We Solidarity said:

I keep moms in a 50/50 ffof and coco mix...i see it on the moms, the ones in soil usually only have one or two lower branches dud out, anything in coco duds out 100% when it does it.

Found a lab that will do testing. Going to test for the following:

Pythium
TMV
BYDV (which I believe we are seeing - transmitted only by aphids, which are the only pest I have. Couldn't have been BM contamination since I've never had them and isn't pythium because even if the plant is runted the roots can looks absolutely amazing. Hoping to get a pic today showing that. Plus any runted plants automatically become aphid bait)

Also testing for a few systemic strains of fungi to see if anything in the amendments (humisoil, caps bennies, EWC) could be causing negative effects from over-application.

this thread really blew up sorry I haven't been participating as much as I would like. Now that we've got some diagnoses down...has anyone been able to bring plants out of this?

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Hmm, interesting on the BYDV. How long does that stay in the plant? because I haven't had aphids in some time and none in the veg duds, and not the moms they came from as far as I know.

Def keep us posted.

true grit said:

Hmm, interesting on the BYDV. How long does that stay in the plant? because I haven't had aphids in some time and none in the veg duds, and not the moms they came from as far as I know.

Def keep us posted.

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That was the virus lilmisslone says took out their grow all those years ago. Remember that? It's pretty much a permanent thing IIRC her saying, they had to trash everything. They believe it was vectored initially by root aphids, but I've read that all these viruses are easily vectored by many different pests, including animals like fungus gnats.

true grit said:

Hmm, interesting on the BYDV. How long does that stay in the plant? because I haven't had aphids in some time and none in the veg duds, and not the moms they came from as far as I know.

Def keep us posted.

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Like most viruses it would stay with the genetic indefinitely...my lab source said there are dna-protecting proteins that plants produce that combat viral attacks...you can apply them to the plant as prevention but no cure.

Here are some blue dream dud comparisons. Keep in mind this is the same strain same environment same veg time same everything. The first pic is just an over all size comparison the ones closest are the duds. The next two are the difference in thc production and the last two is the more horizontal growth compared with the good vertical growth. The duds also just smell like plant.

this really fucks the hydro guys if its getting passed through the root zone. & with no mom's , could wipe out your genetics stable ....

& everyone with issues when did this start in your grow. - ( after battling pest or taking in fresh clones ? ? )

how does the clone game work in cali .... i've seen guys speak about " clone brokers " / guys with original cookies gear ....., . so do you have certain groups of guys with tons of prized cuts setting up trades, setting up dispensaries ? ? if they run hydro, they could be passing everything around amongst cuts ..., who knows just wondering ???

186183 said:

Here are some blue dream dud comparisons. Keep in mind this is the same strain same environment same veg time same everything. The first pic is just an over all size comparison the ones closest are the duds. The next two are the difference in thc production and the last two is the more horizontal growth compared with the good vertical growth. The duds also just smell like plant.

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If you are saying those are duds- they are not duds, or at least not what we are referring to. That may be another problem but duds have absolutely zero trichome production. Generally they are same size as normal or bigger- just no trich, thc, smell...nothin. Look like big fluffy red haired ditch weed with no crystal content at all. If you got white on your buds- they aren't duds. Probably a good thing, but doesn't help with the inconsistent growth problems you may be having.

Wheres @delae632 ? Maybe he can post his GSC dud pic- it will show pretty clearly what a dud is vs a plant that isn't performing correctly

Seamaiden said:

That was the virus lilmisslone says took out their grow all those years ago. Remember that? It's pretty much a permanent thing IIRC her saying, they had to trash everything. They believe it was vectored initially by root aphids, but I've read that all these viruses are easily vectored by many different pests, including animals like fungus gnats.

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Nope hadn't heard about that. Interesting because we've beaten root aphids several times now at different spots and never had duds as a result on those genetics. My stardawg has been through it a couple times at different places and is still rock star solid.

I do not believe it is viral.

some notes........

