Dr. Bruce Bugbee and light leaks discussion

[IamN2pot]

In another thread that was originally a question about the number of fingers in a leaf and overall bud size, sorry @PhoenixFlower, the subject has drifted into light leaks and hermaphrodites where one of our respected members stated:

You're comparing indoor light to moon lighting and that's apples and oranges. Moon light is reflective and the plants don't see it...Check out Dr.B.Bugby on light leaks...if you can see print in a book in the grow room with lights out it'll cause problems. Small led indicator lights on equipment can be so bright it lights up enough to see all the plants and read print in the dark. Plants need very little light to get confused and not know what direction to go, some will hermi some will reveg...up to you I don't like seeds in my buds

So I went to look up this Dr. Bugbee, because what common sense I have tells me that a statement like " Moon light is reflective and the plants don't see it...Check out Dr.B.Bugby on light leaks." is flat wrong and caught my attention. @PipeCarver , this is what I found on youtube and it doesn't seem to cover moonlight reflectivity and plants here on the Dr's channel. Please link to that information. I don't see anything that looks like it deals with light leaks and reflective light there (so maybe I'm a bit blind... or looking in the wrong corner). If that information is available, I would certainly like to hear him discuse it.

Another member, @N1ghtL1ght posted an informitive light graft to that thread and if you want to repost into this thread, feel free. I am hopeful we can weed out the Bro science and get down to some serious science. If I may get technical with PipeCarver, as I understand it, everything you see is reflected light.
I hope to get a picture of an outdoor grow here in Pueblo on a busy street with street lights and their plants do just fine. So I'll pose the question, is it having any low light source or can low light be acceptable, as long as it's consistant and not random??? Streetlights or moonlight aren't random, but as regular as the sunrise/set, so????

...and yes, I have my personal beliefs and views on the subject, but most of it is from reading and not actual, personal experiance and so if I can't back it up with real, factual data, I'll just keep it as my personal view and to myself.
Now, can we solve this problem once and for all, ........ again! and let's not forget all the other stress factors that influence hermaphrodites, heat, cold, insects, WPM, to humid, to dry, pH, nute deficiency and excess, over watering, under watering, water to cold or warm, and on and on........ and yes, some varieties are more geneticly prone to hermmy on us, Durban Poison being a classic example of genetic predisposition to herrmy.
N2

 

[PipeCarver]

In another thread that was originally a question about the number of fingers in a leaf and overall bud size, sorry @PhoenixFlower, the subject has drifted into light leaks and hermaphrodites where one of our respected members stated:


So I went to look up this Dr. Bugbee, because what common sense I have tells me that a statement like " Moon light is reflective and the plants don't see it...Check out Dr.B.Bugby on light leaks." is flat wrong and caught my attention. @PipeCarver , this is what I found on youtube and it doesn't seem to cover moonlight reflectivity and plants here on the Dr's channel. Please link to that information. I don't see anything that looks like it deals with light leaks and reflective light there (so maybe I'm a bit blind... or looking in the wrong corner). If that information is available, I would certainly like to hear him discuse it.

Another member, @N1ghtL1ght posted an informitive light graft to that thread and if you want to repost into this thread, feel free. I am hopeful we can weed out the Bro science and get down to some serious science. If I may get technical with PipeCarver, as I understand it, everything you see is reflected light.
I hope to get a picture of an outdoor grow here in Pueblo on a busy street with street lights and their plants do just fine. So I'll pose the question, is it having any low light source or can low light be acceptable, as long as it's consistant and not random??? Streetlights or moonlight aren't random, but as regular as the sunrise/set, so????

...and yes, I have my personal beliefs and views on the subject, but most of it is from reading and not actual, personal experiance and so if I can't back it up with real, factual data, I'll just keep it as my personal view and to myself.
Now, can we solve this problem once and for all, ........ again! and let's not forget all the other stress factors that influence hermaphrodites, heat, cold, insects, WPM, to humid, to dry, pH, nute deficiency and excess, over watering, under watering, water to cold or warm, and on and on........ and yes, some varieties are more geneticly prone to hermmy on us, Durban Poison being a classic example of genetic predisposition to herrmy.
N2

I tell you what, you plant some seeds grow them for 6 weeks then flip to 12/12 and leave a small light on in the room 24/7, maybe add 2 just for fun, I have 2 seeds just cracked today, I'll keep them in the dark through their 12/12 period and we can compare at harvest timer just for giggles.

