Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

[Ricksauce]

I also do not see dudding

 

[GrowGod]

@bulldog aren't those pics from last spring before the mite infestation?

 

[GrowGod]

@Ricksauce so going through my veg room and every plant with dudding signs also have weak to no anchoring roots check it out.

 

[GrowGod]

If you notice the white roots but little to no anchor roots?:speechless:

 

[Shamus]

That's our next step. I've got a culture lab for in-house fungal diagnostics but that's easy compared to this. Meristem tissue culture hasn't been necessary for me until now. It's tough. It'll take a few months to get operational but we've pulled the trigger. I'll update. I still want an ID, but the answer is the same regardless of what virus this is. We're go for live tissue culture.

I've had moderate success with TC. As long as sterile procedure is followed and you have a proper hormone ratio it's not too bad.. So I can culture out the dudding with the plants Im about to get?

I'm not growing right now but when I start back up with new stock from homies what precautions should I take.. All equipment should be cleaned with an anti viral cleaner?

 

[Ricksauce]

That's what led me to look at root zone fungal infections to start. I pulled my hair out looking for a fungus - for maybe two years - something that causes duds. This started because of the absence of anchor roots in clones and plants. So the generic dwarfing and runting of the plants appears to mimic some sort of nutrient lockout. That's why I looked at the xylem and was surprised to find it all clogged with spiky balls - later identified (By AJ, thanks AJ!) as CaC2O4 druse. Now I'm getting into unproven ground. It's possible I'm completely wrong about this. I believe the xylem is impaired. That works both ways - less water/nutrients up, less water/waste down. Makes sense. That would explain the poor root development and overall malaise of the plant. So my model might look like this:

Viral load high -> Plant Immune Response -> Accumulation of CaC2O4 druse -> Xylem impairment -> Duds

There's an equation I'm working with that looks like this, simplified:

If the rate of mitosis in the plant ≥ x(rate of viral reproduction) then the plant is asymptomatic
If the rate of mitosis in the plant ≤ x(rate of viral reproduction) then the plant shows duds

This would explain why excellent growing conditions produce fewer duds. Anything you can do to either impede the reproduction rate of the virus, and/or, increase the rate of cellular reproduction in the plant, increases the plants chance at surviving without symptoms.

I think a possible source of uninfected stock might be farmers who have old mother stock. By my logic that can't exist duds free. Old moms necessarily eventually succumb to the disease. Also old seed stock - say pre 2005 might be a solid source of clean genetics.

Again, this is all conjecture and I'm happy to be corrected if anyone has evidence that disproves anything I say. Bring it up, lets fix this. If it plays, it plays. This is interesting by the way.

 

[Ricksauce]

I've had moderate success with TC. As long as sterile procedure is followed and you have a proper hormone ratio it's not too bad.. So I can culture out the dudding with the plants Im about to get?

I'm not growing right now but when I start back up with new stock from homies what precautions should I take.. All equipment should be cleaned with an anti viral cleaner?

There are so many questions to be answered here, I don't know. I'll be operational in weeks, results will take months. If this is viral, TC is the most viable solution. Heat therapy looks promising, sort of. If you're set up to do that, run it and let us know how you do. It's tough to do it right. Lot of moving parts and it's unforgiving. Antiviral cleaners are only the beginning.

Here's a decent start with some pricing

https://www.msu.edu/course/css/451/LabSkills/Setting Up a Tissue Culture Lab.pdf

 

[Shamus]

i already have a flow hood and a lot of organic chemistry equipment.. like i said ive produced roots and shoots with meristem and callous culture (carrot culture.. roots)

edit:
just read the link, yeah pretty much got all that covered.. i still have a lot of my old hormones i used but if i recall right i think they had a 30-60 day shelf life so ill need more of that but i have plenty of sterile agar and nutrient mix.

the only thing i could see makign things easier is probably a easier fast track way to clean the vessels when done.. (UV sterilization or some equiv)

 

[Ricksauce]

i already have a flow hood and a lot of organic chemistry equipment.. like i said ive produced roots and shoots with meristem and callous culture (carrot culture.. roots)

edit:
just read the link, yeah pretty much got all that covered.. i still have a lot of my old hormones i used but if i recall right i think they had a 30-60 day shelf life so ill need more of that but i have plenty of sterile agar and nutrient mix.

the only thing i could see makign things easier is probably a easier fast track way to clean the vessels when done.. (UV sterilization or some equiv)

Autoclave or pressure cooker

 

[Shamus]

Autoclave or pressure cooker

lol theres the word i was thinking of! (autoclave)

 

[GrowGod]

That's what led me to look at root zone fungal infections to start. I pulled my hair out looking for a fungus - for maybe two years - something that causes duds. This started because of the absence of anchor roots in clones and plants. So the generic dwarfing and runting of the plants appears to mimic some sort of nutrient lockout. That's why I looked at the xylem and was surprised to find it all clogged with spiky balls - later identified (By AJ, thanks AJ!) as CaC2O4 druse. Now I'm getting into unproven ground. It's possible I'm completely wrong about this. I believe the xylem is impaired. That works both ways - less water/nutrients up, less water/waste down. Makes sense. That would explain the poor root development and overall malaise of the plant. So my model might look like this:

Viral load high -> Plant Immune Response -> Accumulation of CaC2O4 druse -> Xylem impairment -> Duds

There's an equation I'm working with that looks like this, simplified:

If the rate of mitosis in the plant ≥ x(rate of viral reproduction) then the plant is asymptomatic
If the rate of mitosis in the plant ≤ x(rate of viral reproduction) then the plant shows duds

This would explain why excellent growing conditions produce fewer duds. Anything you can do to either impede the reproduction rate of the virus, and/or, increase the rate of cellular reproduction in the plant, increases the plants chance at surviving without symptoms.