• Was using clonex brand clone gel
• Could be infection via inconsistent/unclean cloning practices
• Plants seem to be able to grow out of it
• Seems like its a coco related/induced problem or plants are at least more susceptible in coco medium
• Duds first showed on dubtech, o dub a dub etc in socal and prob has since spread

true grit said:

If you are saying those are duds- they are not duds, or at least not what we are referring to. That may be another problem but duds have absolutely zero trichome production. Generally they are same size as normal or bigger- just no trich, thc, smell...nothin. Look like big fluffy red haired ditch weed with no crystal content at all. If you got white on your buds- they aren't duds. Probably a good thing, but doesn't help with the inconsistent growth problems you may be having.

Wheres @delae632 ? Maybe he can post his GSC dud pic- it will show pretty clearly what a dud is vs a plant that isn't performing correctly

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Well the smaller compared to the bigger are def dud plants as far as I'm concerned. Did you see the difference in thc between the first bud shot and the second? No smell to the small ones, and very slow weird growth. Also look at the difference in the hair color between the two, the small ones are all red looking. Once they get that way they never come back. Does anyone have some pics of what you are talking about?

I'll dig up some solid dud pics and chime in a bit later. I'm glad to see this subject finally being discussed in a thread devoted to it.

Thanks @We Solidarity for taking the time.:)

delae632 said:

I'll dig up some solid dud pics.:)

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Way 2 funny doggie..

true grit said:

Interesting talk about lowers only, have you noticed this on any veg plants? Ive noticed with this face-off that a couple of the clones looked like they were starting to dud with first few lowers then went back to normal upward growth and leaves...waiting to clone those tops. And it wasn't until they got some roots and weren't sitting in a damp beer cup that the growth changed. Funny how once we all start talking, ya start noticing similarities you should have already. lol.

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@true grit I've noticed that a few do this and they still bounce back, my guess the Pythium wasn't able to over come the stronger cuts, although still causing issues with the lower branch work the newer tops come out fine as the clone fights the disease.. I've had clones bounce back after sometime..
It has to be an issue while cloning- contaminated tools, trays, excess of water, and weaker cuts.. I've been trying to do a couple things to fight it, I've used h2o2 in the feed which seems to work, I've used bennies which seems to help them but not quite, and a product called wilt guard / regen a root..

Reason why my guess is Pythium and not tmv is that the tobacco mosaic virus displays distinct symptoms, ie. mosaic patterns, and /or a hooking of the leaf tip.. All the pictures above seem to have had issues with ph causing them to twist...

We Solidarity said:

Like most viruses it would stay with the genetic indefinitely...my lab source said there are dna-protecting proteins that plants produce that combat viral attacks...you can apply them to the plant as prevention but no cure.

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@We Solidarity the problem with this is the mother having produce solid cuts and duds, would have to have the similar systems of this virus and if she remains healthy why the cuts don't leads me to believe more of a root disease whether it not be Pythium , maybe another root disease issue.. I've had a look at the duds I just got and yes u do see white roots but the development isn't even close to were it should be... And the plants that have dud'd in only a few lower branches has a weak root development aswell .. I for no means have a certainty of what this is but points to Pythium or a form of it..

Here's some pics of the spore attaching to the roots

EveryOneSmokes said:

@true grit I've noticed that a few do this and they still bounce back, my guess the Pythium wasn't able to over come the stronger cuts, although still causing issues with the lower branch work the newer tops come out fine as the clone fights the disease.. I've had clones bounce back after sometime..
It has to be an issue while cloning- contaminated tools, trays, excess of water, and weaker cuts.. I've been trying to do a couple things to fight it, I've used h2o2 in the feed which seems to work, I've used bennies which seems to help them but not quite, and a product called wilt guard / regen a root..

Reason why my guess is Pythium and not tmv is that the tobacco mosaic virus displays distinct symptoms, ie. mosaic patterns, and /or a hooking of the leaf tip.. All the pictures above seem to have had issues with ph causing them to twist...

