Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

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From the guy who gave the la cup gg4 duds it's really too much to explain and I'm repotting today so I'll quote...."

i did get dud adub and dubtech clones from a vendor who used to frequent these boards and who well may be lying in wait here still. without knowing that from the handful he gave me, i propped them out for several generations before flowering them, so i am very skeptical of the "cloning away from" argument that this practice will fix things. though i was unaware of it at the time as i was of the syndrome, the cuts also carried some tarsonemid class mite or another—broad, cyclamen, hemp russet.

the mites were persistent but easy enough to rid myself of, i was never able to bring the plants back, try though i did. if this were the whole of my story, i would be quick to cast my lot with them that blame the broad mites and to chalk the loss of the plants vigor, terps, and trichs to residual damage from the mites. however, in the time that i was tryong to clone away from dud, after i am 100 the mites had been eradicated, i watched the syndrome spread to other plants. the second i observed and logged this, i culled the lot of them. if you are seeing this in your plants, get them out of your room asap if you want to keep the other strains you've got.

the best practices are nothing magical. quarantine, cull, and scrub.

never introduce anything to your room that you have not sequestered in a safe space and observed for a period of at least two weeks.

promptly remove and destroy any plants you find to be affected.

be immaculate. i've said it before and stand by it unequivocally. OCD is actually a desirable trait in a grower.

that's all i've got. i'm here to learn as much as the next guy."

Sorry but to have broad/russet mites then attribute all the duds to dud symptoms that spread doesn't completely click. If you had a broad/russet infestation then most folk can agree it fucks up your genetics down the line if not permanently. Its a systemic poison of sorts that stays in the plants. Even if you don't see em, doesn't mean the are not there...and if they were those genetics will have it for some time apparently.

So this dude that had all these issues is the guy that spread the GG4 around at the cup? Or am i reading that wrong? If it is folks should seriously be questioning his ethics giving away a shit load of cuts after having ANY of those issues. But i won't jump to conclusions on a cut and paste.

sounds like it all comes back to the alien tech/sour dub line carrying some nasty shit. Fucked up
Nah seen it in plenty of OG genetics. Many have said TK and other older OGs have done it randomly over the many years. I know i had it happen on TK s1 many many years ago.
no it was ebb n flow hydroton.

I can spot them in veg a mile away now, half my last round freaked the fuck out.
Thats kinda where I was going with it though- root zone seems like a reasonable direction to look because I see it happen WAY more in coco/hydro that doesn't support the same root zone biological life. My full duds were in coco, and only soil full duds in flower were plants that had poor root growth at flip and over saturated. Again stress I added to the equation.

Do you keep your moms in soil or coco?

@MakinGoo- so your problems were exacerbated in coco but improved in soil? Odd to hear it on your seed plants though. Almost always its a clone issue, maybe you hit on something with the tossing in runts. My last soil full duds were not sick going in but were definitely not as healthy and were just filler plants...hmm.

@soserthc1 - your twisting leaves, still healthy buds but small yield are not indicative of duds. Duds are normal size with zero frost, trich, smell etc...no where near a normal bud.

I smoke the livin shit out of tobacco, no duds no runts :) kinda sounds like a west coast deal.gotta be a bug/virus
Not sure thats the case, but i think it would be safe to assume that folks out western US run a lot more plants than most others. This gives a lot larger pool of muddled genetics to see the issue happen.
 
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@true grit in coco was the 1st time ive ever seen a dud... now im in soil & I thought I had a few duds & I posted um & D said they looked kool & posted his gsc dud & it was 100% dud like a regular og dud so I figured mine werent quite full duds.... they might not even b duds bcuz they had some thc <<< & a real dud~n~ski dont got any THC...

So id juss have 2 say those plants juss grew like shit..

4sho 100% duds were in coco & were seed plants White Bubba, & White Fire,even FPOG . Its possible the yeti juss sucked balls it wasnt my pheno <<<<< maybe theres yeti phenos with no crystals? LoL prolly not but who knows?
Aligee later gave me some Fire Ass White Bubba & I still grow the wifi 1 & FPOG so I know 4sho those 3 strains went dud on me..
 
