Cheap alternatives to overpriced hydroponic nutrients

[tweedy]

coming from the tap I'm around 500-700 (.5 scale). My final EC rests around 2.7

In coco, rockwool, peat... this formula works with any substrate.

Hoooooly shit! Mine comes out of the tap at 70. That is crazy!

 

[Lurkin4yrs]

coming from the tap I'm around 500-700 (.5 scale). My final EC rests around 2.7

In coco, rockwool, peat... this formula works with any substrate.

Have you tested ur tap? I have well water and it comes out 800 or so, I got a test done and it didn't look good to much sulfates etc.

-lurkin

 

[Big JAE]

I will read into that thank you. There are a few reasons why I chose to go with 5 gallon DWC buckets. First reason is where I live the medical marijuana laws only allow twelve plants per person. So it's easier for me to be able to grow super cropped plants + LST the hell out of them + pinch crushing the stems so I end up with 1/2" branches able to hold them up after flowering.

If I don't use the LST method and pinch crushing the stems I ALWAYS have had to pay way to much attention to them keeping them from flopping over and getting ruined. I lost so many monster colas that fell over while I was gone for a day only to return to a huge mess. Yes I have an extra two weeks of veg growth because of my methods but its ok.

It’s a hobby for me not something I rely on or else I would watch over them all the time. Plus for some reason unless you order soil that's delivered from way out of town you will have bugs. I know tons of people that bought bug filled medium. This I don't know why but I told them when they were going to reuse any soil after a cycle to bake it in an oven little bits at a time and then add all the stuff to it to get it ready.

This next part I describe my outdoor technique and am looking for opinions and advice

This is how I get my few outdoor girls ready and am just wondering what you guys think of the method so read on if you have time and leave your thoughts. I have gotten nothing but great advice from everyone in here. It’s nice not to have random shit talkers everywhere like many other forums. Still interested on suggestions where I can get some feminized head band seeds that aren't crazy expensive.

My outdoor plants I always plant the same with a 3 gallon bucket of miracle grow organic soil mixed with 30% vermiculite. I take a 5 gallon bucket with the bottom cut out dig a hole until it fits in the ground all the way 2 inches below the surface, fill it with the miracle grow vermiculite medium, I soak my medium when the hole is half filled and then again when totally filled with my hydroponics veg mix nutrient solution. Then I throw the lid on the bucket lightly cover it with whatever is around and mark each buckets spot with GPS.

I let the buckets sit like that all winter until spring when I find each bucket and drop 2ft multiple branch many nodded feminized cloners usually late April early May when the lows at night are above 55. I only put 5 plants outside because I don't have a place to put more and be able to space them properly. I was taught doing it this way lets the nutrients break down all winter and when the plants get to them they are supposed to work awesome. Plus obviously the spots are pre ready and make it very easy and simple to plop a clone in!

 

[ilaughlast]

Pics or it didn't happen =X

-lurkin

haha i just had a silver tip coome back from four labs claiming it was the highest test they had ever seen. all four labs. the lowest test was at a pretty reputable lab that does gas chrom. and they dont have the crazy high numbers associated with other labs. that place said it was over 27 and the highest theyve ever run. the other places went up as high as 32+ and again claimed it to be thier all time highest thc test.
they put a picture of it in the weekly. bud of the month.

 

[ilaughlast]

im A proud papa. lol i didnt do anything special its just a dank ass strain. kept it healthy. not easy actually with that one. it yellows out super fucking early. i kept it healthy though and it looked georgeous but to tell you the truth it didnt look that insane considering.

 

[Fresh Starts]

Kelp4less.com is a great website. I consider their Enzyme powder, B-vitamin complex and Amino acid complex good cheap buys.

 

[Capulator]

Have you tested ur tap? I have well water and it comes out 800 or so, I got a test done and it didn't look good to much sulfates etc.

-lurkin

Yeah I had my city water tested at around 60ppm Ca and everythign else negligible.

 

[Big JAE]

For the most part genetics will determine THC content although it's the growers responsibility to provide the environment that will allow the strain to perform at it's peak.

Your question about magnesium in DWC has to do with cation exchange capacity- which I encourage you to read about via a google search some time even though for now you need not worry about it because you are running true hydroponics.

