Cheap alternatives to overpriced hydroponic nutrients

[Capulator]

Yup awesome thread, helped me a lot because all the initial info I read on this was just use the 2 parts and you're good to go, but now I see a lot (if not most) add epsom salt to the mix and that would be why my plants (especially one of the strains) are showing MG deficiency. I'm also glad I read this because I finally decided to switch to EC mode on my Blue Labs meter and realized why my plants were burning a bit at 600ppm (was using .5 EC conversion). I'm at 1.1 EC now, plants are getting big and I'm about to change to 12/12.

I ratio I was using used a little more of the cal-nit than mentioned here, so I bumped up the base stuff when I topped off this time. Also added half a gram (per gallon per my concentrated dosing) of epsom salts and I'll add more afterwards if needed, gave them a nice foliar spray couple days ago and they are turning around.

So the general consensus seems to be to basically use the same formula through flower? For anybody here who dials back on the cal-nit, do you find you need to supplement additional calcium?

Also, didn't see much info regarding PH, JRPeters claims this line of nutes is good to go at up to 8PH I believe. My water is 80ppm (well water) and have had it tested by jrpeters and it's very clean, but it is 7.8 PH. I just started using modest amounts of PH Down (half nitrate form, half potassium) to at least get it down to 6.6. Should I trust it without PH Down or do you guys feel I'm doing the right thing, or should go even further and get it down to 6.3 or so?

I run 900ppm and my plants don't burn. I even give this to seedlings and rooted cuts. I believe JR peters recommends epsom salt on the bag of the 5-12-26 but I don't remember for sure. 600ppm is practically 1.1 EC on a 500 scale by the way..

 

[Capulator]

I have been sourcing my inorganic salts from a large multi-national supplier. Their representatives sell three grades of chemicals: reagent, greenhouse, and agricultural. Reagent is orders of magnitude greater in price than greenhouse which is multiple times in price of agricultural. The other difference is the levels of purity. Reagent grade is for laboratory use. Greenhouse grade is what some claim to be "food" grade. One time, I was picking up some supplies and the secretary asked me if I was using some of the chems for processing food. I asked her why and she told me that I would have to be taxed differently. Nothing was said about the difference in quality. Another time I needed another bag of magnesium sulphate. When I came in for my phone in order, I noticed that the label was different from the other times I bought some. It said "magnesium sulphate" in big letters so I thought nothing of it. At home, upon closer inspection, I noticed the mono/hepta difference when comparing the old bag with the new bag. The new bag also had the word "agricultural grade" on it. I always opt for the best purity I can afford within reason.

BRO taxed differently means NO TAX if you are in Cali. Ferilizers for use on food crops are non taxable!

 

[Capulator]

@oscar169

ask

@Quantrill

 

[Fresh Starts]

So how many grams of epsom would I need in a Gallon stock solution, If I wanted it at the 1 Gram per gallon when I was weighing it out ?

This was my dilemma as well. So far I've found an equation useful to keep the ratio of Epsom Salts in correct levels when mixing with Jacks Hydro from stock solutions. When I mix Jacks I take the total ppm in the reservoir and multiply it by (.17) and that reflects the target ppm (on a .5 conversion scale) Epsom salts should be at.

My goal was to stay within mixing guidelines from JR Peters. There is definitely room for improvement on the process and I welcome feedback.

The equation
(x)(.17)=M

Jacks Hydro ppm = X
Epsom salt ppm=M

Example a.
Lets shoot for 450 ppm of Jacks.
(450)(.17) = 76.5
M=76.5

The total ppm of Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate= 76.5

Finding the ppm of Cal/Nit:

Cal/Nit ppm=c
(x)(.6666667)=c

Example b.
(450)(.6666667)=300

Total ppm of reservoir solution= (x)+(c)+(m)
(450)+(300)+(76.5)=826.5 ppm



Here's where I'm going with this eventually.
MgS04 Can be dissolved @ 71 grams per 100 ml of cold water to create a stock solution. When mixing the first batch of fertilizer in the reservoir take note of how many ml's of Epsom Salt stock it takes to hit the target ppm of 76.5. Now you have a stock solution mixing guide.

*Side note
If you have plants that require more or less Epsom you can simply adjust the (.17) ratio between (.15-2.0) when multiplying. I find in pure coco Mg deficiencies crop up with out Epsom additions rather quickly and that plants ease back into focus with the (.17 ) mixing level- I've yet to dial it all in but it seems like coco users can easily push it to (2.0) or more.

I'm still going to create a whole guide for all three stock solutions, sorry it's taking me so long. Been busy.