I have no history with the seeds I've cracked so I've no advantage with these strains.. If you think light leaks don't matter put it to the test. I've been there done that, I don't see any point in ruining another crop because some new guy post tid bits that light leaks don't matter.

I'm old and I mix my source info up sometimes But Dr,B.B has a video either on his own or in an interview talking about how dark is dark or how dark does it have to be and his conclusion was if you can read print in a book its not dark enough & it doesn't take long at that light level to fk up the grow, They react very fast to sleep disruptions.

The Reflective light comment was from a question I posed here 4 years ago regarding the same thing

 

[Buzzzz]

In another thread that was originally a question about the number of fingers in a leaf and overall bud size, sorry @PhoenixFlower, the subject has drifted into light leaks and hermaphrodites where one of our respected members stated:


So I went to look up this Dr. Bugbee, because what common sense I have tells me that a statement like " Moon light is reflective and the plants don't see it...Check out Dr.B.Bugby on light leaks." is flat wrong and caught my attention. @PipeCarver , this is what I found on youtube and it doesn't seem to cover moonlight reflectivity and plants here on the Dr's channel. Please link to that information. I don't see anything that looks like it deals with light leaks and reflective light there (so maybe I'm a bit blind... or looking in the wrong corner). If that information is available, I would certainly like to hear him discuse it.

Another member, @N1ghtL1ght posted an informitive light graft to that thread and if you want to repost into this thread, feel free. I am hopeful we can weed out the Bro science and get down to some serious science. If I may get technical with PipeCarver, as I understand it, everything you see is reflected light.
I hope to get a picture of an outdoor grow here in Pueblo on a busy street with street lights and their plants do just fine. So I'll pose the question, is it having any low light source or can low light be acceptable, as long as it's consistant and not random??? Streetlights or moonlight aren't random, but as regular as the sunrise/set, so????

...and yes, I have my personal beliefs and views on the subject, but most of it is from reading and not actual, personal experiance and so if I can't back it up with real, factual data, I'll just keep it as my personal view and to myself.
Now, can we solve this problem once and for all, ........ again! and let's not forget all the other stress factors that influence hermaphrodites, heat, cold, insects, WPM, to humid, to dry, pH, nute deficiency and excess, over watering, under watering, water to cold or warm, and on and on........ and yes, some varieties are more geneticly prone to hermmy on us, Durban Poison being a classic example of genetic predisposition to herrmy.
N2

There are many factors that cause plants to mature and go into ripening stage and light cycle is only one,although a big one,especially indoors which creates confusion.. Could we say the streetlight is just something that has been there and the plants become accustomed to it like a yard light? .The moon has a dramatic effect on every living thing on the planet as well as the environment. Old school farmers always plant on the wax and harvest on the wane.The full moon would at best slow maturing an un-noticible fraction during that time,the moon certainly influences tides and weather so that may influence more than light . Sometimes these experts put it in human terms but these are plants,they do it with animals as well. It is obvioulsy acceptable to have light pollution in some cases,my grow has a yard light nor far away,every morning I turn on my driveway lights and kitchen lights while it is dark outside and i can see my plants from my window by the lighting, and I have over a dozen led lights on my fence but these have been part of the plants life since birth and obviously have no more effect than the anything else because I'm not getting hermies and the plants are healthy and ripen. I have even planted clones from indoor and transplanted them outdoor in mid july and they didn't hermie. Perhaps if you introduced light pollution or scattered cycles later on it may have an effect.

 

[IamN2pot]

I tell you what, you plant some seeds grow them for 6 weeks then flip to 12/12 and leave a small light on in the room 24/7, maybe add 2 just for fun, I have 2 seeds just cracked today, I'll keep them in the dark through their 12/12 period and we can compare at harvest timer just for giggles.

I have no history with the seeds I've cracked so I've no advantage with these strains.. If you think light leaks don't matter put it to the test. I've been there done that, I don't see any point in ruining another crop because some new guy post tid bits that light leaks don't matter.

I'm old and I mix my source info up sometimes But Dr,B.B has a video either on his own or in an interview talking about how dark is dark or how dark does it have to be and his conclusion was if you can read print in a book its not dark enough & it doesn't take long at that light level to fk up the grow, They react very fast to sleep disruptions.