Coco users (like me) have to deal with the unique cation exchange capacity (CEC) of coconut coir (-) which has a negative charge and thus attracts big ions like calcium and potassium because they are the biggest ions by physical means and have the largest (+) positive charge (opposites attract). Once the matrix threshold is satisfied (think carpet rubbed ballon dipped into styrofoam bits) the Coco coir holds these ions in a matrix so that their levels are actually elevated. Due to this CEC function the potassium and calcium levels are higher than JPH in true hydro and need extra Mg throughout the cycle. The 3-2-1 recipe addresses this issue by balancing the elevated Ca with more Mg albeit since Jacks Pro Hydro has a high level of potassium it ultimately lacks the flexibility needed to be a perfect coco recipe. And thus members like @Capulator and others have decided that it is worth re-engineering a new recipe for coco bringing K levels into suitable ranges.

True Hydropincs = No CEC matrix to fulfill and K and Ca levels stay available at the desired rates. JPH has adequate levels of Mg already and supplementation can be given minimally according to environment and plant metabolism. :bookworm:

Hello again, you were so helpful with that info on the Jacks I thought maybe I would run something else by you. Also while I'm here I got pictures of a couple of my outdoor ladies I haven't pulled yet and a few pics from my new usb endo microscope. Plus I after seeing those results you posted I ordered some cali 818 headband seeds! I also ordered pineapple chunk, Chemdog X big bud and ten other feminized strains from Bonza seeds. They had a dirty dozen promotion where if you spent so much they gave you 12 different feminized seeds so I'm going to be moving struff around and dedicating some space to a mother plant section.

I'm a little nervous about using the jacks solution inside because I'm afraid I'll get the amounts wrong so when the time comes and I'm close to mixing up the nutes, I'll be back to ask if I'm doing it right. Anyways my question. What do you think, have you ever used seaweed extract? I was told if I wanted to triple the flavor and add twice as many trichomes at the end of harvest to add this stuff during week 2, 4, 6, and 8. The person who told me this grows commercially and makes his own nutrients. He buys 50lb bags and mixes them himself. So he seemed like he knew what he was talking about. Just wondering what you thought.

 

[ilaughlast]

Yeah I had my city water tested at around 60ppm Ca and everythign else negligible.

thanks for sharing that.
im really excited to play around with your recipe..

our city water comes in at 0.0 e.c. and 60 ppm 700 scale on a guardian. do you think this recipe should be altered for r.o. or low ppm city water.?

what differences are you seeing in growth when running that recipe vs, 3-2-1?
one issue i saw, and im not sure if i would blame it on the feed, was a massive stretch phase in the jacks room vs the m.b. room. i think honestly though my m.b. room was n and cal/mag deficient and my jacks room was pretty well balanced with even input to output on the feed to runoff. i wondered if a week two k boost in the ratio would slow the stretch and make denser flowering sites. it stretched like mad.
what effect does the map vs the mkp have on the growth and why do you switch. is it to effect stretch?
also you mentioned you switch to bloom week 4. do you mean that say week 4 of flower is whe you switch from veg to bloom feed or did you mean that you veg 4 weeks and switch at flip to bloom feed?
one thing i was going to try next round in my mb room is maxgrow through week 1 flower and switch week 2 to 1/2 and 1/2 or full mb then week 3 full mb.

i run multifeed coco dtw 3x per day 1.2-1.3 max e.c.

 

[Fresh Starts]

What do you think, have you ever used seaweed extract? I was told if I wanted to triple the flavor and add twice as many trichomes at the end of harvest to add this stuff during week 2, 4, 6, and 8.

Without getting to far into a seaweed thread jack, yes seaweed extracts are great. They contain the growth hormones gibberellic acid, auxin, and cytokinin. Some people use whatever seaweed extract they can get at the hydro store (usually maxicrop) and some members are very picky- only buying seaweed extract of certain species (Ecklonia maxima) having been extracted by gentle processes (non heat or chemical) to preserve the hormones above. I encourage you to read more info on this site by kelpak

Another seaweed extract recomended by Clackamas Coot:
http://marinebioprocessing.com/?page_id=80

One thing that is great to use with seaweed extracts are humic and fulvic acids. Humic Acids are bigger particles than fulvics and are generally used in the root zone while fulvic acids are smaller particles used in foliar spraying. When combined in a 5:2 ratio -Humic:seaweed- the benefits of seaweed increase 30-50%

Some of the novelty seaweed products are hard to get. My advice would be to purchase the cheaper more accessible extract you can find and experiment. As far as applications go I tend not to use them past early flower and only apply once a week but I'm still dialing in the growth hormone/ growth regulator additions in my setup.

