Breeding for whorls

Muckman420 · Jan 22, 2015

Sounds Epic!

Muckman420 · Jan 22, 2015

I don't want to gum up you're thread too much but i wanted this out in the open for everyone.

Out of my plants I have a tahoe hermie, King Louie hermie, and a space queen hermie :/ don't know what I did but I did it and was very curious how stable/unstable could they be if crossed?

One can only assume if they produce viable seeds they may or may not contain a great cross. The plants them selves have had minimal issues, they were mislabeled clones so they may not all be what I believe, the fact I hermied out clones with little visible damage I would again assume I had a light leak of sorts or my gf and her brother bickering in the room while I was tending the garden. I did take a few pictures in the dark before I read not too, I also used the green bulb a few times so I could see my gauges blah blah...

Please, thoughts or questions, advice and so forth are greatly appreciated mate ;) I'll even send you some beans if you want after I see how this goes.

Sativied · Jan 23, 2015

Structure of the plant in the second pic looks very nice, almost male-like.

Muckman420 said:
Out of my plants I have a tahoe hermie, King Louie hermie, and a space queen hermie :/ don't know what I did but I did it and was very curious how stable/unstable could they be if crossed?

What some of the offspring likely inherits is the ability to herm under similar circumstances, they are not guaranteed to produce hermies, but, hermie is the first and main trait one should imo select "against". If you pollinate them, or the offspring in future generations, with a male, while there are hermies with just a couple of balls or nanners, it'll be impossible to tell which females are from seeds from the hermies and which from a male parent.

Hermies can produce seeds that create excellent plants but I'd never use them for a breeding project unless it has something unique to offer, which is rarely really the case with the crosses of crosses of crosses of the same old classics. Probably not what you were hoping to hear, but in short, I wouldn't use them to create seeds and would probably kill the plants and start over. Checking buds for balls and nanners every day or two becomes a pita quickly.

Muckman420 · Jan 23, 2015

very appreciated, I'm going to put them out back and see what they make. If it sucks after 40 or so beans if they grow I'll toss them, I really want to experiment with these, I have good solid females budding.

I also read on here somewhere the could create a fem seed since they obviously stressed out enough to herm from female clones.

I guess I'll be playin in the dirt to see how this goes.

Ps I wasn't going to kill these he she's this round, I need the meds and can turn it into hash which is why I was going to keep the seeds.

Sativied · Jan 23, 2015

Muckman420 said:
Ps I wasn't going to kill these he she's this round, I need the meds and can turn it into hash which is why I was going to keep the seeds.

Completely understand.

Muckman420 said:
could create a fem seed since

Not just "could", if you use pollen from the male flowers from a hermied female to pollinate the same female or another, you will get feminized seed. That's essentially how fem seed is created. But then ideally you pick a female that didn't hermie because of stress or worse was a genetic/monoecious hermie, but the opposite, pick one that doesn't herm, or at least not easily, and then use CS or STS for example to reverse/herm a branch on the female.

Muckman420 · Jan 23, 2015

So, could I take pollen from a hermie plant and paint a good female branch in my room I could get great to mediocre seeds?

If that's the case I'm glad I kept them. Thanks @Sativied

Sativied · Jan 23, 2015

Yes that's the case. They can turn out to produce amazing plants, will be fem, and "can" be hermies. If you find a keeper in seeds from hermie pollen you certainly wouldn't be the first.

Muckman420 · Jan 23, 2015

ill keep you posted, thanks mate

MrBelvedere · Jan 23, 2015

@Sativied this is amazing work, great job. I'm curious why you think it will not yield more? Why wouldn't more flowers increase the yield? Thx

Sativied · Jan 24, 2015

Mostly because that in practice just was not the case. My thoughts on that are not conclusive though, in the current run I can clearly see all the tri whorled plants, those who stayed whorled and those who started spiraling, produce at least the same or larger main cola than the others, pretty much 50% larger along the bottom 2/3 of the cola (because of that third flower).

MrBelvedere said:
Why wouldn't more flowers increase the yield?

One theory is because in the bud sites there aren't necessarily more flowers, just differently arranged. Another is that there are possible other bottlenecks (amount of roots, stem size etc) that limit the yield more than the different flower arrangement can add.

So my current thoughts on that is that some triwhorled "can" yield higher than regular solely for being whorled, but isn't necessarily the case by default.

The more stable my whorled line gets in terms of other traits, the better I will be able to observe the differences. Like the spiral has a very very nice internode spacing, but there's a regular that looks very similar.

