Could I Please Get A Little Help With Deficiency

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Tbone

Tbone

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Damn tbone... friggin excellent set up.
Yeah I think we are chasing the same problems. Seems like I always see mg deficiency by the end of the cycle, maybe not a bad case but it is there. On this run I think I threw a PK booster ( liquid kook bloom and maybe a touch of dry) too early. Read about it somewhere and thought I would try it early, like ten days from flip. It did kick them into budding high gear with lots of early pistil formation, but may have led to my problems later on.
That Lucas formula that I was using for eons with success was not really doing it for me in the UC , I think the cali magic and micro combo was giving me too much N. Palmeezy, I kept getting really dark green leaves and some light clawing.
One thing I will change up is to start tapering nutes back starting at what... week six or so. Something I haven't really paid enough attention to in the past.
Also, I am certain my humidity and VPD is not where it should be. My cold , arid environment keeps me at low levels of both. Rarely above 60 ( at night) and more like 35-45 during lights on. No mold issues tho... ever! Powdery mildew... never!

I do that with booster in veg too,lol . I hand dose one treatment of my liquid booster at week 4 veg( 0-4-4) Which really isn't adding much extra p and K.
My line of nutrients chart says to start adding the liquid booster on week 3 of flower but because I use these dosers I start injecting booster about a week early . I'm guessing it takes about three days for the profile to reach the correct booster amount in the system"if that makes sense ".
I'm showing little signs of Mag deficiency now , hardly any, but since I'm going to do a water change in a few days I thought I would up the Cal Mag and see what it does.
 
Tbone

Tbone

64
18
I do that with booster in veg too,lol . I hand dose one treatment of my liquid booster at week 4 veg( 0-4-4) Which really isn't adding much extra p and K.
My line of nutrients chart says to start adding the liquid booster on week 3 of flower but because I use these dosers I start injecting booster about a week early . I'm guessing it takes about three days for the profile to reach the correct booster amount in the system"if that makes sense ".
I'm showing little signs of Mag deficiency now , hardly any, but since I'm going to do a water change in a few days I thought I would up the Cal Mag and see what it does.

I scratch the extra Cal Mag and went with Palm Eazy's advice. I put a little Epsom Salts in the system and will do a foliar with Epsom this evening. I just dont want to keep adding cal mag as I think theres plenty of calcium already. We'll see how it goes.
I might try this FulMag Palm Eezy is recomending as a foliar! I have use Fulvex mixed with seaplex a couple times, now that I think about it they are probably similar but the Fulmag specifically says it helps mag deficiency.
 
palm eezy

palm eezy

79
18
in other mediums there's a lag/disconnect between your feeding and the plants uptake. varies by each one of course. in a healthy DWC your nutrient profile is, for the most part, entirely available to the plants as-is. running simultaneously low overall PPMs + boosters, you run the risk of skewing your profile. with a dialed environment & lots of water uptake, they're gonna show problems especially with excesses. (i feel) they do require extra P/K at the different stages in flower but i really think it's a fine line.


here's what i did. downloaded cannastats, plugged in the other stuff i was using (it comes pre-loaded with GH 3part) and started running different numbers. i don't know what the ideal profile is but 4-3-3-9 cm-m-g-b works great for most strains. start to finish. so i use that as my baseline. i went thru all of my various crusty logs of my mixes that i've kept over the years and... wow. huge numbers especially P & K. for reference, FooDoo's 2.5/2.5/7.5 mix comes out to
60-43-99-41-40-56 N-P-K-Mg-S-Ca, which in a dialed environment is gonna kill it, start to finish, with most (but not all) strains. no boosters, sugars, organics, nothing else. every shorter, leafier, indica-leaning strain i've got thrives with it. my issue is that i like to run GG4, an absolutely exceptional grower in terms of stretch, well-spaced budsites, its ability to fill out the canopy on its own, etc.. and either wants lower humidity, more stripping/fan & inferior budsite removal, or more.... P??? about ready to just run other strains because they're all turning out awesome, just less yield and more canopy work. with GG4, little work is required to get a somewhat consistent & chunky overall appearance to the pack.

last run, i had a much shorter, lower yielding mostly GG crop that i used no boosters on and was lacking in the velvet-y texture & swollen calyxes only on the very tops/most well lit portions. most of the very top buds were not as swollen as the stuff that was getting less light. my thinking was deficiency over toxicity and thought more frequent nute changeouts would help keep things in check. but this still didn't help on my latest round. last crop was tiny but still got a 70% yield. unfortunately i'm in the process of trimming another underwhelming GG4 monocrop that will have good weight and good potency by local standards, but is still lacking in density & the swollen calyx factor that i had when i had vented, mostly uncontrolled climate rooms and ran 2.0+ EC. even though i kept the canopy leaf/bud temps under 80, the whole top is covered with bleached foxtails that are actually dense, sticky and dank and have the texture that i wish all of the other top bud had. great uncured smoked! the bleaching is because of short ceilings and being 1' or less from the glass. but the real oddity is how these foxtails turn out with the proper texture, smell, swollen trichome head coverage, etc...vs. all of the buds right below. just white as can be.