 

[Big JAE]

Why do all that research when I canm just ask you what your using and where to get the seaweed / kelp extract and acids you speak of? I understand what your saying and assume you've researched what is the best cheapest extract & acid to buy and where from. That's why I joined this forum, to meet like minded people that are willing to share their idea's and methods.

I just made a seed order and was going to start over totally new with a mother to make a few flats of my next cycle. Giving me some time to bleech clean, fresh paint and fresh mylar my room. Instead after finding out one of my outdoor ladies (given to me already in dirt rooted & were supposed to be one strain) has turned completely purple and looks much different & after talking to friend they came from he said "Oh yeah one of those was a grand daddy purp fem clone". So after I pull it some time in the next few days here, I'm going to take the original topped branches from the super cropped plant and re-vegetate them into some grand daddy purp clone flats.

I've done this before with a few kinds of widow strains and they always grow very fast and I've been able to re-vegetate them in as little as 3 weeks sending them to flower / finish in just 7 1/2 - 8 weeks. Never been able to get them to re-vegetate a third time. Well they might have, but they were growing super slow so I tossed them. LOL Here's a picture of this ugly ass plant.

My next cycle I'm going to use the classic Jack's hydroponic nutes with a cal nit add instead of the three part AN nutrients I usually use. Was gonna do a half AN half Jack's to see the dif but don't feel like spending more money on AN just to see. The jack's has been running good with what I've used them on after I ran out of AN three part and the plants have not skipped a beat. Do you know of any powder nutrient companies that will mix a special recipe for people? Have a recipe a couple friends out in Colorado gave me that grow commercially. They said their nutrients cost 2cents a gallon using this recipe but they buy 50lb bags. I don't need anything like that!! LOL

 

[Big JAE]

Without getting to far into a seaweed thread jack, yes seaweed extracts are great. They contain the growth hormones gibberellic acid, auxin, and cytokinin. Some people use whatever seaweed extract they can get at the hydro store (usually maxicrop) and some members are very picky- only buying seaweed extract of certain species (Ecklonia maxima) having been extracted by gentle processes (non heat or chemical) to preserve the hormones above. I encourage you to read more info on this site by kelpak

Another seaweed extract recomended by Clackamas Coot:
http://marinebioprocessing.com/?page_id=80

One thing that is great to use with seaweed extracts are humic and fulvic acids. Humic Acids are bigger particles than fulvics and are generally used in the root zone while fulvic acids are smaller particles used in foliar spraying. When combined in a 5:2 ratio -Humic:seaweed- the benefits of seaweed increase 30-50%

Some of the novelty seaweed products are hard to get. My advice would be to purchase the cheaper more accessible extract you can find and experiment. As far as applications go I tend not to use them past early flower and only apply once a week but I'm still dialing in the growth hormone/ growth regulator additions in my setup.

That seaweed extract seems like it would be good to use but any idea where you buy it or do you have to contact them? Because they are a very large supplier who I don't think sells in small amounts.

 

[ilaughlast]

Have a recipe a couple friends out in Colorado gave me that grow commercially. They said their nutrients cost 2cents a gallon using this recipe but they buy 50lb bags. I don't need anything like that!! LOL

what is the recipe?

 

[Big JAE]

what is the recipe?

I will post for you what I was given. This is a recipe for a very large amount that I was supposed to size down into actual amounts. Well I am very bad at math and ratios so maybe if it looks good to you, you could size it down. I'm just going to copy and paste it because it has two recipes. One is for veg and one is for bloom. You will also see to the left of each what order they are supposed to be mixed in. It's supposed to be followed very precisely. That's what they told me. And they grow over 100 plants at a time, no bull shit. Anyways here it is, remember this was given to me, I didn't make this up. Plus I'm not going to post all of it because it's way to long and would take up to much room I would like feedback.