Thats kinda where I was going with it though- root zone seems like a reasonable direction to look because I see it happen WAY more in coco/hydro that doesn't support the same root zone biological life. My full duds were in coco, and only soil full duds in flower were plants that had poor root growth at flip and over saturated. Again stress I added to the equation.
TG, I've seen my buddies tahoe turn full on dud in organic soil indoors perfectly healthy, no stress whatsoever. I've also seen this same plant come out perfect outdoors 2 months prior, cuts were taken from the same mom; The mother was kept in organic soil. Full on duds tend to produce fatter buds then normal do to the shortened internodes.. It seems like the sun contracts the dud symptoms that we would normally see inside...

@186183 Do you have any paper work that came back from the lab?.. I've talked to guys from sclabs a few months back and they did confirm several samples testing positive for TMV.
 
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Right on @We Solidarity .. Some good info, this can be really big issues...

I just was talking about this to my boy, and trying to inform him about selection..

I recently had some ghost clones that dud'd on me, they were picked of a healthy mom, which leads me to believe that it so happens to be more of a root disease that inhibits the immune system of the plant, causing inhibited root development... I've chalking it up to Pythium .. I've noticed the issue in the cloning stage and only became more evident while vegging..

Here's a some info on Pythium ...

While root rot can be caused by several different species of the fungus-like organism Pythium, the three most commonly encountered species are Pythium irregulare, Pythium aphanidermatum, and Pythium ultimum . P. ultimum and P. irregulare are often found in field soil, sand, pond and stream water and their sediments, and dead roots of previous crops. P irregulare has been isolated from almost every type of greenhouse crop grown but P. aphanidermatum seems to be associated primarily with poinsettia and very few other crops. Pythium can be in commercially available soilless potting mixes. It is easily introduced into pasteurized soil or soilless mixes by using dirty tools, dirty pots or flats, walking on or allowing pets to walk on the mixes and by dumping the mixes on benches or potting shed floors that have not been thoroughly cleaned. Fungus gnat and shorefly activity may also be involved in moving Pythium from place to place in greenhouses. When introduced into a soil mix that has been heat-treated for too long or at too high a temperature, Pythium can cause severe root rot because it has few competitors to check its activity. P. aphanidermatum and P. irregulare pose a threat to crops grown in ebb and flow systems because they form a swimming spore stage that can move in water. This is likely to occur only if irrigation times are long (45 min. or longer) or if pots sit in puddles of water because the bench or floor does not drain completely. If Pythium infests a cutting bed or if contaminated water is used in propagation, large losses occur. Pythium ultimum is primarily associated with soil and sand. As growers switched to soilless mixes, this species became less important than when growers used field soil in the potting mix. P. ultimum does not form the swimming spore stage but can be a problem in ebb and flow systems if the reservoir becomes fouled with potting mix and plant debris particles harboring it. Almost all plants are susceptible to Pythium root rot. Root tips, very important in taking up nutrients and water, are attacked and killed first. Pythium also can rot the base of cuttings.

Symptoms
  • Plants are stunted.
  • Root tips are brown and dead.
  • Plants wilt at mid-day and may recover at night.
  • Plants yellow and die.
  • Brown tissue on the outer portion of the root easily pulls off leaving a strand of vascular tissue exposed.
  • The cells of roots contain round, microscopic, thick-walled spores.
Here's the full article ..
http://extension.psu.edu/pests/plant-diseases/all-fact-sheets/pythium


Here's Another exert
Pythium root rot
[Pythium spp.]


SYMPTOMS


Pythium root rot is a persistent problem in areas that are poorly drained or over-irrigated. The disease can also occur in well-drained areas following extended periods of rainfall. Pythium root rot can occur at any time of the year as long as the soil remains saturated for several days or weeks. From a distance, symptoms are orange or yellow and usually appear in irregular patterns, but occasionally develop in spots or distinct patches. Symptoms of Pythium root rot may spread in drainage patterns during periods of heavy rainfall. On individual plants, the crowns, roots, rhizomes, and/or stolons will appear dark and greasy. The depth and density of roots will be drastically reduced in affected areas.

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/r280100211.html
 
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This was my first time with more than two dud's which leads me to believe it was totally any issue of cleanliness, excess watering during cloning , and possibly and older mother that may of produce weaker clones, which allowed the Pythium to ravage them..


Here's some pictures of some dud clones..
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And some healthier non affected clones
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And one last shot of a new mom, she's a little underfed but glad she's no affected..
image.jpg
 
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@true grit I hear u about having branches dud out, and again I think this is caused by the onset of Pythium.. I had a Louie cut do the same thing.. Only the lower branch or two were affected, which leads me to believe the Pythium got ahold of hear and compromised the root zone.. Once I checked here out after chop I noticed the root zone was under developed/almost non existent and had played apart in the overall growth of the flowers...
 
