Breeding for whorls

[MrBelvedere]

7 up, 2 more to go. Clearly slower than usual. Slower opening of seed, slower breaking of soil, slower opening of cotyledons... maybe it's the heat even though it's pretty constant and as usual in my T8 cabinet.

Looking good but clearly not as many capitate-sessile trichs as on my own crosses. At least not on this one.
View attachment 521702

Great pics, they do look good but not as good as the yours a few posts back... :)

 

[Sativied]

Found the missing seed...

The green one is the one that I found, as seed, on top of the soil. Had barely half an inch tap root, of which the tip dried out already. Notice the new roots at the end in pic below. I clipped tap roots before and I know it responds just like topping a plant but wasn't sure this one was going to make it because the tip was dead - looks like it will be fine.

Late Night - Candy pheno:

That bud out of focus in the back looks like silver or platinum.

I look forward to smoking the 5 gram from this plant (besides poor yield it's mostly seeded).

 

[Og Gong]

@Sativied Is there a special diet you use for the pollinated plants to produce good strong viable seeds?

 

[Sativied]

Not really, I just try to keep them healthy as long as possible but do that with non-pollinated plants too. I try to do that by not giving them any special diets but aim for a complete and balanced nutrient mix with just the essential elements in moderate amounts.

 

[Og Gong]

Cool, thank you. I'm gonna have to adjust my feeding a little lol The Late Night reminds me of Hawaii back in the day some of the best herb was 5g candy plants lol all grown in trees, guava patches, bushes, valleys etc not a lot of direct sun. Lol

 

[Sativied]

Just ran into a couple of documents I wanted to share, related to the terminology I rambled about on the past pages. I haven't read the entire thing yet but the first seems like a great resource in regards to what exactly we grow. Second is more history, fitting title though.

http://www.stcm.ch/files/us-herbal-pharmacopoeia_cannabis-monography.pdf
http://www.drugtext.org/Cannabis-and-Culture/cannabis-an-example-of-taxonomic-neglect.html

 

[geologic]

65 pages on Cannabis Inflorescence--
thanx...

 

[Sativied]

So I got 8 Amnesia White seedlings, a full week after popping... Killed 2. One kept its cotyledons closed and pointing down for 4 days (nose in the soil) and after closer inspection it seems it fused together. Other one was just too weak, didn't grow and green up.

The first leaves of most are wrinkled and ugly. Just potted up to slightly larger pots and roots look ok but I'm not even sure they are all going to make it. Considering 3 look good and are pretty much on schedule like the hundreds of seeds I popped over the past years, I have to conclude it's the seeds and at this point certainly cannot recommend them. 100% germination rate... but of finicky seedlings.

Good chance I won't get 5 or even 4 AW females so... popping some P-F3, line #19 (least hairy and most frosty line).

I expect these to pop within 24 hrs and catch up with the AW. The AW probably has a long flower time and is tall so won't need a lot of veg. Besides hopefully at least a couple of good males and females for the next AW gen, a possible scenario is P-F3 x AW, at least as a test cross to see how some traits inherit and if the pine of the P crosses well with the haze from AW.

 

[Sativied]

From the short odd duck of the Late Night.

Golden trichs, found some scattered on the candy pheno and a few others too but not like this one. Possibly a reaction to the uv of the mh bulb I'm using, or phenotypical difference from the different spectrum.

Candy pheno:

Should be able to get some mature seeds from it soon. Still got the clone, might do a backcross on the side just to get a batch of these with a higher candy pheno ratio.

 

[Sativied]

Just got some interesting info from @MrBelvedere about phyllotaxy, only a couple of months old:

A Dynamical Phyllotaxis Model to Determine Floral Organ Number
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4423988/

Lines up nicely with a few things I observed and posted in this thread. Like this part:

"For example, one model showed that the divergence angle between successive leaves is 180 degrees for the first and second leaves, 90 degrees for the second and third leaves, and oscillating thereafter, converging to the golden angle, 137.5 degrees, which agrees with the phyllotaxis of true leaves in Arabidopsis thaliana after the two cotyledons"

THAT is what I want to capture with a time lapse (will get a few led bulbs for a new attempt). I also love they mention the "divergence" angle too in addition to the golden angle.

