Dudded, Stunted, and Runted plants...

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Hyperfocus

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I wont be spraying Milk on every Surface in my Grow Area, so im more keen to trying the UVC Approach. If Virus can be pollenborne, they problably can be dustborne as well. Unless you have a Serious Facility/Growroom it can be quite hard to eradicate every possible Source for Mosaic Virus Infection. In my Case Air is moving into the Grow Area from the Living Area and i have been a Smoker or were living with one.
The Leafdamage i associate with Mosaic Virus looks exactly as on those Pictures posted by Wisher619, but on his Pictures they also all show major Discoloration of the Stems, especially the Trunk. I think theres a definitive Connection between the very common Mosaic Virus and the Low Vitality and Growth Distortion Syndrom you guys call Dudding.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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Read the paper I provided and learn something about it before being so quick to dismiss it.
 
Hyperfocus

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I wasnt trying to Dismiss your Contribution. Just doesnt seem as practical as an UVC Lamp for me
I read about using Milk to Combat TMV Years ago, but havent read any new Papers on it. I will read through what you provided, thanks for that.
 
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Ricksauce

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I wasnt trying to Dismiss your Contribution. Just doesnt seem as practical as an UVC Lamp for me
I read about using Milk to Combat TMV Years ago, but havent read any new Papers on it. I will read through what you provided, thanks for that.
It's troubling that people growing from seed are also seeing plenty of duds. I don't know if that means it's pollen borne, but that seems unfortunately likely. Hopefully the meristem isn't carrying virus and it's cleanable.

As far as milk goes, even if it worked as a sort of control, it has to be refrigerated, it lasts only 10 days, and the quantity it would take to effectively control a widely spread viral problem is prohibitive as a long term strategy.

Short term - I think growing the best, healthiest plants you can and culling everything with symptoms is crucial. Physan 20 is a good antiviral agent to clean equipment. It can blind you if the concentrated stuff gets in your eyes, so wear a face shield while mixing it.

I believe airborne transmission to be unlikely for a plant virus, except by the pollen vector. Animal viruses can do this because they're often stable in airisolized body fluids and penetrate mucous membranes in the respiratory tract.

This stuff really needs a vector to get past the thick cell walls of plants. That's why bugs are such a problem. I'm at a loss to find a soil that doesn't have fungus gnats or thrip larva. I believe we're passed that though. There's too much out there already to isolate and avoid this with any major genetic. They've almost all crossed paths sometime in the last 8 years, if not resulted from direct duds infected parent stock.

We need an ID. There are a lot of mosaic viruses. There are a lot of other viruses. This could be a combination of several. Identification will tell us whether meristem tissue culture will work. Until then, it's loss mitigation.

Anyone have easy access to a wide array of ELISA plant virus test kits? Links handy?
 
GrowGod

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It's troubling that people growing from seed are also seeing plenty of duds. I don't know if that means it's pollen borne, but that seems unfortunately likely. Hopefully the meristem isn't carrying virus and it's cleanable.

As far as milk goes, even if it worked as a sort of control, it has to be refrigerated, it lasts only 10 days, and the quantity it would take to effectively control a widely spread viral problem is prohibitive as a long term strategy.

Short term - I think growing the best, healthiest plants you can and culling everything with symptoms is crucial. Physan 20 is a good antiviral agent to clean equipment. It can blind you if the concentrated stuff gets in your eyes, so wear a face shield while mixing it.

I believe airborne transmission to be unlikely for a plant virus, except by the pollen vector. Animal viruses can do this because they're often stable in airisolized body fluids and penetrate mucous membranes in the respiratory tract.

This stuff really needs a vector to get past the thick cell walls of plants. That's why bugs are such a problem. I'm at a loss to find a soil that doesn't have fungus gnats or thrip larva. I believe we're passed that though. There's too much out there already to isolate and avoid this with any major genetic. They've almost all crossed paths sometime in the last 8 years, if not resulted from direct duds infected parent stock.

We need an ID. There are a lot of mosaic viruses. There are a lot of other viruses. This could be a combination of several. Identification will tell us whether meristem tissue culture will work. Until then, it's loss mitigation.