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Sorry man, no ph issues here. It gets checked daily at 5.8. I have been dealing with TMV for a Long time and have lab results to show that's what it is. Been doing this for a lot of years and never had the twisting or other issues like now. The mosaic pattern leaves have only shown on a couple strains. It dosn't happen to all. This I why there is so much mis information, out there people think they know what causes every issue when they haven't even dealt with some things. The virus also makes plants look like they have mag def nute burn and many other symptoms, but all comes back to the virus.

DowNwithDirT said:

I do not believe it is viral.

some notes........

• Was using clonex brand clone gel
• Could be infection via inconsistent/unclean cloning practices
• Plants seem to be able to grow out of it
• Seems like its a coco related/induced problem or plants are at least more susceptible in coco medium
• Duds first showed on dubtech, o dub a dub etc in socal and prob has since spread

Click to expand...

sounds to be we have some consistency
The gel, infection through cleanliness of tools, coco may be more prone to the issue although I clone in rockwool and have seen all theses duds in rockwool cubes first, another thing to note is how saturated or excessive watering...
This round I got really lazy with the cloning stage and honestly could say I had less desirable results with a few duds this run..

The nematodes /ˈnɛmətoʊdz/ or roundworms constitute the phylum Nematoda. They are a diverse animal phylum inhabiting a very broad range of environments. Nematode speciescan be difficult to distinguish, and although over 25,000 have been described,[2][3] of which more than half are parasitic, the total number of nematode species has been estimated to be about 1 million.[4] Unlike cnidarians and flatworms, nematodes have tubular digestive systems with openings at both ends.

Total energy consumption during the lifecycle of a female root-knot nematode (Meloidogyne spp.) is 1 calorie.

The total biomass of a female root-knot nematode is 200 µg, including the egg mass (Melakerberhan and Ferris). For say 100,000 nematodes in a root system, the total nematode biomass is 20 g! Allowing for 50% production efficiency, total material extracted from the plant would be 40 g. So, the demand effect on the plant may be minimal unless plant is very stressed and resources are limited.

An adult Heterodera schachtii consumes 11 nL/day of cell content (Muller et al, 1981). So, it would take 1,000,000 such females to remove 11 ml of cell content in a day.

------

Whole-plant effects - Disturbance of the biochemical network. Wallace (1987) points to the complexity of the biochemical pathways:
Photosynthesis divided into two basic phases - a light phase when light energy is converted into chemical energy, and a synthetic phase in which carbohydrates are formed in a series of reactions accelerated by light. Photosynthesis involves a chain of metabolic events cross-linked to other physiological processes, so disruption of one may have effects throughout system.
For example, Bird suggested that photosynthesis is reduced in tomato by Meloidogyne javanica by inhibiting production of cytokinins and gibberellins in roots, and/or by increased stomatal resistance due to water stress.
Fatemy et al. indicate that the response of potato to Globodera rostochiensis is due to stomatal closure through water stress; the result is reduced photosynthesis.
However, generally the mechanisms by which root-infecting pathogens, including nematodes, affect physiological processes have been insufficiently studied.

d. Plant as an Integrator - Metabolic pool concept - plant as an integrator - concepts of demand and damage. Melakeberhan and Ferris characterized five effects of root-knot nematode infection in grape while exploring the impact in an energy partitioning and flow model:

• Reduction (disruption) of water uptake. Seinhorst, however, asserted that there is little evidence of reduction of water uptake in response to nematodes. He measured daily water uptake on a water usage basis - rate of water loss from pots minus increase in dry wt minus evaporation from surface. The rate was a linear function of total dry wt. So, he argued that rate of use per g tissue is constant. However, root damage could result in lower water uptake, and final dry weight could be a function of the rate of water uptake.
• Reduction in rate of photosynthesis.
• Reduced leaf expansion and total photosynthesis.
• Alteration of partitioning of photosynthate- change in root/shoot ratio.
• Increased leakage - direct effect and affect on other pathogens energy supply (Garrett - inoculum potential as a function of the abundance of infective units and the energy resources available to them).

Biotrophic Pathogens

• Pathogens that can only feed on a living host and must keep the host and its cells alive are termed biotrophic pathogens.
  