my point of sharing this is..a) don't necessarily just follow tips from others, to some extent you have to, but assuming you have a baseline that is working OK, don't go too far off of that. b) maybe someone has some thoughts on my issues? i ran about 1-2 p:k except for a stretch near the end where it was evened up. the more intense the lighting, the worse affected the buds seem to be. new hoods added yield but more imperfect tops. mid-light stuff is turning out the best with these overgrown crops, but lacks the density & weight that the top stuff should have. reading points to lack of P.

tbone.. i admire & envy the system but dont envy your role as being the one who has to tune that in! what are your symptoms for too much calcium?
 
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palm eezy

palm eezy

79
18
i just realized i didn't have grams per mL for the floraduo so my numbers are a little low, but the ratios should be pretty close.
 
JMcG

JMcG

517
93
I have seen my tops that are closest to the lights have the same effect. Not bleaching , just sub par bud formation compared to the mid to upper level growth. Never considered it could be a P def tho.... interesting point.
This run I am trying to keep my lights a touch further away than I usually do... maybe 30" vs 24 " on the 600 hps.
 
Tbone

Tbone

64
18
in other mediums there's a lag/disconnect between your feeding and the plants uptake. varies by each one of course. in a healthy DWC your nutrient profile is, for the most part, entirely available to the plants as-is. running simultaneously low overall PPMs + boosters, you run the risk of skewing your profile. with a dialed environment & lots of water uptake, they're gonna show problems especially with excesses. (i feel) they do require extra P/K at the different stages in flower but i really think it's a fine line.


here's what i did. downloaded cannastats, plugged in the other stuff i was using (it comes pre-loaded with GH 3part) and started running different numbers. i don't know what the ideal profile is but 4-3-3-9 cm-m-g-b works great for most strains. start to finish. so i use that as my baseline. i went thru all of my various crusty logs of my mixes that i've kept over the years and... wow. huge numbers especially P & K. for reference, FooDoo's 2.5/2.5/7.5 mix comes out to
60-43-99-41-40-56 N-P-K-Mg-S-Ca, which in a dialed environment is gonna kill it, start to finish, with most (but not all) strains. no boosters, sugars, organics, nothing else. every shorter, leafier, indica-leaning strain i've got thrives with it. my issue is that i like to run GG4, an absolutely exceptional grower in terms of stretch, well-spaced budsites, its ability to fill out the canopy on its own, etc.. and either wants lower humidity, more stripping/fan & inferior budsite removal, or more.... P??? about ready to just run other strains because they're all turning out awesome, just less yield and more canopy work. with GG4, little work is required to get a somewhat consistent & chunky overall appearance to the pack.

last run, i had a much shorter, lower yielding mostly GG crop that i used no boosters on and was lacking in the velvet-y texture & swollen calyxes only on the very tops/most well lit portions. most of the very top buds were not as swollen as the stuff that was getting less light. my thinking was deficiency over toxicity and thought more frequent nute changeouts would help keep things in check. but this still didn't help on my latest round. last crop was tiny but still got a 70% yield. unfortunately i'm in the process of trimming another underwhelming GG4 monocrop that will have good weight and good potency by local standards, but is still lacking in density & the swollen calyx factor that i had when i had vented, mostly uncontrolled climate rooms and ran 2.0+ EC. even though i kept the canopy leaf/bud temps under 80, the whole top is covered with bleached foxtails that are actually dense, sticky and dank and have the texture that i wish all of the other top bud had. great uncured smoked! the bleaching is because of short ceilings and being 1' or less from the glass. but the real oddity is how these foxtails turn out with the proper texture, smell, swollen trichome head coverage, etc...vs. all of the buds right below. just white as can be.

my point of sharing this is..a) don't necessarily just follow tips from others, to some extent you have to, but assuming you have a baseline that is working OK, don't go too far off of that. b) maybe someone has some thoughts on my issues? i ran about 1-2 p:k except for a stretch near the end where it was evened up. the more intense the lighting, the worse affected the buds seem to be. new hoods added yield but more imperfect tops. mid-light stuff is turning out the best with these overgrown crops, but lacks the density & weight that the top stuff should have. reading points to lack of P.

tbone.. i admire & envy the system but dont envy your role as being the one who has to tune that in! what are your symptoms for too much calcium?

I was just looking at the canna stats profiler thinking I might try to plug in clean grows numbers and compare them to Cultured solutions ,then instead got off that and came here to see if there were any replies. Funny ,I was just checking out Canna Stats, and here you are getting into a little detail on what I was searching for. Im going to play with that calculator a little but I may not be versed in nutrients enough to even make use of it. looks easy enough though.