This formula is basically what is exactly in any liquid A. Grow + B. Bloom 2 part feed. These amounts and numbers were taken from a chemical breakdown of the ingredients that are in a famous nutrient companies 1 gallon bottle. If you take their "Advanced" ingredient recipe and "our" recipe and grew identical strains in identical situations you would have identical plants period. A large amount of research and money paid for the break down to find out this information so believe if you want. Of course each strain is a little different and might need a little more or less of something. But this is the breakdown to what you buy in those big pretty colored labeled jugs. They even look and smell the same when put side by side.

Once all the ingredients are ready you must mix them in the correct order. lf you
change the order of the mix the nutrients will bond together and the food will
become useless. Start by filling a rubber garbage can with HOT WATER. This can be
done with a garden hose attached to any household tap. You will also need a large stir stick, approximately 4ft in length x 2 inches x 3 inches. Each ingredient should be mixed very well for 1 minute or until the solution is clear in appearance. The
ingredients are listed in sequence below.

here was a long part on stuff to make things easier like scale containers etc.

To make our formula you will need to purchase Calcium Nitrate (S0lb bag @ $3S.SS; Potash (501b bag @ $39.99) Mono Potassium Phosphate (S0lb bag @ $aS.SS1 Potassium Nitrate (101b bag @ $2s.ss; Magnesium Sulphate (50tb bag @ $39.99) and Trace Elements (101b bucket @ $39.99). The total nutrients as listed will make approx. 30,000 gallons of hydroponic food. The average cost to fill a 100 gallon reservoir with our hydroponic formula is about $2.OO.

For extra flavor and trichomes:

The Grow formula listed below will make approx 80 gallons at 700 PPM
LISTED IN THE ORDER TO MIX! example 1G = 1st, 2G = 2nd ingredient etc.

1G CaNO3 224 grams Calcium Nitrate
2G K2SO4 28 grams Potassium Sulphate
3G KNO3 86 grams Potassium Nitrate
4G KH2PO4 46 grams Mono Potassium Phosphate
5G MGSO4 132 grams Magnesium Sulphate
6G Trace 24 grams Trace Elements

The Bud formula listed below will make approx 80 gallons at 900 PPM
LISTED IN THE ORDER OF MIX!

1B CaNO3 315 grams Calcium Nitrate
2B K2SO4 128 grams Potassium Sulphate
3B KH2PO4 104 grams Mono Potassium Phosphate
4B MGSO4 213 grams Magnesium Sulphate
5B Trace 34 grams Trace Elements

Begin filling the reservoir with cold water while the formula is being mixed. Once the formula is ready, pour it from the garbage can to the reservoir and flnish filling with cold water to the desired level. Once the reservoir is full turn on the water pump and let the food run through the system for a few minutes, check the PH and adjust to 6 if
needed.

lf the reservoir is slightly larger or smaller then adjust the formula to suit your needs, example: You filled your reservoir with the Bud formula as per the directions and your at 1200PPM. Multiply the weight of the nutrients by 0.75 to get the new formula at
9OOPPM.

The recommended PPM (Parts Per Million) is 900 for Bud and 700 for Grow. Some
growers may say that 1200PPM is better because the plants are getting more food.
The truth is that 48hrs after your reservoir has been filled, the level will drop by
25o/o, the PH will also drop to a level of 5, but the PPM will increase to about 1 100.
Top up the reservoir with tap water and adjust the PH back to a level of 6 every other day. We know from experience that plants produce just as much bud with 900PPM as they do with 1200PPM.

Raw nutrients absorb humidity and will eventually bond together like cement if
not covered or stored properly. Never leave bags of nutrients open after use.

For that extra flavor only soil grown herb has:

Measure out 30ml of the NON DILLUTED sea weed extract and mix in a 2liter container of hot water, this will assist in the mixture to a large reservoir. DO NOT WASTE YOUR $ ON PRETTY LABEL JUGS, BUY PUREST EXTRACTS ONLY. Once ready simply pour into the large reservoir and turn on your water pumps for a few minutes to complete the process. Suggest that the Sea Weed extract be used in your reservoirs one time at week 1 of grow, one time at week 1 of bud, one time at week 3 of bud, and one time at week 5 of bud.

