the sentinel controllers devices are rated up to 15 amp max. You add in a few fans and a high amp dehumidifier and the controller will stop working.

I try to separate all my controllers devices, but they are all piggybacked by whether or not there are lights on in the room. My dehumidifer is controlled by a Lights-off switch. My humidifier is controlled by a Lights-on switch. I use the CPPM-4 which has a Light-on sensor. This is all controlled by the MDT-1 or the HID-2.

 

[mrfixit]

A couple issues here; I like the instant on CFL lights to keep the plants from being fooled by multiple blackouts happening in quick succession. Do those stay on all the time under normal circumstances?

Second, I keep hearing people referring to short duration power outages as 'brownouts', and this is incorrect. A BROWNOUT is when the power company deliberately runs the grid undervoltage by up to 8% to stretch available capacity to cover short periods of very high loads; this is often their last trick before being forced to resort to rolling blackouts. These brownouts place additional stress on electronics, especially ballasts, transformers and power supplies and the devices they control like computers. The power supply attempts to correct the undervoltage and ends up pulling MORE power, which I'm willing to bet the power company is charging you for, even though they didn't provide the proper voltage in the first place!

A BLACKOUT is any power interruption, even those lasting for only a second or two. The two are not the same.

For data centers and installations requiring high reliability power, the standard tactic is the use of uninterruptible power supplies, smaller versions of which are known as 'battery backups'. They come in all sizes from little ones to handle your laptop to monsters that run banks of batteries and even have their own gnerators. These would be impractically expensive to use to cover for indoor growroom lighting- but to handle pumps, timers and control equipment (and even the odd CFL) they are affordable, effective and easy to install options. As a bonus, almost all UPS units handle power conditioning- rectifying voltage irregularities and even covering for very short duration power outages of a second or less- which has obvious benefits of saving sensitive electronics.

Yes, the 2 CFL's are on whenever the bloom lighting is on; they are 105w 65k 6300 lumen (~400w compared to incandescent) and provide some blue spectrum during flowering and may get used exclusively for the last couple days before harvest for "hardening". In my veg area they are also mixed in with my 400w MH (with different K spectrum's).

As to brownout/blackout, these are intermittent "sags"; enough to reset most digital devices but not long enough in duration (usually) to kill analog devices like incandescent bulbs (they just briefly "dim"). Common enough in my older neighborhood during high winds/storms. Luckily I don't live in an area that has to deal with rolling brownouts/blackouts (S.E. Michigan).
I have LOTS of various sized UPS's throughout my house on server/workstations/router/switches and the like, and when I fully automate, will be used there as well.
I also have a small generator (currently in rebuild/repair at the moment) for longer duration events. Enough power to run CFL's/fridge/TV if needed...

 

[ttystikk]

Yes, the 2 CFL's are on whenever the bloom lighting is on; they are 105w 65k 6300 lumen (~400w compared to incandescent) and provide some blue spectrum during flowering and may get used exclusively for the last couple days before harvest for "hardening". In my veg area they are also mixed in with my 400w MH (with different K spectrum's).

As to brownout/blackout, these are intermittent "sags"; enough to reset most digital devices but not long enough in duration (usually) to kill analog devices like incandescent bulbs (they just briefly "dim"). Common enough in my older neighborhood during high winds/storms. Luckily I don't live in an area that has to deal with rolling brownouts/blackouts (S.E. Michigan).
I have LOTS of various sized UPS's throughout my house on server/workstations/router/switches and the like, and when I fully automate, will be used there as well.
I also have a small generator (currently in rebuild/repair at the moment) for longer duration events. Enough power to run CFL's/fridge/TV if needed...

Then I'm preaching to the chior! I did some math and discovered that I could use a surprisingly small UPS to keep my grow room alive in the event of a prolonged power failure. First, set your air and water pumps in an RDWC environment to run for 5-15 minutes on, and up to an hour off. This alone reduces load by up to 75%, or depending on how you look at it, extends the run time by a factor of four.

Those power 'sags' and other momentary glitches are just dirty power, and often don't fall cleanly into either of the above categories. UPS and power conditioners help a lot with these situations too. As does a whole whole surge suppressor.

Perhaps you might look into solar panels as an onsite power generation option? They're pretty durable and don't need gas to generate electricity. Downsides are obvious, including no power at night, but it would still be very useful.

 

[1971]

I experienced the same issue when I had the CHHC-4. You can swap out the breaker in the Sentinel products for something a bit more durable. Unfortunately, the sentinel controllers devices are rated up to 15 amp max. You add in a few fans and a high amp dehumidifier and the controller will stop working.

I try to separate all my controllers devices, but they are all piggybacked by whether or not there are lights on in the room. My dehumidifer is controlled by a Lights-off switch. My humidifier is controlled by a Lights-on switch. I use the CPPM-4 which has a Light-on sensor. This is all controlled by the MDT-1 or the HID-2.

interestingly I swapped out the switch/breaker and still had issues. It also only happened on my smaller analog a/c. I ended up using a relay, not the one that was given to me by sentinel, and it works fine now. go figure.

 

[mountain]

Got a look and the Sentinel HID-2 HID's are pretty nice. Seems to be good construction, and other sentinel products at least have held up to the test of time.

Easy to program.

Included custom settable hot restart delay, and custom settable high temp shutoff. Settable delay between the two outlets to avoid breaker overload.

Buttons are not easily accidentally pushed if someone brushes up against or bumps the unit.

The internal breaker does seem a bit weak. Wouldnt recommend using it without external relays - a must in most situations anyhow at 15 amps.

Lots of lights on it and the external heat sensor. They are all various shades of green LED's, but not sure about all that light on during dark periods and possible hermies as a result if its mounted inside a room. An option to turn off the LED's and run dark would be very nice - or an option for all of the LEDs to go dark during the off period.

Not the most intuitive controls for overriding the timed program to turn lights on and off manually for foliar, but not to hard to work out with some persistence or tracking down the instructions.

 

[mountain]

Been checking out the automatic fire extinguishers - seem like a good idea. Something like this:

http://www.gulfoilandgas.com/webpro1/prod1/Products.asp?id=3892

or something that hooks up to existing co2 if in place would be nice in that it wouldnt leave a mess and ruin everything. Of courese the abc type might be more effective and effectiveness is probably more important than avoiding a mess (bigger mess if the system doesnt work and it all burns down).

 

[mountain]

In the event of a hi temp shutdown CFL's or something to keep the room from going dark and causing stress seems like a great idea. Not sure of an easy way to implement except to put the CFLs on a separate timer and have them on all the time during the light period. CFL's continue to glow for at least 30 min after they are turned off, so would likely want the timer set to turn off 30-50 min before the dark was to begin. Or use incandescents that dont keep glowing after you turn them off - not sure how easy it is to get 100w incandescents any more...