On a side note, my current grow isn't going very well... As I worried from the started, I think I may have overdone it a little with the worm castings. I have a phosphor deficiency (that's a first...) and I can't add nutrients without burning them because watering them thoroughly only increases the release of nutrients, at least, that's what it seems like.

Temps still bad at night... I don't think this one will end pretty and I miss my tubes :)

Sativied · Jan 24, 2015

These are actually the unsorted ones I'm not using but they look the same :)

Not tiger but king cheetah stripes

geologic · Jan 24, 2015

Purrdy...

Muckman420 · Jan 24, 2015

I'm gonna paint a King Louie branch with some space queen pollen, question though, how will I know when the seeds are ripe enough to take the plants down? Will it be roughly the same as guaging when the buds are done?

MrBelvedere · Jan 24, 2015

The seeds will start out yellowish white color when they're immature, as they mature they get a darker brown color in a harder husk shell. And they look like a normal seed. And yes they should be done at approximately the same time as the bud. you have to be careful to paint the branch at the correct week of the flower cycle otherwise the seed will not have time to mature.

Sativied · Jan 24, 2015

Muckman420 said:
Will it be roughly the same as guaging when the buds are done?

They are in my case, so far, always ready before the buds are ready. And like MrB said, they get darker and harder, you can see them (the calyx the seed is in cracks open a little). I pollinate simply put 'before the calyxes start swelling up', so I pollinate pistil pompons.

Muckman420 · Jan 24, 2015

Sativied said:
They are in my case, so far, always ready before the buds are ready. And like MrB said, they get darker and harder, you can see them (the calyx the seed is in cracks open a little). I pollinate simply put 'before the calyxes start swelling up', so I pollinate pistil pompons.

Bah i need to quit picking balls off then, cuz my pompoms are getting bigger, how long before the balls open? I have not let them grow multi Berrys yet, the biggest ball I have pulled so far was roughly the size of an immature seed.

What color should the pollen be when viable or is it plant specific?

Sativied · Jan 24, 2015

Rough, but they open around the time they are the size of a medium-large mature seed. They open up like an umbrella first, after that there's still some time, I guess 2-6 hours before they really drop pollen.

The pollen is very light yellow, varies a little. A little bit of pollen can appear to be white but a bunch together will show it's yellow unless it's really not ripe yet, but than it's also more pasty instead of powdery. I dissected bananas in various stages and it takes a while before the bananas actually contain powdery pollen. As you can see in the following, they start out sort of lime green. Once the pollen is mature and ready to drop they will be more yellowish, like in post 278.

Sativied · Jan 24, 2015

Sativied · Jan 28, 2015

P-F3 seedlings:

Means little to nothing at this point but while normally I can already tell some difference (first leaf shape), they all look very very similar (3rd pic is a day older).

Added some to soil and some to small/mini rock wool cubes. Just using some rock wool cubes because I ran out of space, they'll all end up in soil in a day or two.

P is basically the non-whorled line, but wouldn't be surprised if there are a few late whorlers (had a very late tri male in F2).

Not happy with how the current run is going, yellowing too fast, they all got little problems, and the organic nutes I have that work fast enough (BAC flower 6-5-6) doesn't seem to actually help them (has a reputation of burning even at low doses). The round of organics was just for fun anyway, wanted to use some of the nutes I still had. Going to do another round on soil but keep it simple (mineral nutes, so I can steer each individual pot better if needed).

Sativied · Jan 31, 2015

Tri-whorled CHxCH, not the healthiest plant I've grown but that's all me:

That's after 7 weeks 12/12. It's an 8 week strain, although not for all, like the frizzle pheno. Very similar to #20 in the P-F2 last round, but won't swell up as nicely because of the poor soil mix.

Partly seeded smaller bud.

Breeding for whorls

Breeding for whorls

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Breeding for whorls

Breeding for whorls

Muckman420

Muckman420

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Ruler of the Whorled

Muckman420

Sativied

Ruler of the Whorled

Muckman420

Sativied

Ruler of the Whorled

Muckman420

MrBelvedere

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Ruler of the Whorled

Sativied

Ruler of the Whorled

geologic

Old Pharmer

Muckman420

MrBelvedere

Sativied

Ruler of the Whorled

Muckman420

Sativied

Ruler of the Whorled

Sativied

Ruler of the Whorled

Sativied

Ruler of the Whorled

Sativied

Ruler of the Whorled

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