For a massive but more labor intensive taste effect refer to foliar spray dilutes.

 

[Fresh Starts]

I will post for you what I was given. This is a recipe for a very large amount that I was supposed to size down into actual amounts. Well I am very bad at math and ratios so maybe if it looks good to you, you could size it down. I'm just going to copy and paste it because it has two recipes. One is for veg and one is for bloom. You will also see to the left of each what order they are supposed to be mixed in. It's supposed to be followed very precisely. That's what they told me. And they grow over 100 plants at a time, no bull shit. Anyways here it is, remember this was given to me, I didn't make this up. Plus I'm not going to post all of it because it's way to long and would take up to much room I would like feedback.

This formula is basically what is exactly in any liquid A. Grow + B. Bloom 2 part feed. These amounts and numbers were taken from a chemical breakdown of the ingredients that are in a famous nutrient companies 1 gallon bottle. If you take their "Advanced" ingredient recipe and "our" recipe and grew identical strains in identical situations you would have identical plants period. A large amount of research and money paid for the break down to find out this information so believe if you want. Of course each strain is a little different and might need a little more or less of something. But this is the breakdown to what you buy in those big pretty colored labeled jugs. They even look and smell the same when put side by side.

Once all the ingredients are ready you must mix them in the correct order. lf you
change the order of the mix the nutrients will bond together and the food will
become useless. Start by filling a rubber garbage can with HOT WATER. This can be
done with a garden hose attached to any household tap. You will also need a large stir stick, approximately 4ft in length x 2 inches x 3 inches. Each ingredient should be mixed very well for 1 minute or until the solution is clear in appearance. The
ingredients are listed in sequence below.

here was a long part on stuff to make things easier like scale containers etc.

To make our formula you will need to purchase Calcium Nitrate (S0lb bag @ $3S.SS; Potash (501b bag @ $39.99) Mono Potassium Phosphate (S0lb bag @ $aS.SS1 Potassium Nitrate (101b bag @ $2s.ss; Magnesium Sulphate (50tb bag @ $39.99) and Trace Elements (101b bucket @ $39.99). The total nutrients as listed will make approx. 30,000 gallons of hydroponic food. The average cost to fill a 100 gallon reservoir with our hydroponic formula is about $2.OO.

For extra flavor and trichomes:

The Grow formula listed below will make approx 80 gallons at 700 PPM
LISTED IN THE ORDER TO MIX! example 1G = 1st, 2G = 2nd ingredient etc.

1G CaNO3 224 grams Calcium Nitrate
2G K2SO4 28 grams Potassium Sulphate
3G KNO3 86 grams Potassium Nitrate
4G KH2PO4 46 grams Mono Potassium Phosphate
5G MGSO4 132 grams Magnesium Sulphate
6G Trace 24 grams Trace Elements

The Bud formula listed below will make approx 80 gallons at 900 PPM
LISTED IN THE ORDER OF MIX!

1B CaNO3 315 grams Calcium Nitrate
2B K2SO4 128 grams Potassium Sulphate
3B KH2PO4 104 grams Mono Potassium Phosphate
4B MGSO4 213 grams Magnesium Sulphate
5B Trace 34 grams Trace Elements

Begin filling the reservoir with cold water while the formula is being mixed. Once the formula is ready, pour it from the garbage can to the reservoir and flnish filling with cold water to the desired level. Once the reservoir is full turn on the water pump and let the food run through the system for a few minutes, check the PH and adjust to 6 if
needed.

lf the reservoir is slightly larger or smaller then adjust the formula to suit your needs, example: You filled your reservoir with the Bud formula as per the directions and your at 1200PPM. Multiply the weight of the nutrients by 0.75 to get the new formula at
9OOPPM.

The recommended PPM (Parts Per Million) is 900 for Bud and 700 for Grow. Some
growers may say that 1200PPM is better because the plants are getting more food.
The truth is that 48hrs after your reservoir has been filled, the level will drop by
25o/o, the PH will also drop to a level of 5, but the PPM will increase to about 1 100.
Top up the reservoir with tap water and adjust the PH back to a level of 6 every other day. We know from experience that plants produce just as much bud with 900PPM as they do with 1200PPM.

