Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

[Ricksauce]

I and many other members on the farm have been searching for a thread on this to no avail. Hopefully this thread helps us figure out what, exactly, this dudding syndrome is.


So when I clone off of a mother plant I have a few genetics that will throw "duds". dud plants grow regular until some point in the first two months when they will suddenly stop normal growth, throw out tiny leaves with lots (7-9) of blades, lots of nodes, and usually will throw large mature pistils at the nodes. Trying to bend the branches usually will break the branch off, and over time the plant's healthy leaves will turn necrotic and begin twisting/dying.

Plants that dud out never produce a decent yield and almost always have a sub-par smell (if any) and very few trichomes. They also smoke like shit.

I'll dig through for some pictures but it's strangely difficult to photograph, even next to a comparison plant.

Any ideas as to what we're seeing? I'm looking near and far for a lab that can do testing for various viruses, the top of the list are Barley Yellow Dwarf Virus (transmitted by aphids) and Fusarium, although these syptoms don't match the syptoms of fusarium I've heard reports from commercial growers of duds testing positive.

Another possibility is a carbon drain on the plant due to an overabundance of nutrient-mobilizing fungi, @DowNwithDirT was looking into this and hopefully can swing in to shed some light (he's been busy winning cups and popping beans so we'll see)

Even still, it could be caused by some sort of change in the media when soilless media is overwatered (oxygen deprivation : overfertilization?) since this problem seems to be mostly in soilless mixes.


let's go, what you got to add?!

This post has been edited to add the following:

Northern California has this problem pretty bad. I've found a correlation between accumulations of druse crystals of calcium oxalate to be present in high concentrations in the xylem of "infected" tissues. Fungal results are negative for the obvious majors. The problem first presented 3 years ago, with the arrival of GSC in Humboldt. GG4 is particularly susceptible, as is OG, but anything can get it. Proximity doesn't seem to be an issue. It's selective in it's target but stressed or weak individuals are almost certain victims.

It seems to over-winter.

Not broadmites but often mistaken for them.

Cull and a reset didn't solve for me. It comes back given enough time. Clones from "infected" mothers are 100% in transmission.

Anybody ever cure one?

 

[GrowGod]

I'm pretty pissed about duds right now, dud free for years and recieved cuts from a friend and they were all dudded except for a couple. So I have culled them all but now I see a few of my original strains are dudding! Including ghost og Chemdog #4 indiana bubblegum. I have back ups of all , no broad mitesor hemp russets, don't accept clones even from people you thought were legit. Seems when folks make a little cash they think it's ok not to take care of there plants anymore let alone cull the God damn duds

 

[Ricksauce]

Hey guys, I am the one that growerforlife was talking about. I have had many encounters with the dreaded dud plant. I have been dealing with weird random issues for over three years. Many different strains many different symptoms. After much frustration and loss I finally went to a lab for testing. The results, positive for TMV. I have seen so many different symptoms over the years, and I believe the dud is another one of theses symptoms. I would take clones off of what I thought at the time were healthy moms, and out of 100 or so I would get Maybe three or four duds. And if I took clones off duds it would always produce dud clones. The virus will actually change the RNA and DNA of the plant. I believe the duds are just a result of that, over time they just change enough that it screws up the whole plant. There are more and more people finally starting to pay attention to this, so hopefully over time more legit info will come out.

This seems plausible. It's cumulative. Whatever it is, it reaches a critical mass and the plant is done for. Clones always get it.

 

[Seamaiden]

I've found a correlation between accumulations of druse crystals of calcium oxalate to be present in high concentrations in the xylem of "infected" tissues.

The same calcium oxalate my kidneys are full of?

 

[Ricksauce]

The same calcium oxalate my kidneys are full of?

Chemically identical

 

[sixstring]

I'm pretty pissed about duds right now, dud free for years and recieved cuts from a friend and they were all dudded except for a couple. So I have culled them all but now I see a few of my original strains are dudding! Including ghost og Chemdog #4 indiana bubblegum. I have back ups of all , no broad mitesor hemp russets, don't accept clones even from people you thought were legit. Seems when folks make a little cash they think it's ok not to take care of there plants anymore let alone cull the God damn duds

If you read through the whole thread it does appear most of these dud issues are from growers who either share cuts or have ran elite cuts at one time.i dont do it and i have ran through my share of seeds and never had a dud and i smoke like a chimney in both my rooms and work outdoors.i dont even change cloths before i tend my plants,unless maybe i ran a weedwhip and have stuff all over the bottom of my pan t s lol.
I really think this is genetic and from passing cuts.and possible its passed on through the seeds of dud moms.
As for tmv i guess i been lucky cause I have been taking my own cuts for years and never wash my hands and use some pretty "crusty" scissors to take them sometimes lol.
I guess i woukd say if you suspect a dud in your garden get rid of that shit quick as you can.

 

[Ricksauce]

I keep moms in a 50/50 ffof and coco mix...i see it on the moms, the ones in soil usually only have one or two lower branches dud out, anything in coco duds out 100% when it does it.

