V
vancerz
- 204
- 18
I cant +rep you anymore but thanks for the link yo! very interesting read.
I cant +rep you anymore but thanks for the link yo! very interesting read.
GanjaGardener
- 848
- 63
You can always give one of his to me if you've got extras. I'm sure CTGuy will be cool w/ it. :cool0010:
Better yet, why don't you give it to SeaMaiden instead as I haven't been able to rep her for awhile either and she continually dazzles the mind.
Only if you have an extra one that you don't mind letting go of, of course. LOL ;-)
PS Still assimilating Agricola's rap.
C
CT Guy
- 252
- 18
Jeff's an old friend of mine so I thought I'd throw this up as well:
Soil Biology and pH by Jeff Lowenfels
The success of the AeroGarden, the first plug-and-grow aeroponic kitchen appliance, is testament to the fact that ordinary people do not understand the concept of pH and don't want to deal with it in their growing situations. Make it so you can practice hydroponics without this chemistry barrier and they will come, apparently.
Frankly, the concept of pH also confuses soil gardeners. Heck, the definition of pH was inadvertently reversed in my book "Teaming With Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web." (Yes, some readers noticed; I received two "you made a mistake" notes. But that's not as many as I thought I'd receive.) Fortunately, the mistake was corrected in time for the second printing.
In any case, soil gardeners have been told certain plants require acidic conditions- for example, rhododendrons and azaleas- or else they won't grow. The solution advocated by most experienced gardeners is not dissimilar from what a hydroponics grower would do: adjust the pH with chemicals, such as agricultural lime, to make the soil more alkaline. To make alkaline soil more acid, we are told to add sulfur. Because they are chemical changes, these solutions work for a short time. But to me pH is a biological matter.
A bit of quick pH review is in order (if only to make amends for the mistake in my book). You may remember that pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution on a scale of 1 to 14; 1 being most acidic and 14 being most alkaline. A more technical description is that pH is the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions, H+. If you have lots of H+, the pH is low, or acidic. If you have few of them, the pH is high, or alkaline.
If you are adding fertilizers and using chemicals, you are stuck in the chemical realm. Organic gardeners, soil food webbies in particular, realize that pH has more to do with biology than it does with chemistry. That's because of the way plant roots take up nutrients. Root hair surfaces are covered with positive electrical hydrogen cations. Think of these charges as ping-pong balls. If soil particles are small enough, their surfaces are covered by these ping-pong ball charges, both positive (cation) charges and negative (anion) charges. These cations are not limited to hydrogen; they also include calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, and ammonium. All are important plant nutrients.
When a root encounters a clay or organic particle, it can exchange one of its hydrogen cation for another positive one from the particle. It can choose from calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, ammonium and hydrogen, as these are all cations carried by clay and silt and are all, as luck would have it, major plant nutrients.
This is known, incidentally, as cation exchange capacity, or CEC. Sand and silt have low CECs, because they comprised of particles that are too large to hold electrical charges. This is why humus and clay are needed to make soil good. They are extremely small particles and can carry cations.
So, back to pH. Every time a plant root exchanges a hydrogen ion for a nutrient ion, it increases the concentration of hydrogen ions in solution. Thus, the pH goes down and things should become more acidic.
Ah, but things usually balance out because the positive cations on the root surface also attract negative charges. Here, hydroxy ions (OH-) are the exchange ping-pong balls, and addition of hydroxy ions lowers the concentration of hydrogen ions in the solution, and pH goes up.
I know this still sounds like chemistry and not biology. However, each plant has an optimum pH requirement. What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don't) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant's rhizosphere by the plant's exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.
So, while you may forget the chemistry of pH, at least remember there is a biological side. Do no harm to it, and you shouldn't have to worry much about pH when you grow plants in soil. Moreover, the nutrient exchanges that occur above also have a lot to do with what kind of bacteria and fungi are attracted to the root zone as some like higher pH and others lower pH.
Soil Biology and pH by Jeff Lowenfels
The success of the AeroGarden, the first plug-and-grow aeroponic kitchen appliance, is testament to the fact that ordinary people do not understand the concept of pH and don't want to deal with it in their growing situations. Make it so you can practice hydroponics without this chemistry barrier and they will come, apparently.
Frankly, the concept of pH also confuses soil gardeners. Heck, the definition of pH was inadvertently reversed in my book "Teaming With Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web." (Yes, some readers noticed; I received two "you made a mistake" notes. But that's not as many as I thought I'd receive.) Fortunately, the mistake was corrected in time for the second printing.
In any case, soil gardeners have been told certain plants require acidic conditions- for example, rhododendrons and azaleas- or else they won't grow. The solution advocated by most experienced gardeners is not dissimilar from what a hydroponics grower would do: adjust the pH with chemicals, such as agricultural lime, to make the soil more alkaline. To make alkaline soil more acid, we are told to add sulfur. Because they are chemical changes, these solutions work for a short time. But to me pH is a biological matter.
A bit of quick pH review is in order (if only to make amends for the mistake in my book). You may remember that pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution on a scale of 1 to 14; 1 being most acidic and 14 being most alkaline. A more technical description is that pH is the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions, H+. If you have lots of H+, the pH is low, or acidic. If you have few of them, the pH is high, or alkaline.
