Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

Ricksauce · Dec 23, 2015

GrowGod said:
Stupid move on my part especially after I cut clones of his stuff and mine at the same time.
I have a wookie in bloom and she has one branch dudded so maybe it's stem nematodes.
for now I will kill any and all infected.[/QUOTE

GrowGod said:
Stupid move on my part especially after I cut clones of his stuff and mine at the same time.
I have a wookie in bloom and she has one branch dudded so maybe it's stem nematodes.
for now I will kill any and all infected.

You didn't make a stupid move. The person that gave you those didn't have a chance to stop it. This is industry wide. People have been blaming broad mites and fusarium for this problem for years.

I wish it were as simple as those things or stem nematodes. They'd be a piece of cake compared to a virus. The whole country is infected - not every single garden, but the vast majority of appreciable vectors are seeing it routinely. It goes into seed easily, clones for sure. Information is pouring into my mailbox about this pathogen daily. It's basically everywhere.

I'm almost certain that this is viral. In a few weeks or a month we'll have pictures with SEMs and then we'll sequence it and put a name to this thing. This will get worse until everybody realizes and eventually admits that there is a central pathogen responsible for this dirty little problem plaguing the industry. People are going to fight this idea because the implications are extreme. It's bad.

Best thing you can do for now is to cull the obvious symptomatic individuals. GG4 is very susceptible. Consider it plant AIDS. Make Magic Johnson plants. Keep your beneficials pumping and run a painfully clean operation. Cull anything that looks at you sideways and plant at least 30% over what you need anticipating substantial losses. If you're in common soil, make sure you don't plant duds in your beds. Veg in buckets for as long as you can. All your plants have it. 2-30% will become symptomatic if you run a tight show. GG4 might be worse.

Those of us with labs will culture this out of existing genetics and make resistant strains but this will take months/years. We're in it for the long haul.

Please post your results or message me with any questions or observations. I'm actively studying this thing and no detail is too small or unimportant. Good luck.

GrowGod · Dec 23, 2015

Ricksauce said:
You didn't make a stupid move. The person that gave you those didn't have a chance to stop it. This is industry wide. People have been blaming broad mites and fusarium for this problem for years.

I wish it were as simple as those things or stem nematodes. They'd be a piece of cake compared to a virus. The whole country is infected - not every single garden, but the vast majority of appreciable vectors are seeing it routinely. It goes into seed easily, clones for sure. Information is pouring into my mailbox about this pathogen daily. It's basically everywhere.

I'm almost certain that this is viral. In a few weeks or a month we'll have pictures with SEMs and then we'll sequence it and put a name to this thing. This will get worse until everybody realizes and eventually admits that there is a central pathogen responsible for this dirty little problem plaguing the industry. People are going to fight this idea because the implications are extreme. It's bad.

Best thing you can do for now is to cull the obvious symptomatic individuals. GG4 is very susceptible. Consider it plant AIDS. Make Magic Johnson plants. Keep your beneficials pumping and run a painfully clean operation. Cull anything that looks at you sideways and plant at least 30% over what you need anticipating substantial losses. If you're in common soil, make sure you don't plant duds in your beds. Veg in buckets for as long as you can. All your plants have it. 2-30% will become symptomatic if you run a tight show. GG4 might be worse.

Those of us with labs will culture this out of existing genetics and make resistant strains but this will take months/years. We're in it for the long haul.

Please post your results or message me with any questions or observations. I'm actively studying this thing and no detail is too small or unimportant. Good luck.

So if its a virus how is it being transferred from one strain to another? Cloning in the same pot?

Ricksauce · Dec 23, 2015

GrowGod said:
So if its a virus how is it being transferred from one strain to another? Cloning in the same pot?

If it's a virus, and I'd bet all the money it is, it's spread by direct contact. We've been spreading it for years just doing what we do. I doubt it's truly airborne, but dried trim dust probably carries enough load to transmit. Clones and seeds, then physical contact or by water. Earliest evidence I've found of it is 2008 in SD in SoCal. After that I speculate it went exponential through multiple vectors having infected numerous OG and SD strains which spread to CO and the entire west coast. As people accumulated hybrids of OG and SD like GSC and GG4, it cut deep. It cross contaminated most things it touched. Since it's only fatal in some cases and it's infectiousness ebbs and flows, rarely causing total destruction, it's not been nailed down until now. People thought it was broad mites.

