Breeding talk for everyone to understand

[growsince79]

We'll see! It would depend on the definition of true breeding. To change alleles from heterozygous to homozygous requires selfing, which I'm not really looking to do yet.

Im not sure what the seed companies consider stable. My opinion of stable is for example, if you develop a strain that is short, fast, skunky and 20% thc that 98% of the seeds produce the same and the next generation will also.

 

[BogartAmungus]

Because I'm not technically setting the genetics of the IBL until F3 if I'm taking seeds from two different females to make the strain.

If I take a Haze line and an NL5 line and cross a male of each to a female of each:

The first generation is then (NL5 x Haze) and (Haze x NL5).

The second generation could be mothered by either strain, so saying that it's an IBL at this point is inaccurate. It's parallel sets of genetics, not one line because of the two mothers they're taken from.

The third generation of plants is the first one where those parallel sets of genetics are crossed to make an IBL. Because it's the first one where the parents are both definitely involved (all keeper males pollenated all keeper females), it's where the two lines make one.

Who's on first?! Interesting thread as I had grand illusions of some day trying to cross a Zambezi Gold I have seeds of with skunk #1 or the skunk #1 with something sativa. It's way more complicated than I thought it would be and I don't have the space to do it right.

 

[Chad.Westport]

Who's on first?! Interesting thread as I had grand illusions of some day trying to cross a Zambezi Gold I have seeds of with skunk #1 or the skunk #1 with something sativa. It's way more complicated than I thought it would be and I don't have the space to do it right.

Do it anyways, what do you have to lose?

You don't have to understand breeding to make a cross. It takes the breeding part to understand selection of traits and try to lock those in over generations. But if I had those two strains, I'd be curious to see what I get.

 

[growsince79]

Do it anyways, what do you have to lose?

You don't have to understand breeding to make a cross. It takes the breeding part to understand selection of traits and try to lock those in over generations. But if I had those two strains, I'd be curious to see what I get.

Its all fun and you might get lucky.

 

[Chad.Westport]

Im not sure what the seed companies consider stable. My opinion of stable is for example, if you develop a strain that is short, fast, skunky and 20% thc that 98% of the seeds produce the same and the next generation will also.

Stable would be a room of 1000 plants from seed, all with the same canopy level, THC levels and terpene profile IMO.

 

[Aqua Man]

Stable would be a room of 1000 plants from seed, all with the same canopy level, THC levels and terpene profile IMO.

From my reading I'm getting that f5+ to really get IBL?

 

[Grownsince95]

It really is a guessing game for the home grower I think

 

[growsince79]

It really is a guessing game for the home grower I think

I would like to try growing seeds from "pre flower" and compare to seeds grown from the main bud. Maybe the preflower seeds would be early bloomers.

 

[Grownsince95]

I was serious when I said I wanted to send everyone seeds! If I can get just 10 people here to pop 2 beans each, we have 20 plants to look at and discuss idk?
I have a very vigorous, side branchy sativa heavy dad, I'm going to put him in a tent with a Sunset sherbet bx1, a Gran Champagne and a S.A.G.E. plant.

I would like to try growing seeds from "pre flower" and compare to seeds grown from the main bud. Maybe the preflower seeds would be early bloomers.

Not exactly sure 100% what you mean by preflower but I'm happy to help if I can!

 

[JWM2]

From my reading I'm getting that f5+ to really get IBL?

That’s the rule of thumb I’ve always heard. Nice topic btw. Love seeing all the energy being harnessed :-)

 

[growsince79]

I was serious when I said I wanted to send everyone seeds! If I can get just 10 people here to pop 2 beans each, we have 20 plants to look at and discuss idk?
I have a very vigorous, side branchy sativa heavy dad, I'm going to put him in a tent with a Sunset sherbet bx1, a Gran Champagne and a S.A.G.E. plant.
Not exactly sure 100% what you mean by preflower but I'm happy to help if I can!

They calyxs that forms at the main node when a plant gets to a certain age even in veg, not connected to the bud cluster that grows from the branch at that node.

 

[Chad.Westport]

From my reading I'm getting that f5+ to really get IBL?

This is what I've heard. The RQS blog (which has quality info) denotes that by F5 it is considered IBL, good and quick article - https://www.royalqueenseeds.com/blog-basic-genetics-terminology-for-cannabis-n907

I've also heard the law of percentages explained by Brothers Grimm in regards to his Cindy 99. Here are a few things he said -
The progression I went through was:

P.50 = Princess/(ShivaSkunk/Princess’Brother)

P.75 = Princess/P.50

Cinderella 88 = Princess/P.75

Cinderella 99 = Princess/Cinderella 88

Crossing Cindy 88’s will you a variety of phenotypes… they’re not stable. Cindy 99 IS STABLE.

------
Back to my words now.

He said the first generation of the crossed plants had 50% princess, second generation was 75% princess, third generation was 88% princess and the fourth generation was Cindy 99. Basically kept selecting the plants with the princess traits until those were the predominant expression.

 

[Grownsince95]

They calyxs that forms at the main node when a plant gets to a certain age even in veg, not connected to the bud cluster that grows from the branch at that node.

Here?

 

[Chad.Westport]

@Grownsince95 Yes, that is the spot.

My last run did that. I schedule things close and as I was finishing with pollinating the seed tent, my flower room developed pre flowers. About the third week of flower in there I noticed all the pre flowers were pregnant. No seeds in the buds because the male was pulled before the plant actually started to bud, but it made it nice and easy to pick off all the new seeds when they were ready. Kind of a bonus round for seed production. It wasn't many, maybe 15-20 per plant, but still nice ;)

 

[Chad.Westport]

Oh, I'll add, if you are pollinating something, don't have a crop in flower that you wish to remain unseeded. There really is no good way to avoid the pollen from traveling. I learned when a crop through 2 doors, down a hall way, around a corner, through another door around another corner out into the garage and into the flower room got completely pollinated by the one male dropping pollen on the other side of the house.

No way to avoid it, so now I just time the pollination against when I start the flower room. I mentioned it before, but I only need the male to drop pollen for 3 days and everything will be pollinated. I then cull the male.

 

[Grownsince95]

@Grownsince95 Yes, that is the spot.

My last run did that. I schedule things close and as I was finishing with pollinating the seed tent, my flower room developed pre flowers. About the third week of flower in there I noticed all the pre flowers were pregnant. No seeds in the buds because the male was pulled before the plant actually started to bud, but it made it nice and easy to pick off all the new seeds when they were ready. Kind of a bonus round for seed production. It wasn't many, maybe 15-20 per plant, but still nice ;)

So those can be pollinated now? In veg?

 

[growsince79]

Oh, I'll add, if you are pollinating something, don't have a crop in flower that you wish to remain unseeded. There really is no good way to avoid the pollen from traveling. I learned when a crop through 2 doors, down a hall way, around a corner, through another door around another corner out into the garage and into the flower room got completely pollinated by the one male dropping pollen on the other side of the house.

No way to avoid it, so now I just time the pollination against when I start the flower room. I mentioned it before, but I only need the male to drop pollen for 3 days and everything will be pollinated. I then cull the male.

I always remove the male and collect pollen in another room. I turn the fans except the exhaust off for two days while and after pollinating with a tiny paint brush on selected buds. I never had any problem. Maybe one or to strays, but the crop is pretty much seedless except where I pollinate.

 

[Kanzeon]

Who's on first?! Interesting thread as I had grand illusions of some day trying to cross a Zambezi Gold I have seeds of with skunk #1 or the skunk #1 with something sativa. It's way more complicated than I thought it would be and I don't have the space to do it right.

With home breeding, I think the perfect is the enemy of the good. Very few growers are going to be able to run out 1000 plants at a time, But it's not that hard to cross a couple plants and do a pheno hunt. What ends up happening (hopefully) is that genetics are naturally so widespread that corporations have trouble patenting theirs. Very similar to heirloom tomato and pepper seeds.

100 is totally feasible. Start them under 12/12, say 85 pop. Then kill the seedlings that are less vigorous, then there are only 60 or so. Then let them start showing sex and kill the first ones to show unless trying to make an early flowering strain, down to 45. Kill any that carry herm traits, down to 35. 17 males and females, essentially. Expose them to drought, wind, cold, and heat and kill the ones that have the least resistance, down to 20, 10 and 10. Pick the best 3-4 of each. Veg the ones that match the ideal selection to your desired size, flip, let them stretch, and pollenate with the best males. Do that for a year or three and then it's IBL time.

At least to the best of my understanding, if anyone has thoughts on that process please feel free.

Nothing in there is super intricate. It's just the initial fear of failure that keeps people from trying things. Each seed contains a universe, each germination is a big bang. Each plant is a world that the breeder gets to choose, create, shape to their liking, and discard EVERYTHING else. We create through destruction. And then we create so that we can kill again. ☠

 

[JWM2]

Oh, I'll add, if you are pollinating something, don't have a crop in flower that you wish to remain unseeded. There really is no good way to avoid the pollen from traveling. I learned when a crop through 2 doors, down a hall way, around a corner, through another door around another corner out into the garage and into the flower room got completely pollinated by the one male dropping pollen on the other side of the house.

No way to avoid it, so now I just time the pollination against when I start the flower room. I mentioned it before, but I only need the male to drop pollen for 3 days and everything will be pollinated. I then cull the male.

This is what I've heard. The RQS blog (which has quality info) denotes that by F5 it is considered IBL, good and quick article - https://www.royalqueenseeds.com/blog-basic-genetics-terminology-for-cannabis-n907

I've also heard the law of percentages explained by Brothers Grimm in regards to his Cindy 99. Here are a few things he said -
The progression I went through was:

P.50 = Princess/(ShivaSkunk/Princess’Brother)

P.75 = Princess/P.50

Cinderella 88 = Princess/P.75

Cinderella 99 = Princess/Cinderella 88

Crossing Cindy 88’s will you a variety of phenotypes… they’re not stable. Cindy 99 IS STABLE.

------
Back to my words now.

He said the first generation of the crossed plants had 50% princess, second generation was 75% princess, third generation was 88% princess and the fourth generation was Cindy 99. Basically kept selecting the plants with the princess traits until those were the predominant expression.

I learned that lesson the hard way as well. Heh.

 

[Dirtbag]

With home breeding, I think the perfect is the enemy of the good. Very few growers are going to be able to run out 1000 plants at a time, But it's not that hard to cross a couple plants and do a pheno hunt. What ends up happening (hopefully) is that genetics are naturally so widespread that corporations have trouble patenting theirs. Very similar to heirloom tomato and pepper seeds.

100 is totally feasible. Start them under 12/12, say 85 pop. Then kill the seedlings that are less vigorous, then there are only 60 or so. Then let them start showing sex and kill the first ones to show unless trying to make an early flowering strain, down to 45. Kill any that carry herm traits, down to 35. 17 males and females, essentially. Expose them to drought, wind, cold, and heat and kill the ones that have the least resistance, down to 20, 10 and 10. Pick the best 3-4 of each. Veg the ones that match the ideal selection to your desired size, flip, let them stretch, and pollenate with the best males. Do that for a year or three and then it's IBL time.

At least to the best of my understanding, if anyone has thoughts on that process please feel free.

Nothing in there is super intricate. It's just the initial fear of failure that keeps people from trying things. Each seed contains a universe, each germination is a big bang. Each plant is a world that the breeder gets to choose, create, shape to their liking, and discard EVERYTHING else. We create through destruction. And then we create so that we can kill again. ☠

Its also a lot more work with a whole lot less finished pot than production runs lol. Thats whats always put me off...