The Reflective light comment was from a question I posed here 4 years ago regarding the same thing

I appreciate your offer to a dual, dualing plant grows, but I'll respectfully decline, and if I've offended you, I appoligize. I am still very intrested in seeing a link from you or anyone else who has seen or read Dr D's information, so that I can read it for myself, that's all. I did a quick google search on the Dr. and he is certainly doing legit cannabis research.
Yes sir, you have thousands of post and I only have a few. Your signature shows you won a Solo cup challenge in 2019 and that is VERY commentable. Congradulations! I do take some exception to your assumption that I'm a new guy that needs to test if light stress during bloom can cause hermaphroditing. It can, I agree, and I'm over 65, been growing now for a half century and I also have memory issues with what I read that is documented research and what I remember as Bro science. That's one of the reasons for this thread. Does that mean I have it all figured out? ROFL!!!! So much has changed since I was doing SOG in Amsterdam in the mid '90's. But back to light leaks. So if the 12 hour dark period has any light interuption inside a tent, it may cause enough stress to cause hermies,? I agree. So why doesn't the streetlight over an outside grow do the same?
I'm asking a logical question, and from your post about Dr.D. you seem to be on to something. Show me the data/link, please!

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

I appreciate your offer to a dual, dualing plant grows, but I'll respectfully decline, and if I've offended you, I appoligize. I am still very intrested in seeing a link from you or anyone else who has seen or read Dr D's information, so that I can read it for myself, that's all. I did a quick google search on the Dr. and he is certainly doing legit cannabis research.
Yes sir, you have thousands of post and I only have a few. Your signature shows you won a Solo cup challenge in 2019 and that is VERY commentable. Congradulations! I do take some exception to your assumption that I'm a new guy that needs to test if light stress during bloom can cause hermaphroditing. It can, I agree, and I'm over 65, been growing now for a half century and I also have memory issues with what I read that is documented research and what I remember as Bro science. That's one of the reasons for this thread. Does that mean I have it all figured out? ROFL!!!! So much has changed since I was doing SOG in Amsterdam in the mid '90's. But back to light leaks. So if the 12 hour dark period has any light interuption inside a tent, it may cause enough stress to cause hermies,? I agree. So why doesn't the streetlight over an outside grow do the same?
I'm asking a logical question, and from your post about Dr.D. you seem to be on to something. Show me the data/link, please!

Streetlight does affect plants, and in a negative way

Artificial light however has a far stronger depreciation by distance so sometimes it doesn't matter

To affect Cannabis the fluence needs to be at least 1umol/m^2/s

 

[IamN2pot]

There are many factors that cause plants to mature and go into ripening stage and light cycle is only one,although a big one,especially indoors which creates confusion.. Could we say the streetlight is just something that has been there and the plants become accustomed to it like a yard light? .The moon has a dramatic effect on every living thing on the planet as well as the environment. Old school farmers always plant on the wax and harvest on the wane.The full moon would at best slow maturing an un-noticible fraction during that time,the moon certainly influences tides and weather so that may influence more than light . Sometimes these experts put it in human terms but these are plants,they do it with animals as well. It is obvioulsy acceptable to have light pollution in some cases,my grow has a yard light nor far away,every morning I turn on my driveway lights and kitchen lights while it is dark outside and i can see my plants from my window by the lighting, and I have over a dozen led lights on my fence but these have been part of the plants life since birth and obviously have no more effect than the anything else because I'm not getting hermies and the plants are healthy and ripen. I have even planted clones from indoor and transplanted them outdoor in mid july and they didn't hermie. Perhaps if you introduced light pollution or scattered cycles later on it may have an effect.

My question exactly! How come? and your comment about the light polution and scattered (random) cycles is also a question of mine. I'm also very curious about the Dr D's suggestion that if you can read print, it's to much light. A few years ago, we lived deep in middle Tenn off grid and dark was dark, until there was a clear night with a full moon. My point is that I could read a newspaper inside the greenhouse on a moon lit night and there were serious 'moon shadows'.
If there is a herming problem, the first and easiest thing to check for is a light problem. The problem seems to be that not all light leaks cause hermies.

LOL, N1ghtL1ght just posted with actual light levels. Thanks! Now I feel I'm getting some understanding on how much light causes hmmm, 'undue' stress.