Found a lab that will do testing. Going to test for the following:

Pythium
TMV
BYDV (which I believe we are seeing - transmitted only by aphids, which are the only pest I have. Couldn't have been BM contamination since I've never had them and isn't pythium because even if the plant is runted the roots can looks absolutely amazing. Hoping to get a pic today showing that. Plus any runted plants automatically become aphid bait)

Also testing for a few systemic strains of fungi to see if anything in the amendments (humisoil, caps bennies, EWC) could be causing negative effects from over-application.



this thread really blew up sorry I haven't been participating as much as I would like. Now that we've got some diagnoses down...has anyone been able to bring plants out of this?

I've had the duds tested for fungi and come back negative. Positive for TMV. I don't know if TMV is the virus that causes runts but it appears viral. The xylem of infected tissue is usually thoroughly clogged with crystals of calcium oxalate (kidney stones). This impairment seems to cause the dwarf/runt syndrome. Here's a picture of calcium oxalate druse in infected tissue:

 

[We Solidarity]

I've had the duds tested for fungi and come back negative. Positive for TMV. I don't know if TMV is the virus that causes runts but it appears viral. The xylem of infected tissue is usually thoroughly clogged with crystals of calcium oxalate (kidney stones). This impairment seems to cause the dwarf/runt syndrome. Here's a picture of calcium oxalate druse in infected tissue: View attachment 556172

Thats crazy looking I've never seen that under a scope with probably a dozen dudded samples from different gardens

 

[Ricksauce]

Thats crazy looking I've never seen that under a scope with probably a dozen dudded samples from different gardens

The wide shot is at 1000x, cross section of stem at an obvious blockage. No stain. The closer shot is 1500x. I chased fungi for 2-3 years on this one. I thought these were spores. Friend of mine stumbled across CAC2O4. We thought maybe CA toxicity, but that doesn't explain the infection rate. Toxicity wouldn't target a random 1-75% and leave the rest. Has to be pathogenic.

I've found it in maybe 25 samples, all clones from major strains, e.g. OG, SD, GSC, GG4. Only sample in which I've found no CAC2O4 druse presence was from seed in an isolated room. My working theory today is that this is a virus that causes the disease we're calling DUDS. I first encountered it for sure in 2011, but I see evidence as far back as 2008. It affects all mediums, it's not root borne. I think it over-winters, which might suggest you can control it thermally. I'm testing that now.

I think the virus acts in some way to cause the buildup of CAC2O4 druse, resulting in the blockage of xylem tissue and prohibits the plant from moving nutrients up or down. The xylem road block results in buildups of toxins and deficiencies of vital nutrients. It tends to move up, not down. Root tissues seem unaffected. Hence, clones transmit the disease. Here's another picture of a group of CAC2O4 crystals.

Questions:

If you wanted to give a healthy plant DUDS what would you do?

Have you ever had a plant truly recover from DUDS 100%?

What states are confirmed to have cases of DUDS?
California and Colorado for sure.

 

[We Solidarity]

The wide shot is at 1000x, cross section of stem at an obvious blockage. No stain. The closer shot is 1500x. I chased fungi for 2-3 years on this one. I thought these were spores. Friend of mine stumbled across CAC2O4. We thought maybe CA toxicity, but that doesn't explain the infection rate. Toxicity wouldn't target a random 1-75% and leave the rest. Has to be pathogenic.

I've found it in maybe 25 samples, all clones from major strains, e.g. OG, SD, GSC, GG4. Only sample in which I've found no CAC2O4 druse presence was from seed in an isolated room. My working theory today is that this is a virus that causes the disease we're calling DUDS. I first encountered it for sure in 2011, but I see evidence as far back as 2008. It affects all mediums, it's not root borne. I think it over-winters, which might suggest you can control it thermally. I'm testing that now.

I think the virus acts in some way to cause the buildup of CAC2O4 druse, resulting in the blockage of xylem tissue and prohibits the plant from moving nutrients up or down. The xylem road block results in buildups of toxins and deficiencies of vital nutrients. It tends to move up, not down. Root tissues seem unaffected. Hence, clones transmit the disease. Here's another picture of a group of CAC2O4 crystals.

Questions:

If you wanted to give a healthy plant DUDS what would you do?

Have you ever had a plant truly recover from DUDS 100%?

What states are confirmed to have cases of DUDS?
California and Colorado for sure.

Awesome to finally run into someone else who has been taking g this seriously. I'm messaging you now.

 

[GrowGod]

If you read through the whole thread it does appear most of these dud issues are from growers who either share cuts or have ran elite cuts at one time.i dont do it and i have ran through my share of seeds and never had a dud and i smoke like a chimney in both my rooms and work outdoors.i dont even change cloths before i tend my plants,unless maybe i ran a weedwhip and have stuff all over the bottom of my pan t s lol.
I really think this is genetic and from passing cuts.and possible its passed on through the seeds of dud moms.
As for tmv i guess i been lucky cause I have been taking my own cuts for years and never wash my hands and use some pretty "crusty" scissors to take them sometimes lol.
I guess i woukd say if you suspect a dud in your garden get rid of that shit quick as you can.