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Sorry but to have broad/russet mites then attribute all the duds to dud symptoms that spread doesn't completely click. If you had a broad/russet infestation then most folk can agree it fucks up your genetics down the line if not permanently. Its a systemic poison of sorts that stays in the plants. Even if you don't see em, doesn't mean the are not there...and if they were those genetics will have it for some time apparently.
So this dude that had all these issues is the guy that spread the GG4 around at the cup? Or am i reading that wrong? If it is folks should seriously be questioning his ethics giving away a shit load of cuts after having ANY of those issues. But i won't jump to conclusions on a cut and paste.



Nah seen it in plenty of OG genetics. Many have said TK and other older OGs have done it randomly over the many years. I know i had it happen on TK s1 many many years ago.


Thats kinda where I was going with it though- root zone seems like a reasonable direction to look because I see it happen WAY more in coco/hydro that doesn't support the same root zone biological life. My full duds were in coco, and only soil full duds in flower were plants that had poor root growth at flip and over saturated. Again stress I added to the equation.

Do you keep your moms in soil or coco?

@MakinGoo- so your problems were exacerbated in coco but improved in soil? Odd to hear it on your seed plants though. Almost always its a clone issue, maybe you hit on something with the tossing in runts. My last soil full duds were not sick going in but were definitely not as healthy and were just filler plants...hmm.

@soserthc1 - your twisting leaves, still healthy buds but small yield are not indicative of duds. Duds are normal size with zero frost, trich, smell etc...no where near a normal bud.



Not sure thats the case, but i think it would be safe to assume that folks out western US run a lot more plants than most others. This gives a lot larger pool of muddled genetics to see the issue happen.
yeah sunset limited is a piece of crap but you know how IC works everybody kissing ass to get cuts really nobody but me (different handle at IC)and a few others called him out on this and really getting tired of doing so he ran and was hiding out then he posts this as some excuse...lol guy is an IC "mentor" he actually has that badge under his handle. It was a money grab dirty all around dude is a piece of work some here know that but I'm not going to bring him into it. But yeah true I agree sounds like bs to me too. It's a dirty game guy handled the situation all wrong.
 
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Here is the results back on a few different strains. These are just the results from the test strips. On my first run after testing positive they did testing of the cells to confirm. I don't know if the test strips are 100% accurate but the cell testing is. The lab said they are looking in to developing a strip just for our crop.

I don't believe this is a Pythian problem as none of mine came back positive for that. The thing with the virus is it causes so many symptoms that look like one problem or another and by changing little things you can fix some of them but the real problem is still there. People just end up chasing there tail in circles. I was one of them.

Those pics above have the virus for sure. I see It everywhere the more I look online. It's not always crazy symptoms that look horrible. Some plants will just show some minor leaf twist, but they still have it.

4 years tobacco free for me! Best thing I ever did!
 
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TG, I've seen my buddies tahoe turn full on dud in organic soil indoors perfectly healthy, no stress whatsoever. I've also seen this same plant come out perfect outdoors 2 months prior, cuts were taken from the same mom; The mother was kept in organic soil. Full on duds tend to produce fatter buds then normal do to the shortened internodes.. It seems like the sun contracts the dud symptoms that we would normally see inside...

@186183 Do you have any paper work that came back from the lab?.. I've talked to guys from sclabs a few months back and they did confirm several samples testing positive for TMV.
Ya I've heard from several people that the Tahoe is notorious for it. Im mom'ing one up now and hoping she won't present any issues for me as I enjoy the smoke.

@true grit I hear u about having branches dud out, and again I think this is caused by the onset of Pythium.. I had a Louie cut do the same thing.. Only the lower branch or two were affected, which leads me to believe the Pythium got ahold of hear and compromised the root zone.. Once I checked here out after chop I noticed the root zone was under developed/almost non existent and had played apart in the overall growth of the flowers...
Interesting talk about lowers only, have you noticed this on any veg plants? Ive noticed with this face-off that a couple of the clones looked like they were starting to dud with first few lowers then went back to normal upward growth and leaves...waiting to clone those tops. And it wasn't until they got some roots and weren't sitting in a damp beer cup that the growth changed. Funny how once we all start talking, ya start noticing similarities you should have already. lol.