 

[IamN2pot]

1umol/m^2/s

That is one tiny bit of light. Did that chart you posted show what moonlight is in umol? or did I miss the point already?

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

That is one tiny bit of light. Did that chart you posted show what moonlight is in umol? or did I miss the point already?

No this info ("1umol/m^2/s") is the nocturnal sensitivity Cannabis shows individually for a species. This is out from a Bugbee video - he and his collegues have done research on this, incl. Cannabis. They did correct some older research in that regard, and while Cannabis is still more sensitive as previously thought, it's still not enough, albeit close, to moonlight.

Moonlight is farred-enriched, that is, more 730nm than 660nm. If you look at that moon SPD and compare to the weight of the Phytochrom Red & FarRed absorption you may get the idea that it'll trigger a "sleep" reaction and not wake the plant up. Even when these photons are captured & registered.

Some plants can be shown to react positive to moonlight, some flower only for 1 night at 1 fullmoon during the whole year.

 

[PhoenixFlower]

In another thread that was originally a question about the number of fingers in a leaf and overall bud size, sorry @PhoenixFlower, the subject has drifted into light leaks and hermaphrodites where one of our respected members stated:


So I went to look up this Dr. Bugbee, because what common sense I have tells me that a statement like " Moon light is reflective and the plants don't see it...Check out Dr.B.Bugby on light leaks." is flat wrong and caught my attention. @PipeCarver , this is what I found on youtube and it doesn't seem to cover moonlight reflectivity and plants here on the Dr's channel. Please link to that information. I don't see anything that looks like it deals with light leaks and reflective light there (so maybe I'm a bit blind... or looking in the wrong corner). If that information is available, I would certainly like to hear him discuse it.

Another member, @N1ghtL1ght posted an informitive light graft to that thread and if you want to repost into this thread, feel free. I am hopeful we can weed out the Bro science and get down to some serious science. If I may get technical with PipeCarver, as I understand it, everything you see is reflected light.
I hope to get a picture of an outdoor grow here in Pueblo on a busy street with street lights and their plants do just fine. So I'll pose the question, is it having any low light source or can low light be acceptable, as long as it's consistant and not random??? Streetlights or moonlight aren't random, but as regular as the sunrise/set, so????

...and yes, I have my personal beliefs and views on the subject, but most of it is from reading and not actual, personal experiance and so if I can't back it up with real, factual data, I'll just keep it as my personal view and to myself.
Now, can we solve this problem once and for all, ........ again! and let's not forget all the other stress factors that influence hermaphrodites, heat, cold, insects, WPM, to humid, to dry, pH, nute deficiency and excess, over watering, under watering, water to cold or warm, and on and on........ and yes, some varieties are more geneticly prone to hermmy on us, Durban Poison being a classic example of genetic predisposition to herrmy.
N2

Hey no worries dood! This is good info for anyone who wants to take the time to read it. We're making magic happen here, cannabis SCIENCE 101.

Tbf tho, I'm not expecting the light nor the soil that I'm using to produce the top shelf bud, it's a Mars Hydro without UVA and I'm using Walmart dirt. With Walmart nutrients.

That said, I'm not suing blurples AND I bet my stuff will still be better than what the govt. shill dispensary will try to poison you with.

 

[Lockebox]

I've got three plants in my backyard, one I just harvested yesterday. They've been growing under a street light their entire life and it didn't seem to affect them any, unless I'm just not seeing it

Here's how it looks at night (I had phone flash on too to help see plants)

 

[SchwiftyGrower]

I can’t discuss sciences I don’t know, my rule of thumb has always bring a book and if I can read the text, it’s too bright. That has been my go to during my grows

This is in my greenhouse and my girl was in there for a few weeks with this amount of light leak and had 0 issues

 

[N1ghtL1ght]

https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/light-pollution.pdf

Linda Chalker-Scott | Washington State University

Horticultural Myths Looking for the newest myth-information? Check out our blog The Garden Professors. You’ll find science-based information from four horticultural professors from around the country. Fertilizers The Myth of Beneficial Bone Meal (pdf) The Myth of Vitamin Shots (pdf) The Myth of...

puyallup.wsu.edu

 

[PipeCarver]