I think a possible source of uninfected stock might be farmers who have old mother stock. By my logic that can't exist duds free. Old moms necessarily eventually succumb to the disease. Also old seed stock - say pre 2005 might be a solid source of clean genetics.

Again, this is all conjecture and I'm happy to be corrected if anyone has evidence that disproves anything I say. Bring it up, lets fix this. If it plays, it plays. This is interesting by the way.

So your saying the title white bumps are CaC204?

 

[Ricksauce]

No those look like cells differentiating to form callus, then roots, but they hit air and light so they stopped. CaC2O4 crystals are microscopic but not real small. Maybe 12-25μm

 

[Hyperfocus]

Hello Guys,
i registered to the Forum just to participate in Discussion about this Problem.

I can agree on most of Ricksauce Assumptions, im chasing this for 5 years at least.
In my Experience Dudding maybe just the most extreme Form of Sympthoms but still related to the same Problem causing Mosaic Virus like Sympthoms. It mostly affects Genetics with inherent low Vigor, nearly any Indica Dominant Hybrid.

I also agree that most of the lower Vigor is caused by reduced Xylem Function.Red Stems and Stripes are the most common indicator. I havent seen a full green lush growth Plant showing major signs of it. The worse the Redness of the Stems the worse the Vitality of the Plant in Question.

Just noticed this with my new Selection Run from Seeds. Its mostly on the OG style Indica Dominant Phenos and seem to be totally independant of Roothealth.

I eliminated alot of Genetics in the Past for beeing affected by this Group of Sympthoms but even though i work very clean, i seem to catch it on my new Genetics from Seed everytime.

Good to see Poeple realizing theres a Problem going on. Hopefully together we can solve this or at least develop more Strategys to combat this.

 

[Bulldog11]

@bulldog aren't those pics from last spring before the mite infestation?

Yes, those are pics from this last season's spring, before I noticed any mite damage. About a month before. Best pictures I had. I think I might have just had Russet damage, but who knows now. The clones are sitting in the dark right now, waiting for the axe. I have 10g's worth in beans, I might as well start crackin'.

Thanks for the info guys. I would love to contribute to your studies in any way possible. I will be popping around 200-400 beans this coming year. If I find anything dud like, I will take pics, get you guys to confirm, then I will pay for any testing needed. We need to get a data base going.

 

[haole]

If price is not a concern for testing, I think I might be able to help with some ideas. Anyone serious shoot me a pm and we can discuss. This could be a big project and take way more time than anyone has to spare but the nitty gritty of the data may be worth it.

 

[Ricksauce]

If price is not a concern for testing, I think I might be able to help with some ideas. Anyone serious shoot me a pm and we can discuss. This could be a big project and take way more time than anyone has to spare but the nitty gritty of the data may be worth it.

This is pretty much a must-watch for anybody following this thread closely. The Q&A at the end is worth the wait. All of it lands pretty much on the money. 45 minutes well spent.

 

[GrowGod]

This is pretty much a must-watch for anybody following this thread closely. The Q&A at the end is worth the wait. All of it lands pretty much on the money. 45 minutes well spent.

Great video, that's a class I would not be bored at all in.
On a plus note he doesn't mention anything about viruses spreading from plant to plant just by physical contact.
Now my next question is can a fungus gnat or there larvea be a vector for a plant virus?

 

[Bulldog11]

Couple things, the video says "every cut taken from an infected plant may be 100% infected."

"tissue culture is the best stock possible"

"Pollen born virus, but not all virus are pollen born."

"Vectors = White flies, thrips , aphids, mites and nematodes."

In his studies, he found one plant with 8 viruses......Is it possible plants that are clone only and heavily traded, is it possible they have multiple viruses? Like GG #4?

After watching the video, and seeing all the reports out there, I am starting to think the vector is broad and russet mites.

 

[Hyperfocus]

Im in the middle of a new Selection from Seed. Barneys Farm Cookies Kush and Dinafem OG Kush. Some of my Observations:
The more Indica the Phenotype is the more it shows Symptoms, the more Sativa leaning Phenos show more Vitality even before counting in any possible Infections. I noticed Mosaic Virus like Leaf Changes early after topping(that is the Vector allowing the Virus to enter the Plant) the then 3-4 Week old Seedlings which leads me to believe that the Virus is Airborne, landing on the Plants trough Dust that is in my Grow Area.(I disinfect my Razorblades by Burning, never cutting more then one Plant before disinfecting again) Now after that initial Infection the more Indica leaning Phenos will show some reduced Vigor and slight wilting which i attribute to the Xylem not correctly Transporting Water. Normally you would think about a fungal Infection but in this Case it seems the Clogging is actually not from the Base of the Plant but starting from the Top.

This leads me to believe that some Virus is causing an Initial Infection after that depending on Genetic the Plants will start to show the Red Stripes and Stems indicating Clogging of the Xylem. The Clogging itself beeing an Autoimmune Response to the initial Virus Infection. With the limited Amount of Genetic Diversity it maybe very well a Genetic Defect that is causing this. So many Strains have the same Parents in their Lineage and only rarely are new Landraces beeing introduced into Breeding.

I think using UVC Light to kill of Pathogen before taking Cuttings/topping and sealing cutted Stems is something that could Help preserving Genetics.

Can we find someone with a good yielding, normal Vigor OG/GG#4/Kush style Cutting and see whats different in their Garden then in those affected?
I think this could give us more Answers. Sadly i dont have much Access to other Poeples Garden so i cant contribute to this.

 

[Seamaiden]

If the goal is to prevent spread of viruses, USE MILK in your regimen. Clean your tools with it, clean your hands with it, clean the pots, etc with it. I have already provided the paper discussing and supporting this method.