Breeding for whorls

[Sativied]

Really amazing work man! Gorgeous plants

Thanks :)

I was sent here by Seamaiden after she saw some of my whorls.
What ya think ??

I don't see any whorled phyllotaxy in that plant, but some additional regrowth after topping. Crazy yeah, but not whorled, and not trifoliate either.

I think my spelling is correct lol

Your spelling is fine but your definitions are not correct. Trifoliate has nothing to do with whorled phyllotaxy nor with the amount of branches. It's a common mixup and came up several times in this thread, for example:

Trifoliate simply means that it has 3 leaflets. The second set of leaves on a cannabis plant are trifoliate. A steady trifoliate would basically have 3 leaflets on every leaf, never 5, 7, 9 or more. Normal cannabis leaves are "compound palmate" leaves. Compound means they are made of separate leaflets. Ducksfoot has "simple palmate leaf", which means the leaflets are not separate but webbed together.

 

[organix4207]

Thanks :)


I don't see any whorled phyllotaxy in that plant, but some additional regrowth after topping. Crazy yeah, but not whorled, and not trifoliate either.

Your spelling is fine but your definitions are not correct. Trifoliate has nothing to do with whorled phyllotaxy nor with the amount of branches. It's a common mixup and came up several times in this thread, for example:

Thanks for the correction
"A day I don't learn something new is a sad day."
Cheers

 

[Toaster79]

Hey Sat man!

What are your experiences with clones and whorling? Here's what i have. I took two cuts of a plant that were triwhorled. One cut had perfect triwhorled philotaxy aand the other one was alternating. So branches growing at 120* offset at different levels with continuing pattern. The one with perfect philotaxy was flowered out so i lost that one. The other one was taken out of flower after 2 maybe 3 weeks and was revegd. Now I have a franken-bonsay mother plant with mad branching where every branch caries original traits of the cut taken. Now every cut I take does the same. Looks like this genetic trait is deeply imprinted in the plants genealogy.


The mom:

And her cuts:

So what do you think?

+++++Vibes

 

[Sativied]

Both clones from my swan (F2-#22) and an F3 I recently took a late clone of are tri-whorled too, though indeed alternating by now. Those are from the P line, the supposed-to-be non-whorled cross. I' ve seen many plants that spiral in the bud site created during flowering but not in veg. Point is, spiral/whorled from clone isn't a rare occurrence and not just my weakest whorlest (I.e. those that whorl after many regular nodes) but also regular plants can give that result.

where every branch caries original traits of the cut taken

That however, is a very good sign imo.

It's the same thing with tricots, i.e. 3 seed leaves. Those become tri-whorled on the main stem because of that rule I mentioned once or twice. But when it starts a new lateral branch, it tends to start out regular and sort of has a clean slate. If those become or are tri whorled instead, then yes I agree with your conclusion.

That's F3 from the #4 female(sweet one in hempy) from F2. I recently popped more of those to find a better matching male.

 

[oregonized]

Do y'all get tri-cotyl's at varying rates too depending on the expression?...I have very limited experience,
I have had 2 so far....1 went to flower a true tricotyl to start, then to finish with Whirled PT. I even fished a few [maybe 5 ] goodies from beneath her carriage...found no balls to pluck in gobs, but must have existed...the 2nd showed as a tricotyl to start then regressed away from 3 leafed Whirled Pt to looking like a normal plant vegged from a typical dicot.....


I may have to pop a couple of those beans, now that I know a thread with 17 pages exists. :eek:

 

[homebrew420]

@Sativied are you seeing any of the whorled in the branching? are you keeping cuttings of all whorled? find any males exhibiting this trait? Interesting project. Thanks

Peace

 

[Sativied]

are you seeing any of the whorled in the branching?

Sure. As I logged earlier in this thread I can sort of encourage that by topping or LST-ing the main stem. It's not directly the main goal though but more an automatic result (in my case that is, i.e. the strong/early whorlers also tend to be the one that whorl on branches too). I don't grow trees, so no branches of branches of branches. A couple of whorled nodes, after topping give, enough colas already. 2 tri-whorled nodes results in 6 colas that don't get each other in the way like with regular.

you keeping cuttings of all whorled?