Anyone have easy access to a wide array of ELISA plant virus test kits? Links handy?
So are we now thinking it's not direct leaf rub contact to spread the virus? Also a virus in humans like hpv is now prevented with a shot.... Having a huge brain fart and can't remember what this was called lol
 
Ricksauce

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So are we now thinking it's not direct leaf rub contact to spread the virus? Also a virus in humans like hpv is now prevented with a shot.... Having a huge brain fart and can't remember what this was called lol
Vaccinations don't work in plants as far as I know. We needs tests. This will take work to figure out. If it's like strawberries, it's spread already. Everything pretty much has it. If you've seen it, it's there. Plant herpes that only becomes symptomatic if the host is particularly susceptible (GG4) or becomes impaired (stressed plants). They got it clone to clone to clone to clone etc. How it spreads in a room isn't particularly relevant as far as exposure goes. Clean operations will likely reduce viral load however. It's spread unchecked and unrecognized for almost a decade. Maybe longer. Strawberries got wiped out in 2012/13 in an above-ground industry with bona fide nurseries screening things.

Interesting at the end of that video he asks who propagates their own stock and nobody admits it. I wonder if they bootleg strawberry clones
 
GrowGod

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Read the paper I provided and learn something about it before being so quick to dismiss it.
How many times do you have to spray milk? I think the smell of sour milk in the g room would be unbareable :drunk2:
 
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haole

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Great video, that's a class I would not be bored at all in.
On a plus note he doesn't mention anything about viruses spreading from plant to plant just by physical contact.
Now my next question is can a fungus gnat or there larvea be a vector for a plant virus?
While I would suggest nothing is impossible, if memory serves, there are few or no plant viruses associated with fungas gnats.

Couple things, the video says "every cut taken from an infected plant may be 100% infected."

"tissue culture is the best stock possible"

"Pollen born virus, but not all virus are pollen born."

"Vectors = White flies, thrips , aphids, mites and nematodes."

In his studies, he found one plant with 8 viruses......Is it possible plants that are clone only and heavily traded, is it possible they have multiple viruses? Like GG #4?

After watching the video, and seeing all the reports out there, I am starting to think the vector is broad and russet mites.
Upload 2015 12 31 16 7 29

This table is interesting, from copied from Roger Hull. Each virus is different in plant concentration in different parts; it is possible that some viruses could be eliminated in some plants with simpler cloning procedures than the meristematic isolation he is discussing in the video for strawberries, though that method, combined with thermal or cryo treatments, is probably the most effective route for most viruses. Chemical methods are used in conjunction at times too.
Many viruses may not produce symptoms. When virologists perform next generation sequencing on a plant, it is common to find viruses even in healthy plants. Some plants or plant phenotypes may be fully tolerant to a virus. Or it is possible that such virus may later become debilitating if then combined with a second virus. Its pretty f%$%% complicated.

If the goal is to prevent spread of viruses, USE MILK in your regimen. Clean your tools with it, clean your hands with it, clean the pots, etc with it. I have already provided the paper discussing and supporting this method.
Is it the paper with the abstract that ends as follows?
"Skimmed milk was effective, noncaustic and inexpensive for the inactivation of CyMV inoculated on local lesion indicator host plants. However, when systemic host plants (orchids) were used in evaluation, skimmed milk and other chemicals were ineffective for inactivation of CyMV. A 1% concn of NaOH inactivated both CyMV and ORSV, but 10 and 20% conc were phytotoxic."
 
Seamaiden

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@haole -- it's been a few years since I read that whole paper, but I don't recall any mention of orchids, this was solely focused on tomato high tunnel growing, conditions, diseases, prevention and protocol IIRC. What really caught my attention was discussion of the tobamoviruses (? did I spell that correctly?) and the action of milk on those viruses, and how it should be used to help prevent spread.

Let me go through it again. Edit: No, this is an ag handout paper, there is no abstract.

http://www.ct.gov/caes/lib/caes/pdi...h_tunnel_tomato_diseases_11-03-09_handout.pdf

It is *very* interesting to read that simple NaOH can inactivate any virus. For folks who don't make soap at home, it's simple lye, which can be made from wood ashes.

Please refer to the post I've linked immediately below.

Persn'l note: https://www.thcfarmer.com/community...-and-runted-plants.63709/page-29#post-1584752

From another paper I linked in the post above:

"Sanitation

Proper sanitation is critical in the greenhouse or high tunnel environment. Weeds, which may harbor insect pests and some pathogens, and also reduce air movement, should be removed from inside and outside the structure. Diseased tissue should be removed and disposed of. Cull piles are a source of inoculum and waste tissue should be composted or buried. If composting, choose a composting process that facilitates rapid decomposition and maintains the necessary high temperatures throughout the pile – preferably an active process in which the pile is turned frequently. The composting cull pile should be located as far away from the greenhouse or high tunnel as possible.