I appreciate your offer to a dual, dualing plant grows, but I'll respectfully decline, and if I've offended you, I appoligize. I am still very intrested in seeing a link from you or anyone else who has seen or read Dr D's information, so that I can read it for myself, that's all. I did a quick google search on the Dr. and he is certainly doing legit cannabis research.
Yes sir, you have thousands of post and I only have a few. Your signature shows you won a Solo cup challenge in 2019 and that is VERY commentable. Congradulations! I do take some exception to your assumption that I'm a new guy that needs to test if light stress during bloom can cause hermaphroditing. It can, I agree, and I'm over 65, been growing now for a half century and I also have memory issues with what I read that is documented research and what I remember as Bro science. That's one of the reasons for this thread. Does that mean I have it all figured out? ROFL!!!! So much has changed since I was doing SOG in Amsterdam in the mid '90's. But back to light leaks. So if the 12 hour dark period has any light interuption inside a tent, it may cause enough stress to cause hermies,? I agree. So why doesn't the streetlight over an outside grow do the same?
I'm asking a logical question, and from your post about Dr.D. you seem to be on to something. Show me the data/link, please!

a quick search on YT looking for Dr.Bruce Bugby Dark period...that was easy....!

 

[PhoenixFlower]

Just a question for anyone reading. In regards to hermie stressing, would an infrrquent light schedule cause hermie'ing? Will a cannabis plant ONLY begin to flower after having a period of uninterrupted darkness consisting of 12 hours? Or are there other ways to send it into floweR?

 

[PipeCarver]

a quick search on YT looking for Dr.Bruce Bugby Dark period...that was easy....!

a quick search on YT looking for Dr.Bruce Bugby Dark period...that was easy....!

 

[SchwiftyGrower]

Just a question for anyone reading. In regards to hermie stressing, would an infrrquent light schedule cause hermie'ing? Will a cannabis plant ONLY begin to flower after having a period of uninterrupted darkness consisting of 12 hours? Or are there other ways to send it into floweR?

If you have an inconsistent light schedule you will cause stress. But yes all the plants need is 12/12 in darkness. Really you can do 13/11 10/14 could even flower but I do 13/11 to start and switch to 12/12 a month into flower

Example: You have your plants under 12/12 for a week or two and all of a sudden you want to change the time your timers go on and off. So instead of the lights going off at 9PM you want them to now go on at 9PM, you will stress the hell out of your plant.

If you’re growing autoflowers, those will need 18/6 or 24-7 light. Doing 12/12 will just hurt your yields. But I’ve never grown autos and haven’t heard the best results for new growers.

 

[PhoenixFlower]

If you have an inconsistent light schedule you will cause stress.

Example: You have your plants under 12/12 for a week or two and all of a sudden you want to change the time your timers go on and off. So instead of the lights going off at 9PM you want them to now go on at 9PM, you will stress the hell out of your plant.

If you’re growing autoflowers, those will need 18/6 or 24-7 light. Doing 12/12 will just hurt your yields. But I’ve never grown autos and haven’t heard the best results for new growers.

If it was for one day though. My light timer came on all of a sudden for SOME REASON at midnight after having been off for four hours prior at 8pm and the transpiration smell I usually smell when the light is off smells kind of... off. Idk, it's weird smelling.

Light timer was off at 8pm, then on at 12am and I didn't realize it turned on until sometime after 3am. Should I worry about anything?

 

[SchwiftyGrower]

If it was for one day though. My light timer came on all of a sudden for SOME REASON at midnight after having been off for four hours prior at 8pm and the transpiration smell I usually smell when the light is off smells kind of... off. Idk, it's weird smelling.

Light timer was off at 8pm, then on at 12am and I didn't realize it turned on until sometime after 3am. Should I worry about anything?

I can’t tell the future, but that will shock the hell out of your plant of any uninterrupted darkness, especially with your grow lights. 3 hours is a pretty good amount of time and I’m sure some shock set in. I’d keep a close eye

 

[PhoenixFlower]

I can’t tell the future, but that will shock the hell out of your plant of any uninterrupted darkness, especially with your grow lights. 3 hours is a pretty good amount of time and I’m sure some shock set in. I’d keep a close eye

I had not yet flipped to the 12-12 schedule though, it was SUPPOSED to be last night but like I said, stupid timer decided on something else. Prior to the 'incident' that occurred less than 12 hours ago the plants were on a 18-6 schedule.

Would that have still shocked them?

 

[SchwiftyGrower]

Sure you’ll be fine, just get your timers and light schedules dialed in before you commit the 12/12 change