Breeding for whorls

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geologic

geologic

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All TriCots/QuadCots are whorled phyllotaxy (phyllotactic???Heh),
but not all whorled phyllotaxy plants start out as Tri/"multi"Cots--
they show the trait later in life...

<careful, I tend to make-up words; Sativied will explain better>
 
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Sativied

Sativied

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secondly, how often do you get seeds like this in your ventures and how often does it continue to be a whorl?
I actually never had one of those, mine all start out as dicots, and the ones I refer to as strong or early whorlers start whorling around the 4th-5th node.

how often does it continue to be a whorl?
While mine sort of grow into a tri, a tricot has whorled phyllotaxy from the very start and can actually grow out of it and revert to regular. It's what a breeder active in other forums worked on with his 'bruised nuts' strain. So it will always become a whorl, especially the first several nodes, and after that, once mature and alternating it will likely become a neat spiral.

It 'is' a different mutation but similar outcome. Tricots are tri in the seed already, so the embryo developed like that on its mother plant.

1979..., sounds good man, keep us posted. Congrats, and thanks for sharing :)
 
geologic

geologic

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Buncha bluegrass hillbilly music an' The Dead, no Frank;
but lotsa tricots, quadcots, fasciated plants poppin' up back then--
the gold/red Colombian square grouper/square pig herb had many mutations...
 
Sativied

Sativied

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Seeds of the quad male on the best tri, coming along very nicely:
Seededtri
 
homebrew420

homebrew420

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Are the plants you are looking for, ALWAYS start as a whorled, or trifoliate? I have one currently that I just noticed is doing that. I will check on branching whether or not they too do this. I believe that is where the traits should be seen if its genetic. imo.

Good luck brother
 
Sativied

Sativied

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what day ? Did you pull those males from the room
I don't know the day exactly, depends on how much pollen I collected from them AND how many balls opened already. I don't leave them in the same room to pollinate the females. Instead I remove the first preflowers so they don't pop, then let the rest mature far enough that I can cut off branches and put those in a glass of water, from which I collect pollen for nearly a week. I keep the males a little longer in my living room under daylight. I kill them after I know pollination was successful.

If I let the males in there for an orgy I won't know which males produces which seed. The females I currently have, have marked branches, with pollen from 1 male each. Not 100% but since the plants are in pots this round (instead of my hydro setup) I can move them out and pollinate them separately and rather controlled.
 
soserthc1

soserthc1

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Roger that , just curios as to what ya look for when you pull them
I've been trying to keep a few males in the flower room as long as possible ( due to space issues) but I tend to pull them way to early due to nervousness that they will pollinate the crop.
Which in turn a lot of times I am unable to collect pollen
A detailed explanation of your process would be appreciated.
Trying to come up with my best method for doing this without tossing a tent in another area thou I'm thinking it's probably my best option
 
Sativied

Sativied

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I've been trying to keep a few males in the flower room as long as possible ( due to space issues)
...
A detailed explanation of your process would be appreciated
Then I will provide one later today or tomorrow. My methods are evolving, but what I did this run worked out very well and I'd be happy to share it. I went from getting way too little seeds (2 lol) to way too many (2000-ish) to the amount I want for now from a single plant (50-100), which requires only 1 pollinated flower, one almost-sucker-branch on the side.
 
Muckman420

Muckman420

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I noticed it hermied, idk if it's strange or not but its alternating male on one side of the node and female on the other side, the picture isn't that great...
Image
 
Sativied

Sativied

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Let me say up front that I personally don't care a whole lot if I get some seeds in the buds I don't pollinate, I don't mind finding seeds while crumbling buds. And I don't sell anyway. I don't keep the offspring from all females, i.e. seeds I find in buds from plants that were merely fillers and/or didn't turn out to be the best. I also want to know, in most cases anyway, which male produced the pollen for a given branch of seeds. While I can't know for sure a bud I pollinated only contains pollen from one of the males, I can be sure I have no idea which male is the dad for seeds I find in buds I didn't pollinate and mark. So I dispose most of those, or use them for germination experiments or whatever.

That said, I do try to avoid getting more seeds than I want.

I use the following (or similar, like from old photo camera rolls or cake candy, or cannabis seeds) to store the pollen, but also to collect it:
Vials

Just as one branch on a female can produce a lot of seeds, a single male branch is enough to collect pollen. That doesn't mean I flower a single branch only, but I do prune the males heavily once I determined the difference between the best males, I essentially lollipop them by removing most of the lower branches before all the balls start popping open. The best branches of those I put in a glass of water (like 3 or 4 small branches of 10" max). "Best" being the ones with most and largest balls.