Raw nutrients absorb humidity and will eventually bond together like cement if
not covered or stored properly. Never leave bags of nutrients open after use.

For that extra flavor only soil grown herb has:

Measure out 30ml of the NON DILLUTED sea weed extract and mix in a 2liter container of hot water, this will assist in the mixture to a large reservoir. DO NOT WASTE YOUR $ ON PRETTY LABEL JUGS, BUY PUREST EXTRACTS ONLY. Once ready simply pour into the large reservoir and turn on your water pumps for a few minutes to complete the process. Suggest that the Sea Weed extract be used in your reservoirs one time at week 1 of grow, one time at week 1 of bud, one time at week 3 of bud, and one time at week 5 of bud.

For a massive but more labor intensive taste effect refer to foliar spray dilutes.

The grow formula yields the following profile:
N-P-K-Ca-Mg
101-27.5-156-100-34

Roughly 3.6-1-5.6 formulation.

The bloom formula yields the following profile:
N-P-K-Ca-Mg
98-62-230-141-55

Roughly 1.5-1-3.6 formulation.

Nice post.. now who's going to try this out?

 

[Fresh Starts]

I said I would post this up so here it is:

For all of my strains I run this now, and as long as I water to runoff everything blows up.

Veg:

149:45:118:47:75:136 (N: P :K:Mg:S:Ca) <--- 128ppm NO3, 21ppm NH4

Bloom (starting week 4):

Same as above but I take out the MAP, Switch for MKP and reduce CaNO3 by 20%

114:45:148:47:75:109 <----- 7ppm NH4



This is a great raw salts formula. I am also adding organics (kelp, fishmeal, wormcastings) dry between runs.

weeks 6 and 7 I add molasses 5ml/gal.

Last week only water.


To achieve the formulas I use jacks hydro 5-12-26 @ 1.5 grams, MAP @ 0.4 grams or MKP @0.4 grams (veg or bloom), K2SO4 @ 0.3 grams , CaNO3 @ 2.85 or 2.3 grams, and epsom salt @ 1 gram.

per gallon of course.

I do use AN ph down at 1mL per gal as well. LA city tap water.

This has been in use for roughly 8 months now and I am doing very well with it. So well that I stopped tinkering.

I've tried achieving the desired profile through hydrobuddy using all of the salts listed and JPH but I can't hit the numbers on the dot. I had to recreate JPH as an addition through the program and I'm tired so I might have messed it up there. I'm within +/- 7 ppm of the target.

Can you make concentrate solutions from the above recipe in which you combined some of those salts? I.e JPH +MAP/MKP+K2S04+epsom in one concentrate solution? I'm not sure if there would be any precipitation or reactions there. I'm going to run salts through a dosatron and the less concentrate solutions the less pumps I need. Is there a specific reason to seperate the salts in concentration? @Capulator
Thanks -Fresh

 

[basement bob]

Be careful with mixing the CaNO3 first. If it's not completely mixed in it could cause precipitation. This can also occur if the rez is large and not used completely. Many commercial greenhouses utilize a separate reservoir for CaNO3, I believe it's also why blue dye is added to it.
Just my 0.02

I have a great pdf on how to mix large reservoirs to help maintain stable ppm and ph. I'll dig it up here in a minute.

Bob

 

[Capulator]

@Fresh Starts you can combine everything except the CaNO3 for your part A and your part B would be the CaNO3. I also recently added back agsil to my program and that would be my part A as a stand alone, followed by the rest of it (except CaNO3) as part B, and the CaNO3 as part C.

 

[Capulator]

@basement bob I would love to see that pdf!

 

[basement bob]

http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/nutrientsolutionmgmt.htm

@Capulator
The above is not what I was looking for, but it's good read.
I'm still looking for the pdf. I'll find it.
I'm getting discharged from the hospital today after 6 days so my mind's a mess. Here's a cool picture of the Power Picc line that runs from my bicep to my heart. I'll be glad to get this out. Haven't seen my electric nail or dogs in forever. Oh yeah, I miss my fiance too :D

I'll look this pdf up this afternoon, from my own couch!

Bob