I've been chasing this for three years, full time. I couldn't rule out all other fungal or bacterial infection, insect/bug infestation or mineral deficiency until recently. This took me years to do that work. I'll publish the entire body of research for peer review eventually but there's enough to go on now, I'm not waiting another year. GG4 vector blew the puzzle up and evidence poured into my team. The math works. The pathogen is small - I can't see it. It's not fungal. It's not bacterial. It's not a bug. It crosses all genetics as far as I know. It's not mineral. The writing is on the wall. Virus.

Next up; which virus?

TMV was confirmed present in some samples. We're looking at all the tobamoviruses currently. Sunn Hemp Mosaic Virus looks possible.

You have pics? Please post if you can

Ricksauce · Dec 23, 2015

GrowGod said:
So if its a virus how is it being transferred from one strain to another? Cloning in the same pot?

You can't even kill this with bleach if this is a particularly durable tobamovirus. We'll have to culture it out and breed resistant genetic hybrids to solve.

GrowGod · Dec 23, 2015

Ricksauce said:
If it's a virus, and I'd bet all the money it is, it's spread by direct contact. We've been spreading it for years just doing what we do. I doubt it's truly airborne, but dried trim dust probably carries enough load to transmit. Clones and seeds, then physical contact or by water. Earliest evidence I've found of it is 2008 in SD in SoCal. After that I speculate it went exponential through multiple vectors having infected numerous OG and SD strains which spread to CO and the entire west coast. As people accumulated hybrids of OG and SD like GSC and GG4, it cut deep. It cross contaminated most things it touched. Since it's only fatal in some cases and it's infectiousness ebbs and flows, rarely causing total destruction, it's not been nailed down until now. People thought it was broad mites.

I've been chasing this for three years, full time. I couldn't rule out all other fungal or bacterial infection, insect/bug infestation or mineral deficiency until recently. This took me years to do that work. I'll publish the entire body of research for peer review eventually but there's enough to go on now, I'm not waiting another year. GG4 vector blew the puzzle up and evidence poured into my team. The math works. The pathogen is small - I can't see it. It's not fungal. It's not bacterial. It's not a bug. It crosses all genetics as far as I know. It's not mineral. The writing is on the wall. Virus.

Next up; which virus?

TMV was confirmed present in some samples. We're looking at all the tobamoviruses currently. Sunn Hemp Mosaic Virus looks possible.

You have pics? Please post if you can

Plants have skin persay like people and I can shake a mans hand with aides and not catch aids. So if your saying all the plants have to do is touch then it's not like aids but much worse. Dun dun dun!!!!!
You are sounding a little like those conspiracy theorist dudes on fakebook lol
And Magic didn't have full blown aids though he was hiv+. Amazing what money can do for you.

Ricksauce · Dec 23, 2015

GrowGod said:
Plants have skin persay like people and I can shake a mans hand with aides and not catch aids. So if your saying all the plants have to do is touch then it's not like aids but much worse. Dun dun dun!!!!!
You are sounding a little like those conspiracy theorist dudes on fakebook lol
And Magic didn't have full blown aids though he was hiv+. Amazing what money can do for you.

Certainly I do sound like a conspiracy theorist. I'd like nothing more than to be wrong. Please find something else and prove it. Like I said, I'd bet all the money. Please prove me wrong.

Read through the thread, I've done my homework. The mechanism of xylem destruction I think I found is the formation of massive amounts of crystals of calcium oxalate inside the plant's cell walls. Check it out. I'll attach more images below. They're mine, not from the Internet.

Plant viruses are fundamentally different than animal viruses in modes of infection. A plants blood is basically water. Hard to keep water in just ones plant. They constantly have material containing active virus falling from them. The virus doesn't die when the plant material turns to dust. HIV dies outside the human body in seconds or minutes.

Our industry has traded clones (shared needles) - bred seeds (had unprotected sex) and created weak hybrids designed for maximum visual appeal, small and size without regard to resistance to disease.

Ricksauce · Dec 23, 2015

Sorry for all the typos and phone pics in that last post. I'm on mobile for holidays.

Seamaiden · Dec 23, 2015

Ricksauce said:
I'm almost certain that this is viral. In a few weeks or a month we'll have pictures with SEMs and then we'll sequence it and put a name to this thing. This will get worse until everybody realizes and eventually admits that there is a central pathogen responsible for this dirty little problem plaguing the industry. People are going to fight this idea because the implications are extreme. It's bad.

If it is, then there are, at the very least, some steps that can and should be taken to mitigate its spread. Milk, unbelievably, may be one good and easily accessible method for people to use. Here's a paper I found some years ago on it. So leave bleach out of the equation here, is my suggestion. These folks are very, very specific to the viruses and associated behavior on the presence of milk.

