Breeding for whorls

[Sativied]

To complete the series:

Killed the longest/most stretched males and got these three left:

Going to use the small one on the right only for the smallest female. Some of the females are too tall but going to pollinate them all this time, lower flowers that is, with the two males on the left.

 

[Og Gong]

I just wanna say thank you for sharing your knowledge bro it is priceless. Keep up the awesome work! Good grow vibes peace! ;)

 

[Sativied]

Thanks OGG, always nice to be appreciated :)

That's the Swan (P-F2-22). Gave it some TLC after some neglect, and it's back in shape again. This plant has been revegged twice now and hasn't been on a fixed time schedule for months. Tall but short internodes. Not the strongest pine taste (unlike F3 and F1). Almost a bit coffee/caramel -like undertone.

Interesting observation: after some neglect (usually too little water and too long in small pot) the stems get really purple. The new growth is green again, but what also turned green is the stem of the cutting I put in a glass of water (which I always do for 24hrs+ before planting the cutting). Interesting cause the most useful ingredients in my tapwater is Ca and Mg. The Ca is not in a form the plant can take up directly, which suggests the Mg played a role. While some strains have it naturally, purple stems is usually not a good sign. If it's not cold it's a deficiency. I don't get it on hydro till later in the cycle. Don't have it currently on the Late Night in soil either.

I think that last part is because I'm using the 400w mh. The 600w bulb I used is over a year old but the main thing seems to be the reduced transpiration. I.e. under 600w they drink more, so much I can't always keep up with watering when using small pots. Transpiration caused by a difference in water potential of the leaves and the air is however the thriving force of the plant, so I think it will cost me yield (usually the case when using 400w instead of 600...). It's 75-77 with lights on, I rather have 82-83. Anyway, I need to get a new 600w bulb.

Probably going to Amsterdam tomorrow to pick one up. I'm considering buying some seeds too. Although I want to the amnesia clone so I rather not buy seeds but I need to introduce something new to my breeding stock.

I'm not happy with how the P-F3 turned out. Too much like the chunk (tall sog plants with long flowering period). I don't have F2 seeds (had 67 from P-F1-6 and popped them all), so I would have to restart at F1, or pop the F4 and see if I got lucky picking the male. Or cross F3 with F4 or F4 with F2. All feasible options but I've been smoking P too long. Need to put it on hold and get back to it in the future.

Lesson learned for future crossbreeding projects: Make a ton of F2 seeds. Don't need to run a lot of F1, can put best with the best (select for quantitative traits) to make F2. Carefully select (for qualitative and quantitative traits ) from large F2 population, create multiple F3 lines. Test F3 lines and select (for qualitative and quantitative traits) within the F3 lines to take one or more lines to F4. Repeat that for one or more generations to stabilize (lock in traits base on genotype estimate, i.e. qualitative if needed). Then if needed one or more generation to put the best with the best for quantitative traits. Most important part in that is 'make a ton of F2'...

I am going to flower the swan again and pollinate it with Late Night pollen, entirely. The test cross looks pretty, very frosty, but leafy and not the best yielder. Swan is heavy yielder, not leafy, so I want to cross it with late night and see if I get sativa dom leaves and more leaf frost again, yet keeping the desirable traits of the swan. The test cross was a Late Night female x P-F2 male, this will be P-F2 female x Late Night male.

 

[MrBelvedere]

What a great project. What are your current goals?

Create a seedline that consistently whorls?
Create a single plant that yields huge because of whorling?
Just figure out the breeding process to create consistently whorled plants?

Great thread man.

 

[Sativied]

Create a seedline that consistently whorls?
Create a single plant that yields huge because of whorling?
Just figure out the breeding process to create consistently whorled plants?

Option C initially and mostly, but A would be cool at some point, and B would be a bonus. Whorling project is on hold for now though. The whorling from the original (Cannalope Haze) quad inherited in the cross with Chunk (which I call P, though the P-F3 is result of selecting 'against' it) and the cross with the ICE (inferior results, hermies) and in the CH x CH. "NOT" in the Late Night I'm growing out now.

The CH x CH-quad produced over 50% whorlers. I have a couple of hundred seeds created with whorlers from that run (tris and quad, see page 16 for pics), and I'm pretty sure those will again produce mostly whorlers. Only downside is that the bud it produces is not good enough. Looks beautiful, but blend taste and boring effect. I will pop them at some point and possibly backcross something else into it.

Current short term goal is taking Late Night to the next generation using short phenos only and see if it's worth working on on its own. I don't expect much of it, it's a filler side project. Additionally I'm going to pollinate the swan with the best Late Night male. Long term goal is under development :)


The Late Night male (going to use three for the Late Night next gen but this one to cross with swan)

Longest female (longest node is nearly 7")

Shortest female. Not too happy about those long petioles.