That's a bit like asking in an auto breeding project if I at F4 still have all the autos from F3 and F1. I'm not hunting for whorled phenos. As covered in this thread as well clones do remain whorled (technically spiral, because they alternate), revegs whorl too.

find any males exhibiting this trait?

About 20 tri whorled males and 2 quads and a slightly smaller amount of females. It all started with a quad whorled male (tri whorled with some quad whorled branches). I have now crosses/generations that express over 50% whorled (both male and female) and can pop 2 of the initial 3 outcrosses and CHxCH, and any of their generations (F1 for most) and easily "find" a male or female whorler. And since I have thousands of seeds...

If ICE x CH was a better cross I'd probably be done this year. I haven't grown enough of those yet but could be 100% whorled, just not early enough (some regular until 11th node, so not good enough despite expressing the trait late). Besides the bud not being up to standards (taste especially, blend indica mutt) the F1 had a full blown hermie. If I ever get more space if may create an F2 from that one. Point is whorled is just one thing, there are obviously more important traits that need to be good as well and ICExCH just isn't good enough despite the high whorl ratio.

The P cross (Chunk x CH), the F3 I'm running now, is a non-whorled line, i.e. selected against whorled phyllotaxy. Still noticed some late whorling in an F2 male and in revegged clone (including swan F2-#22) but F3 seems unwhorled. I'll be working on P and a P2 to cross with it for probably the rest of the year so this project is on hold for now.

 

[Sativied]

One of the P-F3 offspring (from female #19 in F2) at 6 weeks 12/12:

I also have F3 from swan (F2-22), and F3 from F2-4. The latter was a very sweet one in hempy. #19 was most frosty. I popped offspring from #4 and 19 to see what I'd be missing out on going for swan offspring. Which is possibly too much based on the small amount of #4 and #19 already (just 2 of each sex each), so I started flowering more from #4 and will more than likely pop some #19 again too (winning too much frost-wise). The end goal is still spread out over the 3 different lines but there's surprisingly little variation in F3. Difference is mostly the variation in smell (from weird pine sour to sweeter/fruitier). And #4 has an odd duck pheno, mostly just leaflet shape.

At little over 5 weeks 12/12:

#4 offspring:

#19-2, has a bit of an advantage. Had some problems with nutrient regime, turns out there's no Ca in Canna. This plant I potted up to a larger pot earlier than the rest and had less of a set back. It's why I want and need to go back to hydro, I can't manage all pots equally so get a skewed result when it comes to quantitative traits such as yield and frost.

Swan offspring (one one with table top mountain bud again).

Few days ago (swan offspring).

Although I got a couple of seeds in all probably (especially preflowers), I only pollinated an F3 from #4 and the swan (F2, bc). The goal of this round was mostly too see which if the three F3 lines is best. Hoped that would be swan offspring but I suspect I can find better in the F3 so running some more of #4 and probably #19 later too. Maybe even pop some Swan offspring too, just to get a better picture. While I only flowered 4 of #4 and #19 they seem, as expected based on genotype guesstimates, a little more stable than the swan line. Simply put, the males I used for F3 lined up better with #4 and #19 than #22 (swan).

Side note: I used primarily Canna Terra 'Vega' and very little of the flores bottle. I like to keep the nutrient level 'moderate' but had to go over the recommend doses to keep them green. Actually greened them up a little during flowering so I was probably just too careful with the nutes. Still, used less than $10 in nutes so far (not including $10 light mix soil).

 

[FlyinJStable]

I also have F3 from swan

@Sativied
WHAT UP! ! ! !
Been a min had to stop by and catch up on the Swan
yea I am rooting fer the Swan too when you you almost axed it and now she is one of the three sweet spots in your search fer
F3 lines . . . . .
Still you project never fails to inspire, I have My Nyvia II well dialed and she will be the corner Stone to My stable,
To find a Prper male has been a much harder task then I 1st thought All the mikado I popped I ended up with 6 females and only held onto 4 of the best
Still hunting...
Any whoot tri-Man Just wanted to say your always well worth the reading and keep this Vet going... the Cup in Denver was amazing, but glad to be back to my projects... See ya on the green side of Peace and the hunt fer the F5 . . . .
Super grow Vibes to ya
FlyJ

 

[Sativied]