Excerpted (I'll attach the whole paper, it's really very good information just on disease control, vectoring, eradication, etc)

"IF TMV/ToMV is detected;

 Spray plants with whole or skim milk (5 gals /100 gals water) or dried milk (5 lbs/100 gals water) per 100 sq. yds. of plants.
The coat protein of the virus reacts with proteins in milk, so milk has been used to inactivate of the virus.
 Spraying plants 1 to 24 hrs before handling has been effective in some cases.
 Frequent washing of hands with milk or soap and water when handling plants is also important."

http://www.ct.gov/caes/lib/caes/pdi...h_tunnel_tomato_diseases_11-03-09_handout.pdf

http://articles.extension.org/pages...anic-tomatoes-in-greenhouses-and-high-tunnels

Also, somewhat alluded to but not discussed directly here is how the infected plant material is handled. These papers address this.

GrowGod · Dec 23, 2015

Ricksauce said:
Certainly I do sound like a conspiracy theorist. I'd like nothing more than to be wrong. Please find something else and prove it. Like I said, I'd bet all the money. Please prove me wrong.

Read through the thread, I've done my homework. The mechanism of xylem destruction I think I found is the formation of massive amounts of crystals of calcium oxalate inside the plant's cell walls. Check it out. I'll attach more images below. They're mine, not from the Internet.

Plant viruses are fundamentally different than animal viruses in modes of infection. A plants blood is basically water. Hard to keep water in just ones plant. They constantly have material containing active virus falling from them. The virus doesn't die when the plant material turns to dust. HIV dies outside the human body in seconds or minutes.

Our industry has traded clones (shared needles) - bred seeds (had unprotected sex) and created weak hybrids designed for maximum visual appeal, small and size without regard to resistance to disease.

Well I have no proof guess we will just hope your wrong. It sux for me because I dispise the industry, thinking I'm getting clones back I gifted then hit with duds makes me sick

Bulldog11 · Dec 24, 2015

GrowGod said:
Well I have no proof guess we will just hope your wrong. It sux for me because I dispise the industry, thinking I'm getting clones back I gifted then hit with duds makes me sick

I have been growing for over 15 years. I have handed out so many elite cuts, and I am not sure if one was ever kept longer than one flowering run. People suck, they have no passion.

GrowGod · Dec 24, 2015

Bulldog11 said:
I have been growing for over 15 years. I have handed out so many elite cuts, and I am not sure if one was ever kept longer than one flowering run. People suck, they have no passion.

Well if you never kept any past one flowering run I would not consider them elite. :shockedninja: Going and picking clones up from the dispo doesn't make them elite lol. There just clones usually s1's of the originals.
Maybe you can share some pics of the Hassan elite of all elites

Bulldog11 · Dec 25, 2015

GrowGod said:
Well if you never kept any past one flowering run I would not consider them elite. :shockedninja: Going and picking clones up from the dispo doesn't make them elite lol. There just clones usually s1's of the originals.
Maybe you can share some pics of the Hassan elite of all elites

Pretty sure I know an elite cut when I see one.....I think you misunderstood. I keep those cuts for decades some times. and the people I give them out to run them once and for some reason or another loose the mother.

For example, I just gave my buddy 50 clones. 20 GSC forum cut, 20 Gelato, 5 Sunset sherbets, 4 Black Lime Reserves and one Hassan. They were 75% rooted, and he killed 100% of the cuts, before they reached soil. This was after driving 3 hours to give him the clones.

Pissed me off.

The Hassan isn't quite ready for pictures. She is being tested right now for vigor and resistance. It's been around a very long time, and I want to make sure she is everything she used to be. In the flower room right now I also have several males ready to hit the Hasan as flower progresses here. This spring I will be running the Hassan, Hassan s1's. There will be plenty of pictures when the time comes. I even have a professional photographer hired for when the time comes. I know, it sounds like hype. However, I am not breeding crap, so I must test everything first.

mulehunter · Dec 25, 2015

We Solidarity said:
this problem's been around for way longer than I've been using tea (I've seen it in over 20 grows, from hydro to soil, big plants, little plants, organic, synthetic, open hoods, closed hoods, different light techs, etc) and honestly I was never able to keep the duds green (always started losing fan leaves) until I started using biowar. Even duds grow two inches overnight with a tea foliar and with 30-40% of my media being perlite I'd be suprised if there is any oxygen deprivation in the roots (unless they're overwatered, which only happens on occasion when they are up-potted and the roots are surrounded by wet media).