So far the "easiest" grow I've done. Still got that healthy green, only have to water them once every two days. Some bacteria and enzyms and hocus pocus but no nutes added yet.

 

[Sativied]

This better be good...

From sensi's shop in Amsterdam. It's (Haze x Afghani) x Thai. If it's good I'm going to take it to the next gen, which should contain some haze x afghani phenos and thai phenos. Hopefully some shorter phenos of the former.

The stretch in Late Night is from the Thai choco used for chocolope and hence chocolate fondue (Late night is seed from latter). Thai has a good high cannabinoid and terpene profile but it's so damn tall.

If anything I expect it to be a good smoke and I do look forward to growing something else than my own crosses for a change.

Favorite LN male:

Mutant nanner:

It's like two formed one... weird.

Something I noticed clearly on my first nanner pics, using a harvest scope taped to an ipad, are the little shiny balls on the edge of the banana, right along the crease where it opens. Initially I thought they were pollen grains that sort of leaked out, but they are too large to be pollen. Two years later, just now, I noticed they are all quite shiny on the Late Night male. They appear to be more clear/glassy than usual (milky).

Here's a clear example of a few bananas from which I just harvested the pollen (using a small vial). Two nanners leaning over the edge, rest are segments of the umbrella).

They appear to be non-stalked yet bulbous trichomes. Cannabis only needs a bit of wind and I don't think it's meant to attract bees or butterflies to carry pollen. Perhaps to protect it? Inquiring minds want to know...

 

[MrBelvedere]

This better be good...
View attachment 517422
From sensi's shop in Amsterdam. It's (Haze x Afghani) x Thai. If it's good I'm going to take it to the next gen, which should contain some haze x afghani phenos and thai phenos. Hopefully some shorter phenos of the former.

The stretch in Late Night is from the Thai choco used for chocolope and hence chocolate fondue (Late night is seed from latter). Thai has a good high cannabinoid and terpene profile but it's so damn tall.

If anything I expect it to be a good smoke and I do look forward to growing something else than my own crosses for a change.

Favorite LN male:
View attachment 517453

View attachment 517454

Mutant nanner:
View attachment 517455
It's like two formed one... weird.

Something I noticed clearly on my first nanner pics, using a harvest scope taped to an ipad, are the little shiny balls on the edge of the banana, right along the crease where it opens. Initially I thought they were pollen grains that sort of leaked out, but they are too large to be pollen. Two years later, just now, I noticed they are all quite shiny on the Late Night male. They appear to be more clear/glassy than usual (milky).

Here's a clear example of a few bananas from which I just harvested the pollen (using a small vial). Two nanners leaning over the edge, rest are segments of the umbrella).
View attachment 517456
They appear to be non-stalked yet bulbous trichomes. Cannabis only needs a bit of wind and I don't think it's meant to attract bees or butterflies to carry pollen. Perhaps to protect it? Inquiring minds want to know...

Yes I've read that all plants have trichomes and their main function is protection from insects. By the way white label seeds is run by Ben drinkers son correct? Do they have the same parental stock as Sensi? They both sell Hindu Kush for example but it is not clear if they are using same parents? Thx.

 

[Sativied]

The function of trichomes varies a lot though, protection against insects is just one of them, it depends on the plant and type and location of the trichomes. Some are to protect against light, prevent evap, protect against frost, and herbivores eating the plant/fruits. I'm specifically wondering about the row of trichs (if that's even what they are) on nanners. It seems all cannabis nanners have it. At some point in evolution it or its ancestor randomly mutated which resulted in this feature that apparently happened to make such a difference in survival and creating offspring that all cannabis plants have it. Insects is an option, but it could be something entirely different, like guiding water drops along the nanners' creases to prevent the pollen from getting wet during rain.

By the way white label seeds is run by Ben Dronkers son correct?

White Label is a sister company of Sensi Seeds, quite possible Ben's son Alan runs it. I see they have their own site too but white label has always been part of sensi. Hindu Kush at White Label seeds is Sensi's Hindu Kush, i.e. you can buy both sensi and wl at sensi and wl.

 

[MrBelvedere]

The function of trichomes varies a lot though, protection against insects is just one of them, it depends on the plant and type and location of the trichomes. Some are to protect against light, prevent evap, protect against frost, and herbivores eating the plant/fruits. I'm specifically wondering about the row of trichs (if that's even what they are) on nanners. It seems all cannabis nanners have it. At some point in evolution it or its ancestor randomly mutated which resulted in this feature that apparently happened to make such a difference in survival and creating offspring that all cannabis plants have it. Insects is an option, but it could be something entirely different, like guiding water drops along the nanners' creases to prevent the pollen from getting wet during rain.