Hey FlyJ,

Thanks for the kind words. And good luck hunting for a male! It's especially hard early in the process, in following generations it becomes a little easier because you can compare them to more generations and plants, including their female parents as well. There are a lot of myths and claims on the web about selecting males and their influence, but they have very little to offer. Cannabis uses a X-to-autosome ratio to determine sex, opposed to a male-determining system. I.e. XX is female, X is not female enough so becomes male. Y exists mainly to prevent 2 XX.
(src: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3359589/pdf/gb-2011-12-10-r102.pdf )

(Great female x 'ok' male) x (Great female x 'ok' male) = F2 generation with great females, 'ok' females, great males, and 'ok' males.
Oversimplified but holds true in practice because less than 10% is sex linked and even genes on the sex chromosomes can cross over. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12835935 )


I just smoked a quick dried small pretaster from one of the F3 and I wish I could wrap this strain up just to get some feedback on the taste... It's not subtle or a hint but a rich taste that activates my tongue similar to mint.

#4-5, the fastest. (clone in post #324 above is from this plant). Running 8-9 from line #4 again, just sexed those.

One of the swan's offspring:

#19 offspring:

As you can see there's some variation between the lines. The bud however all ends up very similar and while there's variation in the taste/smell as well it's all variation of the same (and not like some are blend or still CH-grape, they are all piney).

The #4 line looks like it's going to be a little more hairy then the rest. It's a trait from the chunk that's probably still in all the lines. I'm not sure how much effort I'm going to make selecting against it. It's starting to grow on me, the orange fur :)

Continuing with the Swan line is at this point unlikely but I may pop some of those again in the future. Her sister lines just seem more promising at this point, stability-wise anyway. I haven't pollinated nor cloned the best of the swan and #19 line this run (except the #4 at the top, main issue with it is that there are way more frosty plants in 19 and Swan line). Haven't really decided what to do yet. Will grow out some more from #19 too.

As you perhaps heard/read, many Dutch seedbanks stopped selling/distributing in the netherlands. Some allow only 5 seeds per order. This includes several well known larger and smaller breeders and seedbanks. Sannie as well (owns main dutch grow forum). This motivates me to do the opposite and am considering getting the most popular dutch strain for growers, smokers and shops - amnesia haze - and cross it with a plant from either P-F3 line 19, line 4, or an F4, and create more than a few seeds to give away (which is still legal).

 

[FlyinJStable]

sister lines just seem more promising at this point, stability-wise anyway

Well I know what ever you do It will be 100% all Fun and that its about, beside Great Herb,
it has to be enjoyable and as I said in the past
You always put the motivation in the FlyJ with the passion you put into yours . . . .
All your work speaks of who you are, keep it green Bro
Bring On them F4's
Super breedin for the Love of it Vibes
FlyJ
PS

considering getting the most popular dutch strain for growers, smokers and shops

I would be 1st in line to get some
FlyJ

 

[Sativied]

Super breedin for the Love of it Vibes

Thanks man, and likewise.


While I was fairly convinced I popped some ICExCH in addition to CHxCH last round, I still don't see how that could have happened (picking seeds from 2 separate labelled bags is possible but unlikely). I'm starting to see some colors that remind me a lot of the ICExCH suspects... I'm leaning heavily towards the possibility that they (whorled from last round) were CHxCH afterall and CH is an F1. And CH definitely isn't what DNA claims it is (which we already knew). It's not just C99 either, which wouldn't segregate and fall apart as much if you inbreed it once through sibling mating. It's an indica (skunk, super skunk, maybe even ICE) x a haze. The plants (in previous round, not P cross) that are more like their indica grandparents seem to be the whorlers. Considering I had a couple of whorlers in the CH already, and it inherits dominantly, I suspect the parent of the CH was whorled already. Just speculation but it would add it up.

Had a bit of a cold week, turned purple/black in a matter of days.

It's more purple in reality.

 

[Sativied]

#5 from line 4, almost done. This is the only one I pollinated properly, i.e. the only one that will produce F4 seeds. It has everything except not being the most frosty on the leaves. I have a clone from this one, and got 8 or 9 of her siblings starting to show sex.

Swan line (swan itself is showing some purple too).

My wife noticed to pic on my screen and said: "that doesn't look good"... I honestly prefer light green too at this stage but it's starting to affect the smaller leaves as well so should get some photogenic buds soon...