Yes , i think that is real good advice as far as keeping a baseline. Im pretty close to running the Clean Grow Nutrients chart right now with the addition of there recomended cal mag supplement. Im also running Bud Factor X which doesnt add much in ppms. I did a water change on both system today and as of today very happy with how things look.
Calcium: I don't really think Im running too much Calcium , Rather I was concerned I might be giving it too much Calcium if I kept trying to fix a magnesium issue by just adding more cal mag.
The epsom salts really seemed to do the trick! I foliar sprayed it two days ago and I swear the leaves greened right up and the deficiency is all but gone. lierally in two days the plants look a nice lush green. So i appreciate you suggesting this remedy!
I ran one grow of GG#4 in one of these rooms and I didnt trellis or net it. It all ended up falling over like a wind storm hit it. But man that was some nice herb! One of my current grows strains is a cross between GG#4 and DMT kush so I am prepared to trellis this thing up .i meant to get some pics today but forgot. Ill try tomorrow though.

I really appreciate everyones help. Things are looking great! Plants look good , Roots are bright white , bud sites are forming, and I'm feeling pretty good about it. I just hope I can stay on track
 
palm eezy

palm eezy

79
18
I ran one grow of GG#4 in one of these rooms and I didnt trellis or net it. It all ended up falling over like a wind storm hit it.

yep, especially if you don't have stretch limiting factors, the stuff will never support itself. domino effect will flatten the whole canopy in a day. the irony is, i was still turning out fire GG crops that were falling over, retrofitting a string net several runs in a row. i put in another trellis level to support the tops and they foxtailed & did terrible up high, vs. the fallen over crops that never got great density but maintained proper swollen appearance and texture. i've tried drawing conclusions from this but just kept going in circles.

before sealed rooms (& RO & low EC & high humidity & co2) I had GG right up to the hood glass and those buds were still prime. the plants had way less bud sites.

after racking my brain & going over everything and anything possible, i found that my pH meter in the one room was reading .3 high vs reference solution. my average displayed pH on the last run was probably 5.7 with not a lot of swing, so really running below 5.5 most of the time. low pH & high K locking out/limiting uptake of calcium, which GG supposedly loves. that's my theory, not sure if it's half-baked enough though.

the main reason i suggested using cannastats is so that you can have a better understanding of exactly what you are putting in there & how boosters affect & possibly skew the profile. calculating your profile/mixture is like being able to read the label on some packaged/prepared food you are eating. might be something scary!
 
JMcG

JMcG

517
93
PE... what type of system are you running?
Btw, I lost faith in my old Hanna ph pen awhile back after it went way off and I got tired of calibrating it every time. Now I use Sunlights litmus paper version... easy and consistent. Perhaps not as precise as a " working " pen but plenty close to keep it where you want it. I remember reading that ph pens are not very accurate anyway.
Man, I feel really lame when you start trying to explain nutrient profiles to me like you did so well above... can't seem to wrap my head around the calculations. I am sure it is simple enough but I guess I need to do some reading. I'll look at the cannastats, but are there other threads that can give me a starting point?
I need edumacation!
 
Tbone

Tbone

64
18
I made an attempt at using this Canna Stats calculator. If I did it right ,for week 3 of bloom this is what I came up with.
for PPMs for Clean Grows Nutes N-77, P-64, K-155, Mg- 20, S-35, Ca- 62 This includes Clean grows Bloom A, B, and liquid booster. Looks pretty similar to the ppms palm eezy posted of Foo Doos mix. The mix changes week to week as the recipe calls for more liquid booster and less A and B as weeks go on. When I get time Ill run this calculator for evey week in bloom and try to compare it to GH nutes.
To confirm that I did this right:
What I did was run the calculator for each nutrient, put in the ml per gal for that week, printed a sheet for a , b , and booster , and added the sum of a, b , and boost together. If this makes sense, did I do it right?
 
DR.GT

DR.GT

83
18
Tbone , what was the dose g/gallon of Epsom u added to system and how much did u foliar spray with? Does anyone have a recommendation of how often it should be used?
 
palm eezy

palm eezy

79
18
i use rdwcs, modeled somewhat like the UC setups but i don't have a 'reservoir' like in the UC systems. i call it my rez but you guys call them an 'epi'. also, my pump doesn't pump thru my chiller, 1/2hp arctica chiller cools a master cooling reservoir (chest freezer) which has little pumps for the individual circuits. they pump the 40-46f water thru cupronickel coils in each 'epi'. diy'd over the top, everything. i have 2 small identical 3k flower rooms with 8 13 gal EZ Stor's in each. 20 total sites linked in veg, 2 20 gal tubs with 5 holes in each for clones and 2 rows of 5-5 gallon squares that i used to use for flower. for years i veg'd with them all grown together in the 5 site, 20 gallons linked together and have finally upgraded to individual pods and good access/lighting for 10 plants getting ready for flower. transplanting with any real size is less than ideal, so i hope to develop more space eventually and have excess/slack capacity with rooms & systems for flower to make it easier to keep up with demand, i.e. cycle times, how fast you trim/clean/replant etc etc.. legal, in med state with an unclear future sadly.