White Label is a sister company of Sensi Seeds, quite possible Ben's son Alan runs it. I see they have their own site too but white label has always been part of sensi. Hindu Kush at White Label seeds is Sensi's Hindu Kush, i.e. you can buy both sensi and wl at sensi and wl.

Ok duh now I see what you're seeing on the stalks on the nanners. That is huge and glassy looking. Thanks for the info on WL.

 

[Sativied]

Ok, just in case, for clarity, I'm talking about these:

Look how milky they are in that one, that's from the Cannalope Haze over a year ago.

They had the same look on the Late Night but they turned glassy/clear/transparent over the past days.

While aiming the light of my camera on it they stand out like little drops of water or crystals.

Trichomes don't go from milky to clear and I'm not sure they even are trichs. I think they are, just not one of the type we usually care about.

From: https://drugs-forum.com/growfaq/1529.htm
Although cannabis resin glands called trichomes are structurally diverse, they come in three basic varieties:

• Bulbous: [yellow, these create that seemingly waxy layer sometimes]
  The bulbous type is the smallest (15-30 micron). From one to four cells make up the "foot" and "stalk," and one to four cells make up the "head" of the gland. Head cells secrete a resin - presumably cannabinoids, and related compounds which accumulate between the head cells and the cuticle. When the gland matures, a nipple-like protrusion may form on the membrane from the pressure of the accumulating resin. The bulbous glands are found scattered about the surfaces of the above-ground plant parts.

• Capitate-Sessile: [blue arrow, not pointing to the most clear example, but these are the ones we're seeing]
  The second type of gland is much larger & is more numerous than the bulbous glands. They are called capitate, which means having a globular-shaped head. On immature plants, the heads lie flush, appearing not to have a stalk and are called capitate sessile. They actually have a stalk that is one cell high, although it may not be visible beneath the globular head. The head is composed of usually eight, but up to 16 cells, that form a convex rosette. These cells secrete cannabinoids, and related compounds which accumulate between the rosette and it's outer membrane. This gives it a spherical shape. The gland measures from 25 to 100 micron across.

• Capitate-Stalked:
  Cannabinoids are most abundant in the capitate-stalked gland which consists of a tier of secretory disc cells subtending a large non-cellular secretory cavity. During flowering the capitate glands that appear on the newly formed plant parts take on a third form. Some of the glands are raised to a height of 150 to 500 micron when their stalks elongate. These capitate-stalked glands appear during flowering and form their densest cover on the female flower bracts. They are also highly concentrated on the small leaves that accompany the flowers. The male flowers have stalked glands on the sepals, but they are smaller and less concentrated than on the female bracts. Male flowers form a row of very large capitate glands along the opposite sides of anthers.

Those are the trichomes that get us high. The bulbous type is clearly visible in most of my P (chunk x ch) plants, the early frost on seedlings and leaves is of the second type, and the third is the typical stalked one.

The roots hairs, and the hairs on stems and petioles are also trichomes. The stem hairs are supposedly, probably amongst others though, to trap air and hence moist and temp and thereby provide protection against changes and extremes. The ones on the roots are obviously to increase the absorption of water.

Anyway... maybe those little white balls on the nanners are glue. They usually do seem to alternate like a zipper. I like my water drop guides theory better.

EDIT: the crease where the nanner opens is probably an example of "dehiscence" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehiscence_(botany)

"Dehiscence is the splitting at maturity along a built-in line of weakness in a plant structure in order to release its contents, and is common among fruits, anthers and sporangia. Sometimes this involves the complete detachment of a part. Structures that open in this way are said to be dehiscent. Structures that do not open in this way are called indehiscent, and rely on other mechanisms such as decay or predation to release the contents."

 

[geologic]

I think they are, just not one of the type we usually care about.

Yet--
maybe...

 

[Sativied]

Owww... after looking at the last pic on the previous page again I see they are actually located on the opposite site of the line...

Petal glue :D

 

[geologic]

Pedal glue;
sounds good, now--
is it some kinda indicator of <something>???

===============================

Is this the one I need for next year???
I really luv vaping my Moonshine Haze every day,
and I anticipate luvin' Amnesia Haze X GSC next fall, winter, spring--
and summer too...

 

[Og Gong]

Wow i have not seen a nanner pic better than that one. Petal Glue is crazy. That pic should be in a science book lol.

 

[geologic]

...an' just howmany glublios--
does yer best male have???...

 

[Sativied]

is it some kinda indicator of <something>???