I've never switched up my bennies for the same reason I don't switch up my nutes (except the strength of the feed). Plants rely on a chemical relationship with the media, and as long as the chemistry of the media is staying consistent and not fluctuating the plant's chemistry will also stay consistent and productive. Everything's gotten better since I stopped jumping everywhere and feeding different things at different times. If there are four organisms in root pack that affect fusarium I'm not going to try to rotate through products that don't even have those organisms in them, I'm going to use the fuck out of the root pack and pretty much only the root pack to ensure that I have huge populations of all those bacteria/fungi.

Are they tiny lice looking ,that jump around in your runoff watering? If so im having that problem any more info on this

mittenmedgrow · Dec 25, 2015

mulehunter said:
Are they tiny lice looking ,that jump around in your runoff watering? If so im having that problem any more info on this

No, I've never heard that description of lice like creatures relating to cannabis, maybe Google spring tales just taking a stab in the dark

mulehunter · Dec 25, 2015

mittenmedgrow said:
No, I've never heard that description of lice like creatures relating to cannibas, maybe Google spring tales just taking a stab in the dark

Yea somthing like that they are tiny little white bugs that bounce around on top of the nutrient runoff, have you ever seen this it seems i always have them ,and i start to see rust spots on my leaves almost like a calmag def.any thoughts?

Seamaiden · Dec 25, 2015

@mulehunter -- if you're suspecting a "calmag" deficiency (there is no such thing), this isn't the thread. If you can take pix and write up about how you've been handling the plant, post in the infirmary section, you'll get a lot more and much better help that way.

Bulldog11 said:
For example, I just gave my buddy 50 clones. 20 GSC forum cut, 20 Gelato, 5 Sunset sherbets, 4 Black Lime Reserves and one Hassan. They were 75% rooted, and he killed 100% of the cuts, before they reached soil. This was after driving 3 hours to give him the clones.

<facepalm><facepalm> I woulda taken those. By the by, I'm on the mend, gonna be in touch with you soon, ok?

mittenmedgrow · Dec 25, 2015

Bulldog11 said:
Pretty sure I know an elite cut when I see one.....I think you misunderstood. I keep those cuts for decades some times. and the people I give them out to run them once and for some reason or another loose the mother.

For example, I just gave my buddy 50 clones. 20 GSC forum cut, 20 Gelato, 5 Sunset sherbets, 4 Black Lime Reserves and one Hassan. They were 75% rooted, and he killed 100% of the cuts, before they reached soil. This was after driving 3 hours to give him the clones.

Pissed me off.

The Hassan isn't quite ready for pictures. She is being tested right now for vigor and resistance. It's been around a very long time, and I want to make sure she is everything she used to be. In the flower room right now I also have several males ready to hit the Hasan as flower progresses here. This spring I will be running the Hassan, Hassan s1's. There will be plenty of pictures when the time comes. I even have a professional photographer hired for when the time comes. I know, it sounds like hype. However, I am not breeding crap, so I must test everything first.

I have ran lots of other people's elites once or twice and scrapped them. What I've realized is one person's idea of an elite might differ from mine. I've ran well over 100 elite cuts and I'd only consider a third of them true gems. I have a friend that was killing clones left and right, I didn't get pissed at him I took the time to help him learn and brought him more cuts. You can't just hand over the keys to a Ferrari and not teach them how to drive it. I really hope someone figures out this issue with duds before it infects my garden . Can't thank you guys enough for working on a solution

Ricksauce · Dec 25, 2015

mittenmedgrow said:
I have ran lots of other people's elites once or twice and scrapped them. What I've realized is one person's idea of an elite might differ from mine. I've ran well over 100 elite cuts and I'd only consider a third of them true gems. I have a friend that was killing clones left and right, I didn't get pissed at him I took the time to help him learn and brought him more cuts. You can't just hand over the keys to a Ferrari and not teach them how to drive it. I really hope someone figures out this issue with duds before it infects my garden . Can't thank you guys enough for working on a solution

Duds research is underway, bigtime. Stay tuned!

GrowGod · Dec 26, 2015

Bah humbug

@Ricksauce

Ricksauce · Dec 26, 2015

GrowGod said:
Bah humbugView attachment 558181 View attachment 558182
@Ricksauce

That's our girl. What genetic you have there? Clone? Seed? You keeps the moms or buy from a source? What's your medium? You notice in veg? I'm looking for as much anecdotal evidence as I can get for a master index of occurrence. This is a big problem. Message me if you want to email, I'm grateful for all details I can get and I'll publish whatever results I can find.

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