If you are adding fertilizers and using chemicals, you are stuck in the chemical realm. Organic gardeners, soil food webbies in particular, realize that pH has more to do with biology than it does with chemistry. That's because of the way plant roots take up nutrients. Root hair surfaces are covered with positive electrical hydrogen cations. Think of these charges as ping-pong balls. If soil particles are small enough, their surfaces are covered by these ping-pong ball charges, both positive (cation) charges and negative (anion) charges. These cations are not limited to hydrogen; they also include calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, and ammonium. All are important plant nutrients.
When a root encounters a clay or organic particle, it can exchange one of its hydrogen cation for another positive one from the particle. It can choose from calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, ammonium and hydrogen, as these are all cations carried by clay and silt and are all, as luck would have it, major plant nutrients.
This is known, incidentally, as cation exchange capacity, or CEC. Sand and silt have low CECs, because they comprised of particles that are too large to hold electrical charges. This is why humus and clay are needed to make soil good. They are extremely small particles and can carry cations.
So, back to pH. Every time a plant root exchanges a hydrogen ion for a nutrient ion, it increases the concentration of hydrogen ions in solution. Thus, the pH goes down and things should become more acidic.
Ah, but things usually balance out because the positive cations on the root surface also attract negative charges. Here, hydroxy ions (OH-) are the exchange ping-pong balls, and addition of hydroxy ions lowers the concentration of hydrogen ions in the solution, and pH goes up.
I know this still sounds like chemistry and not biology. However, each plant has an optimum pH requirement. What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don't) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant's rhizosphere by the plant's exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.
So, while you may forget the chemistry of pH, at least remember there is a biological side. Do no harm to it, and you shouldn't have to worry much about pH when you grow plants in soil. Moreover, the nutrient exchanges that occur above also have a lot to do with what kind of bacteria and fungi are attracted to the root zone as some like higher pH and others lower pH.
U
Udyana Peace
- 133
- 0
Good read and information.
I know a bit about growing plants that are 'acid loving' (blueberries) on a semi-commercial level (organically) and I/we never, ever added 'acid' amendments that are usually suggested like cottonseed meal.
Plenty of humus coupled with correct mineral balance(s) and straight-up soil amendments achieved the results we needed to earn a profit.
UP
I know a bit about growing plants that are 'acid loving' (blueberries) on a semi-commercial level (organically) and I/we never, ever added 'acid' amendments that are usually suggested like cottonseed meal.
Plenty of humus coupled with correct mineral balance(s) and straight-up soil amendments achieved the results we needed to earn a profit.
UP
G
gooey
- 702
- 63
nice post amigo...thanks for sharing.peace
Blaze
- 2,006
- 263
Yeah that is some great info there CT- been wondering lately about organic pH adjustment. Good thread all around, definitely learned quite a few new things.
U
Udyana Peace
- 133
- 0
CT_Guy
Soil scientists more often than not write out elemental Calcium as Ca++ to indicate that Calcium carries 2 'extra' exchange sites (positive charge) which allows for a single Calcium molecule to be exchanged for 2 Hydrogen molecules. In the CeC dynamic, Hydrogen is a form of payment (exchange) for cations needed by the plant. As Jeff wrote, plants exude Hydrogen for this exchange.
This is 'the why' Calcium plays a major role in a soil's pH numbers, the 'two for one' deal with Hydrogen. Magnesium also carries these 'extra' exchange sites but adding high levels of Magnesium results in more problems than simple pH numbers. Like soil compaction among others.
Which is why, once again, I do not understand the recommendation by many to use Dolomite Lime as a 'liming agent' in that the Calcium is the elemental form - fair enough. I think that Calcium Carbonate is a better choice but whatever.
BUT the Magnesium is in a complicated molecular structure in the form of Magnesium Carbonate which is not water soluble like other forms of Magnesium (sulphate of potash magnesia, epsom salts, etc.)
Until that Magnesium bond with the Calcium is broken by microbial activity neither elements are available to the plant's roots.
Once again that is.................
UP
GanjaGardener
- 848
- 63
As a follow-up and in the spirit of community, this is the letter that I sent off to Cal Poly. Also summarizes some of my work w/ fermentation.
GanjaGardener
- 848
- 63
A couple of corrections and additions (that I should've made before hitting send) and will take any further discussion to a fermentation thread that dextr0 (now that we've made amends) was helping along. Fermentation is a busy topic in it's own right and I don't want to muddy the waters of this discussion. Showed the picture of my rustic set-up because it demonstrates a bottling station and it was created using recycled materials.
Last time I was around academia was as a grad school student over 30 years ago. To make things worse, my major was in theatre, (set/lighting design), so I honestly have no idea how an ag science dept. would typically respond to an inquiry like the one I've made. I may be charging at windmills for all I know. Was hoping for some input from someone closer to that scene than I am.
Clarification: I use the FPJ as a base, but more often as an addie to aerated teas. The nute schedule is controlled by the teas.
Am filtering new batch through 5 gal pails of of perlite, (RH's in future)- the perlite absorbs some bios/nutes- leaves a cleaner/clearer extract.