Not sure, I did notice there seems to be some variation in the amount and in a cross one could perhaps recognize the parents by the amount, if then the goal is to work towards the genes of one parent it could be used as a marker. I was mostly just curious why it turned clear. I looked at dozens of species and nothing like it which only makes me want to know more what it is. The search turned out to be very useful though, I just learned I've been using the word pistil wrong since forever... next post...

Amnesia Haze X GSC

That one really caught my eye when looking at your list.

The Amnesia White is (a haze x afghani) x thai. The description at sensi says it's a "refinement of world famous haze-hybrid". Not sure about the world famous part but amnesia haze is one of the most popular items on the menu here, at shops and street/bulk dealers, so I assume that's what they used. Without the thai it probably would be very similar to the AH x GSC. The Amnesia White is probably going to be huge.

While it's nearly always sold as Amnesia Haze, it's originally called just Amnesia. It's a cut from hy-pro (made nutes too), which is now "Super strains", the cut is originally, probably (generally accepted as the most likely case) from a Super Silver Haze plant. Simply put Amnesia = SSH. A strong smelling and tasting pheno. It smells like it has been sprayed with spicy fuel haze incense. SSH+ (though I think one can find the same pheno in SSH again too amnesia is generally more tasty). Great strain to test odor control effectiveness in a stealth setup...

I'm still going for the original cut, didn't want the fem version and their reg pack is large and expensive, but the following is based on 'the' cut, crossed with Neville's Haze, and would be the one I recommend instead of Amnesia White...
http://superstrains.biz/shop/amnesia-feminized/ (pictures are spot on)

 

[geologic]

It smells like it has been sprayed with spicy fuel haze incense. SSH+ (though I think one can find the same pheno in SSH again too amnesia is generally more tasty). Great strain to test odor control effectiveness in a stealth

All three of my Moonshine Haze's reek heavy of PineSol;
my wife hates the smell and wouldn't even be in the same room with an open jar for the first six months--
which is why I still get to vape it every day Heh...

 

[Sativied]

...an' just howmany glublios--
does yer best male have???...

I currently have only one male going but based on pics it ranges between 10 and 20 roughly. Late Night seems to have a low amount on only on the bottom half of the sac.

Only 2 or 3 short enough to take to next gen but I'll pollinate them all either way. I'm surprised there are still so many white pistils... err... stigmas, with the male still next to it.

Note the pistil image:

Pistil includes the ovary. The 'hairs' are stigmas.

Wow i have not seen a nanner pic better than that one. Petal Glue is crazy. That pic should be in a science book lol.

Thanks, though I just noticed it seems it should be sepal glue instead of petal.

"Each male flower is about 1/8" across, consisting of 5 sepals, 5 stamens with large anthers, and no petals" and a few other sources confirm it, for example: "The male flowers have no petals as such, though the sepals enclosing the flower pod are often mistaken [guilty as charged] for petals. "

Corrected version:

Funny though, because a collection of sepals is a calyx. So there's a male calyx...

Anyway, those pistils. This is the ICE, and shows the trait I also found in the plants I thought were ICE x CH instead of CH x CH:

They look like immature seeds with live pistils growing through it but aren't. They are naked pistils, not covered by a female sepal. Female calyxes have one sepal wrapped around the pistil, which essentially is the calyx.

I wonder now if I caused it somehow by a bad feeding regime or if it's genetic.

 

[MrBelvedere]

Maybe try carefully grabbing 10 of those sepal glues and see if it will pollinate something?

 

[Sativied]

Maybe try carefully grabbing 10 of those sepal glues and see if it will pollinate something?

They are roughly the same size as the large end of thesecond type of trichs I posted about above, so somewhere around 100 micron across (I think more like 150). Wind-borne pollen can be that large (90-100), but cannabis is roughly 50:

(left is cannabis, src: http://www.internationalhempassociation.org/jiha/jiha5208.html )

Another close up of Cannabis pollen, I assume the color is from the type of photography.

(src: Pollen Image Library http://www-saps.plantsci.cam.ac.uk/pollen/ )

So, size-wise it doesn't match. You can also compare it in the following pic, the pollen grains on and in the vial are much smaller and not clear bulb. Most of the pollen you see, you see only because it's multiple grains together.


That, combined with the fact they are present before the pollen is mature and ready, makes me fairly certain it's not growing pollen outside its pollen sac. I like your suggestion nonetheless but it would be hard to test because if the result is successful pollination it's probably still from some pollen grain that tagged along.

I am thinking of trying to harvest a few, just to see if I can, and then maybe someday have it tested together with my frosty seedlings.

Oh and I was thinking last night perhaps, if glue sort of speak, it could be not to keep the sepal down (seems no reason for that) but to pull the anthers/beans/nanners/sacs slightly apart/loose, considering the opening, the line of dehiscence, is on the inner side.

Edit: