Thanks Postman. Yeah, so I already have a fairly good idea of what the problem is, just need to figure out the cause. I believe it is exactly as you say - P isn't being taking up. Whether its a lockout issue alone, or under feeding I am unsure. I monitor my levels everyday and shit has been been out of wack for little while now. Basically i'm dropping anywhere from .5-1.0 pH everyday. ppms have remained at 420 accross the board. I'm thinking that the pH drop probably has something to do with fungus gnat issues im having. The little buggers are flying all over my hydroton and netpots inside the lids. Pretty sure the larvae are munching on the roots and could be effecting my pH? Been waiting on caps bennies to arrive to get that BTI in there and some more fortifying microbes. Hoping that this will help solve the dropping pH.

My feeding regimen has always been on the low side I think. Tried dilligently to always tend towards lower than higher. ppm has never been above 450. Since my feeding has been conservative...it makes it difficult to know for sure whether my problems are from a lockout only, due to low pH, or from underfeeding. The room drank 40g last night so at least theyre still drinking. How does 40g/day sound to other UC'ers out there?

Yup...sounds like your on to something with the dropping ph. Thats deff a sign of something gone wrong and for sure is locking you out.
I could be wrong but If i remember correctly back a few pages did you mention that you dont change out your res regularly? If this is true my guess would be thats whats causing your lockout. Time for a res change. There are lots of people that get by just fine without changing their reservoir weekly so i know it can be done. IMO when you have as much invested as we do its too much of a risk to take. I would flush for a day and start your res fresh. Weekly res change outs with an occasional (once every 2 or 3 weeks or so) plain water or very low ppm rinse and i'm willing to bet your plants will love you for it. Btw They look like they shoud have no problem recovering as long as those roots look just as good as the plant.

Sounds like you need to increase your nutrient levels a bit......most of the strains grown in a UC especially indica dominate are usually very happy at around 800PPM to 1000PPM (x500 conversion rate) at the peak flowering stages which is usually around week 6 of flower.....for a 8 to 10 week strain.

You want to slowly up the nutrient levels to week 6 in flower and then begin to taper back down during the last weeks leading to the flushing/harvesting period.

After week 6 of flower (exceptions being sativa dominant strains) most strains do not uptake much more nutrients anyhow after this period in its growth cycle is reached...you also want to get the plant to start using up what it has stored in the leaves during the latter weeks of flower, as this is really the only way to really "flush" the plants for a very clean and tasty final product anyhow...over feeding until the last week or 2 and then feeding nothing but water....does nothing IMO.

Your effective flushing methods stem from a proper nutrient feeding program, and then the "cure" which takes place after harvesting.

While I am on the topic, I have found most growers fail to grasp and understand this concept. It is also why you will hear some say that flushing products like ClearX from Botanicare is snake oil and does not work which is not true at all......it actually does work well and very well indeed I might add.....PROVIDED that you followed a proper nutrient program and practiced good methods/habits and did not over feed the living hell out of your plants for its entire life cycles, and then expect the flushing product to fix it all in a weeks time....there is really nothing that can be done when you continue to over feed the plants for extended periods of time.....

Thanks to marketing experts, self proclaimed growing "experts", and greed, you can bet most over feed by a lot......

Mr postman said:

Yup...sounds like your on to something with the dropping ph. Thats deff a sign of something gone wrong and for sure is locking you out.
I could be wrong but If i remember correctly back a few pages did you mention that you dont change out your res regularly? If this is true my guess would be thats whats causing your lockout. Time for a res change. There are lots of people that get by just fine without changing their reservoir weekly so i know it can be done. IMO when you have as much invested as we do its too much of a risk to take. I would flush for a day and start your res fresh. Weekly res change outs with an occasional (once every 2 or 3 weeks or so) plain water or very low ppm rinse and i'm willing to bet your plants will love you for it. Btw They look like they shoud have no problem recovering as long as those roots look just as good as the plant.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips Postman. I did a flush and added a fresh profile yesterday, so hoping that starts to turn things around. I'm noticing more and more plants beginning to yellow and curl down hard. Also necrotic patches and red stems...seems like it's definitely a P issue.

You mention running a flush for 24 hours. What are the advantages to this? If I only flush long enough to get the ppm's out of the water, is that enough? Will adding in new nutes right after the fresh water is in the system continue the lockout or something and not properly flush them?

Out of curiosity, how exactly does lockout work? The guy at my hydro store basically said that the nutrient molecule, for example P, leaves behind a Hydrogen ion when the P is taken up by the plant. Says the Hydrogen ions are acidic, which causes the pH of the solution to drop. If this is true, then does a lockout simply mean an abundance of Hydrogen ions in the medium? If so, then it seems like flushing them out and replacing with fresh water is a good call. He also said that pH drop is a good sign in flower that the plants are taking up P. Said his pH always drops during flower. What do you all think about this..is it true? I was under the impression that most people, in the UC anyways, experience rising pH. For example, set at ~5.5 and let it rise to ~6.2 etc..

HydroRocks said:

Sounds like you need to increase your nutrient levels a bit......most of the strains grown in a UC especially indica dominate are usually very happy at around 800PPM to 1000PPM (x500 conversion rate) at the peak flowering stages which is usually around week 6 of flower.....for a 8 to 10 week strain.

You want to slowly up the nutrient levels to week 6 in flower and then begin to taper back down during the last weeks leading to the flushing/harvesting period.

After week 6 of flower (exceptions being sativa dominant strains) most strains do not uptake much more nutrients anyhow after this period in its growth cycle is reached...you also want to get the plant to start using up what it has stored in the leaves during the latter weeks of flower, as this is really the only way to really "flush" the plants for a very clean and tasty final product anyhow...over feeding until the last week or 2 and then feeding nothing but water....does nothing IMO.

Your effective flushing methods stem from a proper nutrient feeding program, and then the "cure" which takes place after harvesting.

While I am on the topic, I have found most growers fail to grasp and understand this concept. It is also why you will hear some say that flushing products like ClearX from Botanicare is snake oil and does not work which is not true at all......it actually does work well and very well indeed I might add.....PROVIDED that you followed a proper nutrient program and practiced good methods/habits and did not over feed the living hell out of your plants for its entire life cycles, and then expect the flushing product to fix it all in a weeks time....there is really nothing that can be done when you continue to over feed the plants for extended periods of time.....

Thanks to marketing experts, self proclaimed growing "experts", and greed, you can bet most over feed by a lot......

Click to expand...

Thanks hydro, I appreciate the advice. Is the 800-1000ppm you mention including a tapwater base ppm, or RO? 800-1000 seems a bit higher than many people i've seen growing in the UC? There are exceptions of course...Jack's ppm's were way up there but he also had very hard water if i remember correctly. My tap comes in at 10ppm. I'm starting to think I may be underfeeding as well though. Definitely have been playing it conservative I think, so maybe its time to get a little more aggressive. I flushed and did a new profile today upping the ppm's a bit. 6ml/g base, 2ml/g calmag, 2ml/g pk1314. Total ppm's 530. Thinking of waiting a day or two and seeing if there is any improvement and if not then ill bump it up a bit again.

I think my max on ppms so far have only gone up to about 800.seems if i go any higher in flower they will start to burn.Ive only been running white urkle and sd though.The sd can handle a little more than the WU.Just my observations, peace,fuzzy

BCboys said:

Thanks for the tips Postman. I did a flush and added a fresh profile yesterday, so hoping that starts to turn things around. I'm noticing more and more plants beginning to yellow and curl down hard. Also necrotic patches and red stems...seems like it's definitely a P issue.

You mention running a flush for 24 hours. What are the advantages to this? If I only flush long enough to get the ppm's out of the water, is that enough? Will adding in new nutes right after the fresh water is in the system continue the lockout or something and not properly flush them?

Out of curiosity, how exactly does lockout work? The guy at my hydro store basically said that the nutrient molecule, for example P, leaves behind a Hydrogen ion when the P is taken up by the plant. Says the Hydrogen ions are acidic, which causes the pH of the solution to drop. If this is true, then does a lockout simply mean an abundance of Hydrogen ions in the medium? If so, then it seems like flushing them out and replacing with fresh water is a good call. He also said that pH drop is a good sign in flower that the plants are taking up P. Said his pH always drops during flower. What do you all think about this..is it true? I was under the impression that most people, in the UC anyways, experience rising pH. For example, set at ~5.5 and let it rise to ~6.2 etc..

Click to expand...

Hydro dudes got it backwards, healthy pH drift is up. Sounds like he's been reading DS posts, just not paying close enough attention. Most likely your pH drift downward is a side effect of tea infusions or sloughed off root material/exudate. Either way it indicates biomass in your nute solution so be guarded moving forward. Are you using anything besides the canna line up? You should consider UC Roots to keep your root zone tidy.

Dump the soup and refill a fresh batch and pump the nutes up to 600- 700 ppm conv .5
They will love u for it. Plants that are flushed and refilled often are way more healthy than not
I try to do it no later than every 2 weeks sometimes every week and the ladies love it

UCMENOW said:

Hydro dudes got it backwards, healthy pH drift is up. Sounds like he's been reading DS posts, just not paying close enough attention. Most likely your pH drift downward is a side effect of tea infusions or sloughed off root material/exudate. Either way it indicates biomass in your nute solution so be guarded moving forward. Are you using anything besides the canna line up? You should consider UC Roots to keep your root zone tidy.

Click to expand...

Hmm interesting. Hadn't really considered the tea could be the cause of the drop. So basically anything once living as it decomposes (organisms in tea, roots) will become acidic?

Im using Canna Flora A+B, pk13/14, botanicare calmag+, and EWC tea (EWC, Zho, Aquashield, Molasses). Any idea what the active ingredient in UC Roots is? It's not a sterilizer I take it? Thanks for the help!

BudGoggles said:

Dump the soup and refill a fresh batch and pump the nutes up to 600- 700 ppm conv .5
They will love u for it. Plants that are flushed and refilled often are way more healthy than not
I try to do it no later than every 2 weeks sometimes every week and the ladies love it

Click to expand...

Thanks BG, advice taken, and I think ill be hopping aboard the wagon of more frequent flushes as well. Since I changed out the water the other day, pH has completely stabilized and actually rose 0.2 over two days. I also upped my ppm to 600 today. Many thanks.

You can tell when they want fresh juice they get that DAaaa look to em

BCboys said:

Hmm interesting. Hadn't really considered the tea could be the cause of the drop. So basically anything once living as it decomposes (organisms in tea, roots) will become acidic?

Im using Canna Flora A+B, pk13/14, botanicare calmag+, and EWC tea (EWC, Zho, Aquashield, Molasses). Any idea what the active ingredient in UC Roots is? It's not a sterilizer I take it? Thanks for the help!

Click to expand...

Humates in solution typically result in humic acids, which can influence pH. In my opinion I'd drop the molasses as it lends towards bacterial dominant teas containing aerobic and anaerobic populations. They're off gassing can def influence pH which could be part of your scenario.

During bloom your plants benefit more from fungally dominant teas from what I understand.

UC Roots is Hypochlorous Acid, though it's pH nuetral. It's far less of a sterilant and more of a mineral solublizer, keeping biofilms from forming (which deters pathogens) and keeping cal and mag more available. If anything alternate the use of teas with UC Roots.

Uptake of N can cause ph to climb and the uptake of P can cause ph to drop slightly "Hydro store dude is right about that"...Having said that , it doesnt cause that drastic of a drop and your ultimate goal is a steady climb in your ph. I use Dyna bloom in my hydro for flowering and have an occasional drop in my ph during bloom(sometimes .2 or.3 drop in 24 hours) and have great yields.
I think your ph drop deff wasnt the same situation. What your doing now should get you back on track in no time. All the advice i have read so far above is good advice IMO. Good luck bro I'll be checkn in to see how you make out

I dont know about the malasses either.I havent been brave enough to use it in this system and im on the same recipe as you are except for the tea and malasses.I try to keep it pretty simple and its worked so far.

Here's some pics of day 32....sorry about the lighting. These ones were snapped with my iPhone. No white balance.



Platonic Chronic













Afghani x Sweettooth







BB/BD

Looks like you may have to put another training bra on them suckers,lol.They look nice to me BC

Haha thanks fuzzy. Yeah they're starting to swell and lean a bit. I'll be putting up the second screen this next week!

Uc roots is hyperchlorite Like Ucmenow said. Its a sterilizer as you know, if you use it now you will kill the good bacteria you have been cultivating.

Molasses, is the sugar that feeds the bacteria you are "culturing" in tea. The majority of the sugars will be consumed during brewing, if tea is not replenished in the Uc, the tea will die off. If you stop the sugars, might as well not use the tea. Thats why the "weekly" maintenance dose is so critical to stay on top of. The small amount of molasses you add, will not cause your issue. Sample it, take 5 gallons of pure water and add the molasses, then test ur ph. The drop is minimal UNLESS ur molasses has other additives? I tested mine and had .2 drop for reference. 6.6-6.4. 30ml of my hi-brix added to 5gal of r.o water. (hope the test I took helps)

Are you seeing any drooping leaves/yellowing? Especially on the lowers?
As my rot and others like cap and ghetto noted, saw the same. Also using the tea once the rot has established itself, was a treatment to reap a full harvest, not a cure.

Something to consider, pythium and these fungus we battle are sometimes systemic and live within the plant. Its possible you have clones that carried the fugus already. I liken it to diabetes, no cure, but a treatment plan. Many, many, threads here and in the mpb's started great, then turned sour with rot and the crops were lost or limped in...The few I read that used tea had great success unlike all the flip flopping and new product tests. Another reason I stayed the course troubleshooting using every product available at the time, with no success once rot was fuckin blastin away at the roots.

Look at the ur Uc, check the basics.
Pre filters clear and clean? Any slow of water thru the bones will cause aggressive rot on one side. Check ur temps, check for pump or water restriction, check ur airstones and air lines, look for light leaks, this was a huge factor for my rot at home! algae went crazy on me. I can geed no more than 850, ever. I also had the same, if not better results with 450-500. Look at the base of the stalks and check for any stem rot that could be unnoticed. This will also cause you to have massive ph drops. Cuts in rapid rooters treated me terrible! I had 50%+ plants with stem rot. I have a plan for success on that as well.

Any way, look thru any notes you take, and see if any new products were added and/or dropped. Good wishes, I have no doubt its solvable.

They look happy bro
I would keep doing a fresh nute change out every 2 weeks here on out keep the soup fresh

I agree with BG, they look very happy indeed, just wanted to throw down a little info. That harvest will be fat with love!!