And of course the auxin and Hofmeister rule I mentioned a few times:
"Several studies have suggested that the competitive polar transport of the auxin accounts for two of Hofmeister’s rules, the periodicity of initiation and the initiation at the largest space, which together are capable of reproducing both spiral phyllotaxis and whorled phyllotaxis"

"Phyllotaxis is mainly classified into two types: spiral phyllotaxis, which has a constant divergence angle and internode length, and whorled phyllotaxis, which has several leaves at the same level of a stem"

Lots of conflicting info on the web about the difference on the last two types but yes that's the key difference, "at the same level".

Anyway, thanks again for the link @MrBelvedere.

 

[Sativied]

16 hrs after previous seeds pic, i.e. first check after putting them in water... pop pop... pop.... pop-pop

Pretty sure these P will actually be seedlings 4-5 days faster than the AW were.

 

[Sativied]

Last night 40 kilo of cannabis seeds were planted in the park (Vondelpark) in Amsterdam. By some art collective. To sort of protest against the dulling of Amsterdam.

40 kilo... but females and males...

Years ago some cops here in some city had the brilliant idea of putting pollen in the air so indoor grows would get seeded. After many complaints from people with asthma etc it turned out to be not such a great idea after all. Surely any indoor grower in the area isn't going to be happy with it either. Dumb move... probably hermie-hemp seeds too...

 

[geologic]

40 kilos!!!
~How many seeds per kilo I wonder???
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The mass pollen "chuck"--
is downright evil...

 

[Sativied]

I don't have a very accurate scale but a quick check shows 5gram of average size seeds is roughly 350 seeds. 70 per gram, 70,000 per kilo, x 40 is nearly 3 million seeds.

"In general hemp seeds weigh between 0.01 and 0.02 grams" src: seedsman. So 50 to 100 per gram indeed.

Hemp...

Last year or the year before that they pulled the same stunt in Berlin or another German city. I think they used actual drug variety so led to more resistance from the general public (the idea of kids harvesting buds and all that). Cops obviously aren't going to let them grow so it's just a stupid move wasting time, energy, money and messing up a park.

 

[geologic]

Okay,
so now I wonder what the winning lotto numbers are Heh--
thanx...

 

[geologic]

Fukushima mutations including fasciation;
same with Chernobyl, TMI an all--
Things are gonna get stranger...
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“The right one grew up, split into 2 stems to have 2 flowers connected each other, having 4 stems of flower tied beltlike. The left one has 4 stems grew up to be tied to each other and it had the ring-shaped flower. The atmospheric dose is 0.5 μSv/h at 1 m”…
http://fukushima-diary.com/2015/07/photo-deformed-shasta-daisy-in-nasushiobara-city-0-5-μsvh-at-1m-above-the-ground/

[EDIT]: They changed location of ^^^this^^^ page to this page:

http://fukushima-diary.com/2015/07/...hiobara-city-0-5-μsvh-at-1m-above-the-ground/
http://fukushima-diary.com/2015/04/...everywhere-found-seven-leaf-clover-last-year/
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2009: The proportion of plants showing stem fasciation increased with gamma-irradiation in a dose-dependent manner. Each single mutant also showed stem fasciation at a low frequency without gamma-irradiation, while gamma-irradiation induced stem fasciation. Importantly, in wild-type plants, the frequency of stem fasciation was very low (<0.1%) under the growth conditions used, but these phenotypes were induced by gamma-irradiation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2692019/
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May 1984: I have carefully examined a few specimens of common plants, collected shortly after the [1979] accident at TMI and compared them with specimens collected more recently. The current abnormalities [observed ~5 years after accident] are probably carried forward by induced chromosomal aberrations. There were a number of anomalies entirely comparable to those induced by ionizing radiation — stem fasciations [etc.]… Most of the stem abnormalities… are induced by relatively high doses of X or gamma rays extending over a period of usually 2-3 months. Notable exceptions, however, are similar responses to beta ray exposure from radioisotopes… and for only 24 hours. In other words, it would have been possible for the types of plant abnormalities observed to have been induced by radioactive fallout on March 29, 1979… In plants, the dose rate (e.g. mr/hr) is much more important than total dose (e.g. mr/yr) in inducing abnormalities… I have incontrovertible experimental results to show that beta rays are at least a quality factor of two in plants. I am the world authority on modifications of plant growth and development induced by ionizing radiations…
http://pbadupws.nrc.gov/docs/ML0706/ML070660059.pdf

 

[Sativied]

Though obviously for different reasons, it does add to my perception that fasciation is not a good thing (unless it's for ornamental plants). It's a defect in the mechanism that results in a regular (or better) plant structure.