 

[oscar169]

@Fresh Starts thanks for the above info, nice thing is when we all get theses stock solutions nailed down, it will be smooth sailing, can't wait to not have to weigh out everything all the time, there will still be somethings that I will have to weigh but over time I'm going to try and move just about everything to solutions, I have a post from Cap that show how to make a Liquid MOAB with the MAP & MKP

Here is the one from @Capulator

It looks like that poster is using npk ratios and not elemental ratios. The difference being when P or K is listed on a label, it is listing P2o5 and K20, which are not quite the same as just listing the elemental ratio of P and K.

P2o5 and K20 have to be broken down, and so usable/available K and usable P are different from what it says on the bag. The usable P and K is found through a mathematical calculation, which is why I use a nutrient calculator like the free one at custom hydro nutrients. This does the math for you.

So for example MKP is 0-52-34 on the bag. When you put this in the nute calculator though at let's say 1 gram in one gallon of water, you will actually get:

0 ppm N
60 ppm P
and 75 ppm K

This is elemental ppm (parts per million), the actual P and K available, not the "numbers on the bag"


You can make a liquid concentrate version if you multiply the required amount per gallon by 250x and then use 15 mL/ gal in your res.

So take a 1 gallon jug, fill it 3/4 full with RO water.

Add 25 grams of MAP and 267.5 grams of MKP.

Fill up the jug the rest of the way with RO water so you have a gallon of solution. You may now use this concentrated solution at 15mL/gallon, the equivalent of one tsp per gallon of powdered MOAB.


Vitamin B is horseshit. Look up the myth of vitamin B it's here on the farm somewhere.

 

[Quantrill]

If you want to make a stock solution of something that you are currently weighing out as grams per gallon. Simply take the grams per gallon and multiply it by 250, then you will use 15 mL per gallon of the stock.

for example magnesium sulfate at 1 gram per gallon, simply fill a jug about 75% full add 250 grams of magnesium sulfate, shake until dissolved, top off with water until the gallon is full and use this stock at 15 mL per gallon to get 26 ppm Mg in the nutrient solution.


or to use 10 Ml/gallon of the stock multiply your weight by 378.5
or to use 5 mL/gallon of the stock multiply your weights by 750
or to use one ounce/gallon of the stock multiply your weights by 128

 

[justanotherbozo]

...this seems counter intuitive but the way i solved my own sediment problem was pretty simple.

what i do is i mix my nutes in 2 gallon containers and i usually do 6 containers at a time, anyway, all i do is i add the cal/nit to my straight tap water filled jugs, and i often fill them with water just before i start this process so the water is cold, and then i walk away and get busy either doing something else or sittin' on my kiester, the point is that that was all i needed to do to solve my problem, just give the cal/nit time to fully dissolve before adding the base nute. (i don't have a precise length of time that would be needed for this as i am a casual kinda guy so i'll often just go play a game of TigerWoods14 and once the game is done i go finish up, so 30 minutes should be plenty of time)

...since i started doing things this way i no longer have a sediment issue.

peace, bozo

 

[GR33NL3AF]

I don't mix them together...I'm referring to mixing up a solution of the 5-12-26 for later application. I have 0 issues dissolving the cal-nit, only the 5-12-26

Have you tried mixing the Jacks in a bucket with a circulating pump then pouring it into your container for storage? When I mix me res' I always use a 550GPH or greater pump to keep things moving, takes 2-3 minutes to dissolve.

 

[Fresh Starts]

I brought this up on another forum and nobody seemed to have the issue so I'll ask here.

I have issues getting the 5-12-26 to dissolve fully. I'm always left with a pile of stuff on the bottom. I contacted JRPeters and they even sent me a new container of it and while this dissolves better, I'm still left with a pile of stuff on the bottom (smaller granules than before on the new batch).

I'm using all distilled water, heating it up beforehand, I've even tried near boiling temperatures and I have blisters on my hands from shaking the jug so much. It's a thin layer that basically covers the whole bottom of this gallon of distilled. Others said it was probably the calcium in my tap water causing stuff to drop out, but I'm using all distilled now and still have the issue.

Do you guys just pour the stuff in a jug and shake it for a while? Should I be using a damn blender or something?

How much time are you allowing the solution to rest before using? The longest i've have to wait for a stock solution to dissolve is two days @ 75 degree ambient temps. And that is with a moderate amount of shaking to promote dissolving. Just my two cents here, but perhaps RO/purified water may prove successful?

 

[Fresh Starts]

Are you accounting for the magnesium that's already in the hydroponic nutrients? That seems like a lot of mg but I'd like to hear how long that's been working for you. I assumed it came with plenty of everything and I wouldn't have to bother with that, but I ran into some pretty bag mg deficiency and have been googling a lot to find out how much to add. I've been told to add as little a .25 grams per gallon and as much as 1 gram (which is about 26ppm of additional mg plus around 34ppm sulfur). Per your math I'd be using over 10x that amount.