dont burn braincells over using cannastats if you don't feel like it. for me, cannastats is most useful retroactively. here's what i did & here's what i got. but in the beginning it was to give myself the understanding, to have the... quantitative assurance that boosters & high PPMs etc etc are not the way to go. if you've got good buds as is, and you're dealing with whole big rooms of plants all linked together with large investments, expenses & expectations, don't rock the boat too much. you don't have individual plants to experiment with like most growers, where you'd be able to try all sorts of minor variations in one run and come to conclusions quickly for the next, if you wanted. when you've only got one shot each time & it affects so much, i eventually got to the point where i needed a way to look at the numbers.

i try to have harvests staggered and i'm about 42 days since flip in the other. usually run 67-70 days, just took the last run 75. hadn't considered pH as an issue (this room was .1 below reference and has historically outperformed the other room.) and was running slightly lower florabloom. they always look great through about 35 days, the peak pistol formation period. fairly certain that the pH swing is more important in sterile vs live. hearsay but seems to make sense.
 
palm eezy

palm eezy

79
18
t-bone, on mine what i do is 1st go under the 'guaranteed analysis' tab and fill in all the stuff. then go under 'solution mix' tab and it will display it all for you so you don't have to manually add it up.

the other variable is the weight of the solution. weigh 100ml and take 1/100th of that weight to determine grams per ml. that might affect your #s some.

is that profile at their recommended full strength?

main reason i'm still using GH is availability. i order 2.5s and probably 6s now, but i can always get anything i need at my small local shops if i don't order in time.

btw, if you don't have ultrasonic foggers and have RO-on-demand, you can build very effective 10-head unit for under 200. for reference, 10 heads should be enough to keep up 2+ tons of continuous AC with the plants barely transpiring.
 
palm eezy

palm eezy

79
18
According to the premix calculator from cannastats 1 gram of epsom to one gallon of water - the volme of water that gram of salt displaces gives you 25.5ppm mg and 33.7ppm sulfur.

DR.GT., i mainly use it later in flower trying to supplement Mg & S without using more bloom component. how much you should use is hard to answer, start with a little. i.e., 1g per 10-20 gal. but really it depends on what your overall EC is and what your profile looks like. i shake it up in a gatorade bottle after i weigh it out to help dissolve it some before dumping it in.

what line of nutes are you using?

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/epsom-salt.67212/
 
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Tbone

Tbone

64
18
Tbone , what was the dose g/gallon of Epsom u added to system and how much did u foliar spray with? Does anyone have a recommendation of how often it should be used?

1 tsp. per gallon and a couple drops of coco wet. Sprayed with lights out under and on top of the leaves. I think its recomended to spray once a week.
 
Tbone

Tbone

64
18
t-bone, on mine what i do is 1st go under the 'guaranteed analysis' tab and fill in all the stuff. then go under 'solution mix' tab and it will display it all for you so you don't have to manually add it up.

the other variable is the weight of the solution. weigh 100ml and take 1/100th of that weight to determine grams per ml. that might affect your #s some.

is that profile at their recommended full strength?

main reason i'm still using GH is availability. i order 2.5s and probably 6s now, but i can always get anything i need at my small local shops if i don't order in time.

btw, if you don't have ultrasonic foggers and have RO-on-demand, you can build very effective 10-head unit for under 200. for reference, 10 heads should be enough to keep up 2+ tons of continuous AC with the plants barely transpiring.

I dont see a "solutions " tab. Am I using a different calculator?
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=canna+stats&*
 
JMcG

JMcG

517
93
IMG 1255
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Can I get some opinions on what is happening with these leaves please?
This is right about the point where I usually start chasing my tail a bit. Deficiency or toxicity?
All three are off similar strains in one of my four pod UC. All are lower to mid level on the plants. Plants are into week three of bloom. I did change nutes ten days ago from GH Lucas to GH floroduo ( I know, not much of a change ). Slowly upping the ppms to find what they want and I am getting to about 350 right now , seems like they still want more because the ppm still drops about 30 parts overnight. All this tells me I am still a bit lean and I think that is what I see in these leaves but I have blown it beforeat this point and chased burn and canoeing issues for the rest of the cycle.
What do you folks see?
Btw... I scoured the backside with a loupe and saw no evidence of pests. I hit them with Spinosad twice before they move out of the veg room!
 
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