I knew this guy 10 years ago and I swear we were both on the same level of quality. I gifted him all these cuts a few years ago and never a sign of duds. I lost a few strains So I wanted them back and in return I get a bunch of dudded crap. I killed all the vegging duds but have a few in flower I will take pics of tonight.
I took cuts from some of my strains and his a few months back so I'm pretty sure that was when the contamination started in my strains.
Just pisses me off. Been taking cuts from elites for 10 years and never a problem. Don't trust dumbass cash croppers who visit the grow once a week.

 

[xavier7995]

So I have still been getting my ass kicked trying to pop some seeds that are a tahoe og cross. One little fellow has just been clinging desperately at life, so I am letting it ride. Not really worried about whatever it is transferring to other plants. This one sprouted about 2 weeks ago.

 

[leadsled]

Please do post up your test results. Interesting findings. Your pathogen statement seems on track with hemp canker.

Calcium oxalate forming in plants.
That is one way the plant poisons the pest attacking it.
Or could be the start of pathogens attacking the plants.

Calcium oxalate crystals in plants:
2

Hemp canker.
Here is another perspective that makes me suspect it could be related to:
Sclerotinia sclerotiorum
Oxalic Acid, a Pathogenicity Factor for Sclerotinia sclerotiorum, Suppresses the Oxidative Burst of the Host Plant


Effective pathogenesis by the fungus Sclerotinia sclerotiorum requires the secretion of oxalic acid.

----
Oxalate production by fungi: its role in pathogenicity and ecology in the soil environment:


Oxalate secretion by fungi provides many advantages for their growth and colonization of substrates. The role of oxalic acid in pathogenesis is through acidification of host tissues and sequestration of calcium from host cell walls. The formation of calcium oxalate crystals weakens the cell walls, thereby allowing polygalacturonase to effect degradation more rapidly in a synergistic response. There is good correlation between pathogenesis, virulence, and oxalic acid secretion. Solubility of soil nutrients is achieved by soil-living species, when cations freed by oxalate diffusing in clay layers increases the effective solubility of Al and Fe. Oxalate retained in hyphal mats of mycorrhizal species increases phosphate and sulphate availability. The formation of calcium oxalate crystals provides a reservoir of calcium in the ecosystem. The ability of oxalate to bind divalent cations permits detoxification of copper, particularly evident in wood preserved with copper salts. Oxalate plays a unique role in lignocellulose degradation by wood-rotting basidiomycetes, acting as a low molecular mass agent initiating decay. In addition, in white-rot fungi oxalate acts as a potential electron donor for lignin-peroxidase catalysed reduction and chelates manganese, allowing the dissolution of Mn3+ from the manganese–enzyme complex and thus stimulating extracellular manganese peroxidase activity. The biosynthesis and degradation of oxalate are discussed.Key words: oxalic acid, calcium oxalate, pathogenicity, fungi.

 

[xavier7995]

So I have still been getting my ass kicked trying to pop some seeds that are a tahoe og cross. One little fellow has just been clinging desperately at life, so I am letting it ride. Not really worried about whatever it is transferring to other plants. This one sprouted about 2 weeks ago.

So interesting thing...that little dudded dude has more than doubled in size in the past two days. The tiny sets of 3 leaves in the above are now normal sized and looking healthy. Something is still really strange with this plant.

edit: did the plant pass the stone?

 

[mittenmedgrow]

Very strange problem you guys are having, seems like their are some great minds working on this issue I'm sure you will find a solution. I'm running a lot of the same cuts that come from cats out west and I have never seen one of these duds. Weird shit going on here, I hope you guys find a solution before it spreads nationwide. Thank you for your work and bringing this problem to light

 

[GrowGod]

Indiana bubblegum left is the dud right is normal

 

[Ricksauce]

Indiana bubblegum left is the dud right is normal View attachment 557273View attachment 557276

We're looking at Sunn Hemp Mosaic Virus for this right now. I'll post results as we get them. It's widespread. The industry is infected.

 

[GrowGod]

We're looking at Sunn Hemp Mosaic Virus for this right now. I'll post results as we get them. It's widespread. The industry is infected.

Some asshole I got cuts from started this crap. Never again

 

[Dunge]

Some asshole I got cuts from started this crap. Never again

Perhaps grower zero was a victim of biology just like you.
The spread being the result of the industrialization and a tenancy towards mono culture.

This issue sure does make me rethink quarantine requirements.
i.e. I remember wanting GG#4

 

[GrowGod]

Perhaps grower zero was a victim of biology just like you.
The spread being the result of the industrialization and a tenancy towards mono culture.

This issue sure does make me rethink quarantine requirements.
i.e. I remember wanting GG#4

Stupid move on my part especially after I cut clones of his stuff and mine at the same time.
I have a wookie in bloom and she has one branch dudded so maybe it's stem nematodes.
for now I will kill any and all infected.