"sunflowers with axillary buds" huh... interesting, *googles*

"Sunflower is an important oilseed crop, known to grow a strong dominating
single flower head. In recent times, axillary buds initiation and formation of
multi flower heads is a common feature in many sunflower hybrids. To find
out the reason for multiheadedness an experiment was carried out in the
hybrid KBSH-41. It was found that this trait is regulated by the interaction of
environmental signals and plant growth regulators such as auxin and cytokinin.

Any kind of stress induces the bud growth which affects the translocation
of hormones in the transpiration system, especially auxin.

When the translocation of basipetally moving auxin reduces, concentration of acropetally moving
cytokinin increases leading to the development of axillary buds. When, under
normal conditions,auxin to cytokinin ratio is not altered the plants develop sin-
gle flower heads. The results of this study suggest that auxin has an inhibitory
effect on the growth of axillary buds, while cytokinin promotes their growth.
The mechanism of axillary bud growth depends on the ratio of these two hormones."

Brought that up a few times in this thread, figured that out already but nice to see it confirmed again.

Simply put my whorlers could simply have a gene that produces either less auxin or more cytokinin. Late Night has a low auxin structure, i.e. strong apical dominance. The terminal creates a lot of auxins to allow it to grow and suppress axillary bud growth.

That's why topping the terminal bud (a major source of auxin) results in more bushy plants. Same with LST.

As I tested and showed before, topping (or bending the main stem down) my whorl candidates cause them to whorl. It specifically changes the cytokinin level in relation to auxin level.

I'm pretty sure a bottle of cytokinin could function as a bottle of Sativied's Whorl Oil. :D


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As expected, within 48 hrs after soaking the P-F3 seeds broke through the soil and will all be seedlings today:

 

[Toaster79]

Last night 40 kilo of cannabis seeds were planted in the park (Vondelpark) in Amsterdam. By some art collective. To sort of protest against the dulling of Amsterdam.

40 kilo... but females and males...

Years ago some cops here in some city had the brilliant idea of putting pollen in the air so indoor grows would get seeded. After many complaints from people with asthma etc it turned out to be not such a great idea after all. Surely any indoor grower in the area isn't going to be happy with it either. Dumb move... probably hermie-hemp seeds too...

This could be the biggest live gene pool of cannabis. Imagine all the crosses comming from the harvest :D

 

[Sativied]

Cops already said they are going to remove it all and the city will send the bill to that art collective. Not only in Vondelpark but also in garden of museum and similar which basically makes it vandalism. It's a marketing stunt, not a cry for legalization, so it's not helping the cause, on the contrary.

They should have planted the word LEGALIZE on a hill along a freeway or something...

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Those are the plants I popped for the whorl time lapse, and that's at that river area (for pics see previous page), in the center of a reed field. Had to create my own crop circle sort of thing, removed the center to create some space for the plants. Obviously too late in the season but figured I can at least test the location this year. The soil is clay. Just clay. Seems dry at the top but is wet just a few inch down. May have to feed them every week or so with some of that liquid organic nutes from B.A.C. I still got. It's like molasses amended with all the essentials and I think will stick well in the clay (instead of getting completely flushed during rain).

Had a few rainy stormy yet warm days and they look surprisingly healthy, expected one or two to survive but they settled all 5. I can see the stem thickening and they are firm in the ground so apparently the roots are able to take up nutes beyond the small amount of soil I provided (from the pots they were in).

Also nice to see zero damage from pests.

Obviously wish I had found the spot a few months earlier but weather forecast looks good and hopefully it will be a long summer.

I'm thinking if these still turn out to produce somewhat of a cola I could do it on purpose next year, start late and do a SoG with 10x10 females. A bit like running 12/12 from the start indoors. At least they won't grow higher than the reed then.

Oh and zero whorling on these... still early.

 

[geologic]

Very cool,
outdoor;
they'll grow in clay--
if everything else is copacetic...