yeah sunset limited is a piece of crap but you know how IC works everybody kissing ass to get cuts really nobody but me (different handle at IC)and a few others called him out on this and really getting tired of doing so he ran and was hiding out then he posts this as some excuse...lol guy is an IC "mentor" he actually has that badge under his handle. It was a money grab dirty all around dude is a piece of work some here know that but I'm not going to bring him into it. But yeah true I agree sounds like bs to me too. It's a dirty game guy handled the situation all wrong.
Well that sounds like some of the shitty things I've heard about that guy. What a horrible thing to do- knowingly hand out GG4 clones after your garden is suffering numerous issues. Poor ethics- hopefully he gets tossed like he has on other sites. That is prime example of how shitty issues spread to unknowing folks just looking for a proper cut.

Here is the results back on a few different strains. These are just the results from the test strips. On my first run after testing positive they did testing of the cells to confirm. I don't know if the test strips are 100% accurate but the cell testing is. The lab said they are looking in to developing a strip just for our crop.

I don't believe this is a Pythian problem as none of mine came back positive for that. The thing with the virus is it causes so many symptoms that look like one problem or another and by changing little things you can fix some of them but the real problem is still there. People just end up chasing there tail in circles. I was one of them.

Those pics above have the virus for sure. I see It everywhere the more I look online. It's not always crazy symptoms that look horrible. Some plants will just show some minor leaf twist, but they still have it.

4 years tobacco free for me! Best thing I ever did!
Thanks for posting up the results. Do you have any pix of the plants affected with said tmv?
 
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These are not pics of the duds, these are just some TMV symptoms. The more pics I see and stories I hear the more I am convinced the duds are from the TMV. I think there are countless people that have it and don't even realize it. For a while if you even brought up TMV in some forums people were ready to linch you up, so I quite even trying to talk about it.
 
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Nah seen it in plenty of OG genetics. Many have said TK and other older OGs have done it randomly over the many years. I know i had it happen on TK s1 many many years ago.


Thats kinda where I was going with it though- root zone seems like a reasonable direction to look because I see it happen WAY more in coco/hydro that doesn't support the same root zone biological life. My full duds were in coco, and only soil full duds in flower were plants that had poor root growth at flip and over saturated. Again stress I added to the equation.

Do you keep your moms in soil or coco?

I keep moms in a 50/50 ffof and coco mix...i see it on the moms, the ones in soil usually only have one or two lower branches dud out, anything in coco duds out 100% when it does it.

Found a lab that will do testing. Going to test for the following:

Pythium
TMV
BYDV (which I believe we are seeing - transmitted only by aphids, which are the only pest I have. Couldn't have been BM contamination since I've never had them and isn't pythium because even if the plant is runted the roots can looks absolutely amazing. Hoping to get a pic today showing that. Plus any runted plants automatically become aphid bait)

Also testing for a few systemic strains of fungi to see if anything in the amendments (humisoil, caps bennies, EWC) could be causing negative effects from over-application.



this thread really blew up sorry I haven't been participating as much as I would like. Now that we've got some diagnoses down...has anyone been able to bring plants out of this?
 

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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These are not pics of the duds, these are just some TMV symptoms. The more pics I see and stories I hear the more I am convinced the duds are from the TMV. I think there are countless people that have it and don't even realize it. For a while if you even brought up TMV in some forums people were ready to linch you up, so I quite even trying to talk about it.
Oh shit. I've seen those on some of my plants. Who's the lab? I've seen it on seed starts, so it's doubly concerning, of course.
 
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Oh shit. I've seen those on some of my plants. Who's the lab? I've seen it on seed starts, so it's doubly concerning, of course.
If that's tmv then I think Most of my chem-d and related hybrids have that thing at the bottom of pic one where the tips are gone not all but its there some of them started from seed like grand doggy purple.
 
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Look like this when it starts out? Infection in cloner from water having bacteria or bad cloning gel .. pulled out of it ...took to long in veg so all I View attachment 407160 View attachment 407161 View attachment 407162 got was leaf no bud sites .. treated with dutch gold in cloner no probs after...
I would be willing to bet that if you get your plants tested they would be positive. As the plant starts to grow, it grows faster than the virus can reproduce so people will think hey I fixed the problem. The virus is still there an will still affect yield and quality. Every strain reacts differently to it and shows different symptoms. I am running blue dream now that still does very good while infected. But I still get duds. I will get some pics of those up later good comparison same strain same environment everything just some duds some not.
 
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