The males balls have a little stem itself which slightly stretches while the ball grows. Especially the first balls, including the preflowers, that have enough space, will dangle before they open in to a small umbrella with bananas below it. Those bananas will be tightly together at first. Shortly after they open I grab one of those vials, and hold it below the ball, move it upwards around the bananas, and wiggle it - just a little bit. If the bananas stick together and no pollen pours in the vial it's a little too soon, and I try again a few hours later. If they come loose from each other and drop pollen I continue to wiggle the bananas against the inner side of the vial.

Sounds a bit like a hassle I know, but I spill very little pollen while harvesting and I don't have to collect it and transfer it to a different container (risking more spilling).

I do that while the males are still in the flower room, and with the branches, and with the males again after I moved it to the living room. I had the branches on 18/6 (in my clone/preveg) box this time, and the males in the living room (behind the window) are also on a different light schedule so I'm not particularly careful. I had male branches in a mini cabinet under 15w CFL as well, works fine too.

An easier alternative would be to simply remove the first 10-20 balls (like preflowers) before they open (when they are large and dangle), while the males are still in the closet. After collecting the pollen the ball/umbrella/male flower dies, so by the time I remove the males I basically have no balls that are about to pop. After that I continue to collect pollen for about a week, I actually usually end up using pollen I grab from the branches or the males when I need it, the initial collection is just to get some pollen as back up and/or to store.

So in short: by trimming heavily and harvesting the first balls (or removing) I avoid having to manage a male with 1-3 balls each on a dozen or more branches about to pop, and instead have a few branches with many balls of roughly the same age.


I used several different methods to pollinate the females, including brushes and filling small zip bags with pollen (so it attaches to the inside) and pulling those over a flower. This round I was able to remove the females from the closet too because the separate soil pots instead of hydro setup. I took a female to another room and pollinated a flower on each side of the plant (two different males, marking each pollinated branch accordingly), and put it back (fans off, but exhaust on), and repeated that for 8 more. I can see there are a couple of seeds in buds I didn't pollinate but just a couple of them. If you really want to avoid the pollen from spreading to other buds, spray the bud down 3-4 hours after pollinating it, aim a fan on it and put it back. I haven't tried this myself yet, I'm in a humid climate and rather not spray anything on my plants during flower, but it's surprisingly (checked with a few people I trust) not an uncommon practice.

Became a little longer than planned but I hope this helps @soserthc1
 
Sativied

Sativied

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I noticed it hermied, idk if it's strange or not but its alternating male on one side of the node and female on the other side, the picture isn't that great..
Sucks, sorry to hear that. One of the best tris I had before the current ones anyway, CHxICE, the one I called IH#5 turned out to be a full blown hermie too.
 
soserthc1

soserthc1

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Appreciate the 411 pretty much what I was doing except the vial / container around the balls which actually seems like a good idea
My issue has been just pulling way to early and sufficient light on them after pulling to early as I don't want seeded bud besides my intentions . I have a custom box i made with a large 300 watt cfl in it which should work well going forward.

My other challenge now is trying to determine the males earlier as I prefer to keep male plants natural as apposed to topping/fimming but I suppose I could chop away the excess limbs once determining the strong males .
Thanks again
 
Sativied

Sativied

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Not sure I posted these before but for examples:

Almost ready to harvest (or remove before it pops)
Mh1 empty almost


Next one is on the late side, and definitely ready to harvest, tapping it against the inside of the vial will make it pour out the pollen. Transparent vial so you can see it.
Mh1b


Shortly after harvesting:
Mh1 emptysack


The main challenge ime with the vial is not being so rough that the entire flower drops in the vial too, but apart from that it's easy to get a good amount of pollen this way.

Two more ready to harvest:
Mh1
 
Sativied

Sativied

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My current run still has a few weeks to go (3 roughly) so it's time to pop seeds for the next round, the P-F3 seeds.

I'm going to use most seeds from the swan and some from #4 (one of the small I had in hempy), both from the F2 gen. The swan is closest to my end goal, the #4 is sweet skunky and is closer as a candidate for my initial goal (sweet skunk x ch). The more stable the F3 turns out to be the more plants I will use for the F4 as to not narrow the profile more than needed.

I still have a clone from the swan, a monstercrop clone, as in revegged, which I may add too.

Last round I had a Late Night which I pollinated with the P-F2 males, probably going to run at least 1 females of those, for fun.

Not going as smooth as hydro runs but sticking with soil for a while. Larger pots sooner, less worm shit, and basic mineral nutes next time.

Going to pop 40 seeds, veg 36 plants and work towards flowering 9 females and 1-3 males. Will top and crop this run, 4 colas per plant, 6x6 in total.

First up is seedling frost test :D
 
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