Last round I suspected besides the cold temp (only 64 at night so not really cold now) the organic nutes played a rule, but I'm just growing on canna terra now. They've actually been on just water for a few days already.

Swan (F-2 reveg) itself. Had to keep her from spreading her wings :) I'm glad I flowered this one, showed nicely there are better ones in the F3. Still, I look forward to smoking her again.

 

[Canappa]

#5 from line 4, almost done. This is the only one I pollinated properly, i.e. the only one that will produce F4 seeds. It has everything except not being the most frosty on the leaves. I have a clone from this one, and got 8 or 9 of her siblings starting to show sex.
View attachment 506605
Swan line (swan itself is showing some purple too).
View attachment 506608
My wife noticed to pic on my screen and said: "that doesn't look good"... I honestly prefer light green too at this stage but it's starting to affect the smaller leaves as well so should get some photogenic buds soon...

View attachment 506607

Last round I suspected besides the cold temp (only 64 at night so not really cold now) the organic nutes played a rule, but I'm just growing on canna terra now. They've actually been on just water for a few days already.

Swan (F-2 reveg) itself. Had to keep her from spreading her wings :) I'm glad I flowered this one, showed nicely there are better ones in the F3. Still, I look forward to smoking her again.
View attachment 506609

Its been a while since I been on here, What no Hydro? still looking good though! great work you have going on...

 

[Sativied]

What no Hydro?

It's still weird to me too :) I look forward to going back to hydro but haven't finished the new design yet. Want to run nft/flooded tubes again but increase plant portability. So I can remove males and rearrange plants at least during transition, without ripping their roots apart. I certainly prefer hydro for growing but soil's just more convenient for breeding at the moment.

Actually planned to run hydro again next run, i.e. in a couple of weeks, but I'm trying out some new soil that's working very nicely so far which is making me doubt again. The soil is premixed with organic nutes for 9 weeks. It's for fruit and veggie gardens. It's probably a little hot but the plants I currently got in it look like they are in hydro. Fat stems and lush green. Will take a few pics of those in a couple of hours.

 

[Sativied]

These are the new ones from line #4, F3 plants, in organic soil.

Had nothing but water. As you can probably see the soil contains a bit too much nutrients but they are in small pots but I hope it will deplete some nutes before getting too bad.

Growing a bud instead of a preflower...

The odd duck (rest is more for SoG, 1 cola plants, this one branched out and is smaller).

There's just one problem.... I got 8 females, and 1 male... the females have rock hard stems (like CH) but as thick and vigorous as the chunk. The male however is hollow like the original chunk. Pinching it crushes and flattens it very easily. Besides that it's only 1 male. So I can't use these.

Which leaves #19 F3 line and the F4 seeds currently in one of the #4 plants (first pic in post #333 above) and the seeds in the swan (from a #4 male).

 

[Sativied]

The dark purple in the back is also the one that looks like it will need a few more days than the rest to finish and will probably be fully purple soon.

The last one is from the second batch of #4 line. I'm going to take some clones from those mini branches. Although I don't have a male #4 I think this one's going to be good. It's the odd duck because the others have a few lower small branches only and it's about 25% smaller. It's one of the bottom two of the three on the left (1,2,3o_O )

The others have very little branching, but considering they were moved under 600watt hps after the pic above, with no more space than the pots I expected some stretch during transition. Upside is that I can put them to the side and use 3x4 of my 4x4 flower closet for something else.

 

[Sativied]

 

[Sativied]

New #4 batch:

F4 seed:

Had this one in a smaller pot, dried out a few times and clearly a little behind, so needs longer and continues to darken.

Seed dropped from preflower:

 

[Sativied]

As much as I enjoy the taste of the P-F3 harvest, it's time to add some variation in my jars so I popped a few of the Late Night. This is (chocolate fondue x something) x cannalope haze quad male. Had these in the fridge for over a year and still popped overnight, 33 floater and 2 sunk. Picked stripe-less seeds this time.

Named it before deciding not to name anything I won't release anyway so might as well stick with it.... Late Night is the single cola plants I posted a few times in this journal. No whorlers yet. It finishes in barely 7 weeks 12/12 but low yielder. Frosty and tastes like the CH (grapefruit-ish). It'll give me some time to figure out my next move and at the same time create an F2 to see if I can find some with the sweet haze taste of the late night parent (seed from choco fondue).