  
• Sedentary ecto- and endoparasitic nematodes are in this category, for example, species of Meloidogyne, Heterodera, Xiphinema, Tylenchulus, Rotylenchulus.
  
  
• Nematodes that withdraw contents form individual cells and then move to new feeding sites are considered cell grazers.
  

Innate Immunity

• Most plants are resistant to most pathogens; they have highly effective immune systems.Host defense mechanisms may be as extreme as programmed cell death, the hypersensitive response.
  
  
• All biotrophic pathogens must suppress host defenses.The feeding site must be induced without host detection or without induction of host defenses.
  
  
• Following establishment of the feeding site by sedentary nematodes, it must be maintained for up to 5 or 6 weeks to allow the nematode to achieve its reproductive potential.
  
  
• That time scale is much greater than that required by many bacterial and fungal pathogens of plants.
  
  
• Failure to establish and maintain the feeding site may prevent reproduction and therefore is catastrophic to the nematode genotype.
  
  
• Consequently, there is strong selection pressure on nematodes to suppress host defenses.
  

Plant Defenses

1. Pre-existing Defenses – Basal Resistance
   

a.Structural – cuticle, wax, wall thickness, spines that suppress penetration of cells.

b.Chemical-phenolic and other compounds that inhibit or kill invading organisms.

2. Systemic Induced Resistance

1. PAMP Signals
   

• Organisms attempting to feed on plant cells, or to invade plant tissues, betray their presence with recognizable molecular signals on their surfaces.
  
  
• Such signals are termed pathogen associated molecular patterns (PAMPs) and are recognized by pattern recognition receptors on cell surfaces.
  
  
• Chitins in fungal cell walls are PAMPS which trigger immunity responses (pathogen-triggered immunity – PTI).
  
  
• The PAMP signals of nematodes are unknown; chitin is not present in the cuticle although it does occur in egg shells and perhaps in the stylet.
  
  
• Plants characteristically deposit callose to strengthen cell walls at the point of invasion, including at the point of nematode stylet insertion.
  
  
• Also, pathogen invasion trigger the triggers jasmonic acid signaling pathway which stimulates production and release of other defense toxins.
  

Invading bacteria and fungi, and probably nematodes, release effector molecules into plant cells to suppress PTI and render the plant susceptible to infection or invasion.

PAMP-triggered PTI, the first line of defense, may involve production of salicylic acid (SA) as a signal to invoke defense mechanisms.In that case, successful nematode infections would involve suppression of SA production, reduction of callose thickening of cell walls and suppression of active oxygen defense responses (H2O2, superoxide) which may initiate localized programmed cell death – hypersensitive response.

SA signaling is possibly disrupted by chorismate mutase produced in the esophageal glands.In the PTI signaling pathway, chorismate is converted to salicylic acid.Chorismate mutase from the nematode reduces chorismate and thus SA, so defense mechanisms are not triggered.Incidentally, like cellulases, chorismate mutase is an example of horizontal gene transfer from bacteria. Nematodes are the only metazoan with the enzyme.

An alternative mechanism of PTI suppression by nematodes is the production of effectors which cause ubiquitin to attach to plant signal proteins and thus reduce their levels and effectiveness in triggering PTI responses.

The evolution of effector suppression of PTI has resulted in evolution of immune receptors, with a nucleotide-binding domain and a leucine-rich domain (NB-LRR), in plants that recognize the effector molecules and activate effector-triggered immunity (ETI).However, successful pathogens have evolved next-generation effectors that suppress ETI.

One possible candidate is the Hg30C02 effector protein of Heterodera glycines which may be involved in active suppression of host defenses (Hamamouch et al., 2012).

Plants have responded with more specific ETIs and the evolutionary treadmill continues.

PTI responses to PAMPs and DAMPs are relatively general in their effect but higher level ETIs are progressively more specific to individual pathogens.

The cyclical evolutionary process of plant-nematode interactions with regard to plant immunity and susceptibility is depicted by the zig-zag-zig model (Jones and Dangl, 2006).Initially PAMPs trigger PTI which reduces susceptibility.Then nematodes develop effectors that suppress PTI and plants evolve immunity responses to the effectors.