Left out these ingredients- worm castings- among other things, it helps the N keep pace in the N-P-K ratio; aloe- leftover "waste" from separate extraction. Something in there likes it- can tell by the activity/bubbles around the green material when added.
Am interested in the cation exchange discussion- particularly the applied science as it pertains to cannabis and container growing but also realize that the re/mineralization of a variety of outdoor substrates is of equal importance to other/all growers, as well.
PS I knew I forgot something. Whiteflies showed up for the first time during the end of the current run, (2nd full run w/ FPJ) This could've been a result of having put some of the plants outdoors to catch some fresh air and sunshine. Does confirm that I have a lot to nail down if I want to do a proper clinical study and frankly, that's a big "if".
Last time I was around academia was as a grad school student over 30 years ago. To make things worse, my major was in theatre, (set/lighting design), so I honestly have no idea how an ag science dept. would typically respond to an inquiry like the one I've made. I may be charging at windmills for all I know. Was hoping for some input from someone closer to that scene than I am.
Clarification: I use the FPJ as a base, but more often as an addie to aerated teas. The nute schedule is controlled by the teas.
Am filtering new batch through 5 gal pails of of perlite, (RH's in future)- the perlite absorbs some bios/nutes- leaves a cleaner/clearer extract.
Left out these ingredients- worm castings- among other things, it helps the N keep pace in the N-P-K ratio; aloe- leftover "waste" from separate extraction. Something in there likes it- can tell by the activity/bubbles around the green material when added.
Am interested in the cation exchange discussion- particularly the applied science as it pertains to cannabis and container growing but also realize that the re/mineralization of a variety of outdoor substrates is of equal importance to other/all growers, as well.
PS I knew I forgot something. Whiteflies showed up for the first time during the end of the current run, (2nd full run w/ FPJ) This could've been a result of having put some of the plants outdoors to catch some fresh air and sunshine. Does confirm that I have a lot to nail down if I want to do a proper clinical study and frankly, that's a big "if".
dextr0
- 1,675
- 163
dont know if it was posted but heres a link:
The Cation-Anion Connection
The Cation-Anion Connection
GanjaGardener
- 848
- 63
Thanks for the link dextr0. Good to see you again. High tides and green grass ahead.
C
canolution
- 52
- 6
SWEET bro i like your grow i am starting a log to i am gonna update it with videos i could sure value you input
C
CT Guy
- 252
- 18
Post a link and I'll check it out! Good luck!
UP has already posted some info on his mixes in another thread, which is very similar to what I'm doing. He's a wealth of information! :)
GanjaGardener
- 848
- 63
I'm going to the concession stand. Anyone else want a bag of popcorn while I'm there?
S
Shredder
- 106
- 18
Take mr mystic with you.....Shredder
GanjaGardener
- 848
- 63
just dropped him off in the ladies room. (it's true, they are messier than us. BTW.) :giggle
sure do wish that THCF would get one of those avatars w/ the guy chowing down on popcorn. did you hear that mods?
U
Udyana Peace
- 133
- 0
I'm going to buy the entire line! If it's good enough for da boyz in Cali then I'd better jump on this band wagon.
Therefore the following are for sale:
Kelp meal
Karanja meal
Neem meal
organic fish meal (Naturox)
organic fish bone meal
crustacean meal
organic alfalfa meal
organic flax seed meal
organic sunflower meal
organic canola meal
glacial rock dust
organic oyster shell powder
organic compost
organic earthworm castings
soft rock phosphate
Why bother will all that when I can get a bottle of ammonium sulfate at 20x the wholesale price?
UP
Therefore the following are for sale:
Kelp meal
Karanja meal
Neem meal
organic fish meal (Naturox)
organic fish bone meal
crustacean meal
organic alfalfa meal
organic flax seed meal
organic sunflower meal
organic canola meal
glacial rock dust
organic oyster shell powder
organic compost
organic earthworm castings
soft rock phosphate
Why bother will all that when I can get a bottle of ammonium sulfate at 20x the wholesale price?
UP
GanjaGardener
- 848
- 63
!!! :fixed:
Love the list, UP. The good stuff in a tight, comprehensive format.
I've got some mineral rich tap water for sale too, if anyone's interested. It's got a great looking label designed by an authentic 'ol hippie, if I do say so myself.
Love the list, UP. The good stuff in a tight, comprehensive format.
I've got some mineral rich tap water for sale too, if anyone's interested. It's got a great looking label designed by an authentic 'ol hippie, if I do say so myself.
Seamaiden
Living dead girl
- 23,596
- 638
My local feed store has basically refused to even try to source feed grade molasses for me. I'm pissed. I tried to get A&M. Well, you can get "grain hay" & M (M=molasses), but not alfalfal (alfalfa = A) and molasses. And it's no longer sold in 100lb bags, it's 50lb bags for double the cost I remember from when I was a kid. Same thing with the alfalfa pellets.
These nutrients are not bottled. :D
These nutrients are not bottled. :D
C
CT Guy
- 252
- 18
You have got to be joking....this guy definitely did not even read my original post!:confused0054:
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