From what I've seen, the added magnesium is mandatory in pure coco. With intense lighting I was running into mg issues. With my nutes running at 750 ppm (without mg) I add 1 gram per gallon and it raises my ppm by about 80. Total ppm of solution after mg added is around 830-840. I have some bud setting going on right now that I'll try to post later.

 

[Fresh Starts]

Bud set @ day 28.

Are you accounting for the magnesium that's already in the hydroponic nutrients? That seems like a lot of mg but I'd like to hear how long that's been working for you.

Am I accounting for it or is JR peters accounting for it? After all, its their recipe. Magnesium levels are flexible depending on application- which like you said range from 0- 1 gram per gallon. Since I dilute my solution depending on the stages of my plants I also needed to dilute the addition of magnesium while keeping the upper limit of it in solution, Ya dig? Hence the math up there. As for how its working out so far I'd say pretty good.

I assumed it came with plenty of everything and I wouldn't have to bother with that, but I ran into some pretty bag mg deficiency and have been googling a lot to find out how much to add. I've been told to add as little a .25 grams per gallon and as much as 1 gram (which is about 26ppm of additional mg plus around 34ppm sulfur). Per your math I'd be using over 10x that amount.

I'm curious how you arrived at 10x amount? Did some thing outlined above lead you to believe 10 grams per gallon was what I was stating?:sorry:

 

[GR33NL3AF]

View attachment 386097

Bud set @ day 28.

How are your ladies looking? Are your ratios working out?

 

[Surfandgrow]

Does the 3g jacks, 1.8g CaNO3 and 1. mg Epsom apply through the entire vegetative process? What are your vegetative formulas? Grams per gallon please. Also what are your weekly feeding schedules from veg week 1 to flower week 8? Do I need to add anything else along the way like carbs? Do I no longer need to use big bud superthrive or bud candy? Overdrive? Does the Jacks formula take into account all of those other ingredients? What about the fact that nute companies preform so well because of all the undisclosed PGRS they mix in for us. M B F E R T S has a vitamin hormone boost pack that puts all that stuff back in. Anyone ever try that or does the Jacks do as well as the other label brand hydro nutes without all the hormones? This is an Amazing thread and snowblinds links are improving my knowledge 100 fold. Thank you everyone on the farm for sharing your secrets with us. We couldn't do it without you.

 

[squarepusher]

I brought this up on another forum and nobody seemed to have the issue so I'll ask here.

I have issues getting the 5-12-26 to dissolve fully. I'm always left with a pile of stuff on the bottom. I contacted JRPeters and they even sent me a new container of it and while this dissolves better, I'm still left with a pile of stuff on the bottom (smaller granules than before on the new batch).

I'm using all distilled water, heating it up beforehand, I've even tried near boiling temperatures and I have blisters on my hands from shaking the jug so much. It's a thin layer that basically covers the whole bottom of this gallon of distilled. Others said it was probably the calcium in my tap water causing stuff to drop out, but I'm using all distilled now and still have the issue.

Do you guys just pour the stuff in a jug and shake it for a while? Should I be using a damn blender or something?

Your best option is to not mix an intermediary 'jug' concentrate. Nutrient precipitation/dissolve rate occurs in accordance with concentration, so mixing a higher concentrate formula will more likely have issues with this. If my understanding of your situation is correct, the best advice would be to simply calculate how much powder you need for your final reservoir, and add in powder directly there to the final reservoir (for example 100 gallons or whatever). Add the powder in slowly and stir it in as it goes. Its fairly simple math to calculate this out exactly how much you will need, and should have nearly 100% dissolve rate.

let me know what you think

 

[Fresh Starts]

How are your ladies looking? Are your ratios working out?

The ladies are performing quite nicely. I'm thoroughly converted and I will never buy into bottled nutrient regimens ever again. Thanks for asking

 

[Fresh Starts]

Platinum Og on JR Peters :snaphappy:

Cherry Pie OG

 

[Natural]

It's really amazing to see JR Peter's become Jack's Proffessional. They've really been working their lines. Way back in the 80's if a kid wanted nutrients it was either Miracle Grow or Peter's 20-20-20 and Peter's Super Blossom. Peter's rocked outdoors.

 

[Surfandgrow]

Also how often do you water everyday and how much water do you feed each plant? I use 3-5 gallon smart pots in coco and water once a day. Each of the 40 pots gets watered for ten seconds each and then the process is repeated 3 times total. So 30 seconds total once a day or 1 gallon per plant per day. Anybody try phosphoload with Jacks?

 

[Surfandgrow]

Are you adding Silica to the Jacks mix? What kind/brand? How much? Gram/ml per gallon?

 

[Fresh Starts]

Are you adding Silica to the Jacks mix? What kind/brand? How much? Gram/ml per gallon?

No silica added here..