Surfaces should be cleaned thoroughly after each crop, and tools should be cleaned regularly. Workers should wash hands often – at least at the end of each row – to minimize spread of pathogens, particularly Botrytis grey mold, bacterial canker, TMV, PepMV and TCDVd. In some operations, workers wear gloves that can be regularly dipped into a sanitizing agent. Tomato greenhouse operations routinely use disinfectant-filled footbaths to prevent movement of pathogens on boots and shoes into the greenhouse. Pruning tools and knives are available that dispense a disinfectant solution during cutting and pruning operations, significantly reducing the risk of disease spread. There are a number of disinfectants/sanitizers permitted for use on organic farms. For more information, see the eOrganic articles Approved Chemicals for Use in Organic Postharvest Systems and Can I Use This Input on my Organic Farm?. Unfortunately, there are few independent studies available to guide the selection of a disinfectant or sanitizer for organic food crop production.

Workers who smoke should dip their hands into whole milk, followed by thorough washing in hot soapy water to inactivate tobacco mosaic virus, which may infect tomatoes. Workers should wear coveralls that are laundered often and stored in a smoke-free facility."

How many times do you have to spray milk? I think the smell of sour milk in the g room would be unbareable :drunk2:
It's not spraying milk, it's making a milk solution to wash your hands and tools with, kind of like how you'd use Physan 20 for disinfection purposes. I don't recall the ratio.
 
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GrowGod

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While I would suggest nothing is impossible, if memory serves, there are few or no plant viruses associated with fungas gnats.


View attachment 559447
This table is interesting, from copied from Roger Hull. Each virus is different in plant concentration in different parts; it is possible that some viruses could be eliminated in some plants with simpler cloning procedures than the meristematic isolation he is discussing in the video for strawberries, though that method, combined with thermal or cryo treatments, is probably the most effective route for most viruses. Chemical methods are used in conjunction at times too.
Many viruses may not produce symptoms. When virologists perform next generation sequencing on a plant, it is common to find viruses even in healthy plants. Some plants or plant phenotypes may be fully tolerant to a virus. Or it is possible that such virus may later become debilitating if then combined with a second virus. Its pretty f%$%% complicated.

Is it the paper with the abstract that ends as follows?
"Skimmed milk was effective, noncaustic and inexpensive for the inactivation of CyMV inoculated on local lesion indicator host plants. However, when systemic host plants (orchids) were used in evaluation, skimmed milk and other chemicals were ineffective for inactivation of CyMV. A 1% concn of NaOH inactivated both CyMV and ORSV, but 10 and 20% conc were phytotoxic."
Well somehow someway my strains have the same symptoms as the syrsins I brought in last summer. And the only pests I have is Fungus gnats. Unless it can be transmitted just by touch then I'm clueless.
 
mittenmedgrow

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One thing I do that I could see causing me to spread problems is when I take clones. I use the same pair of scissors and cup of water on all the plants. I'll cut a half dozen off a plant throw them in a cup of water then go put them in the rooter. Then use the same snips and cup to continue to the other strains.
 
GrowGod

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One thing I do that I could see causing me to spread problems is when I take clones. I use the same pair of scissors and cup of water on all the plants. I'll cut a half dozen off a plant throw them in a cup of water then go put them in the rooter. Then use the same snips and cup to continue to the other strains.
If FG and being side by side doesn't spread the virus then this would be the only way I spread it to my plants. Because I did cut clones with the infected strains as we as mine.
 
mittenmedgrow

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Another thing I do is go around and snip out bottoms without sterilization between plants. I've never had a problem doing this but if some type of virus is introduced into my garden I could see it spreading fast
 
GrowGod

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Another thing I do is go around and snip out bottoms without sterilization between plants. I've never had a problem doing this but if some type of virus is introduced into my garden I could see it spreading fast
Very good point. I'm actually reveging all my strains from none infected fully bloomed plants I just chopped. I left a few flowers on each for the reveging process. Will update In my thread how it goes
 
Ricksauce

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We're there ever any duds in the genetics you're reveging? Was there even one from that stock that you culled or set aside before you flowered it? Or do you believe it's never had a dud? What strain?
 
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haole

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Well somehow someway my strains have the same symptoms as the syrsins I brought in last summer. And the only pests I have is Fungus gnats. Unless it can be transmitted just by touch then I'm clueless.

While I personally still don't know if anyone in this thread has a virus, viroid, phytoplasma, or other pathogenic microorganism that is producing the symptoms being observed, there are in fact many viruses or other pathogens that can be transmitted by plants touching each other, in other words, "mechanically transmittable." For many viruses, that is the only known method of spreading. The common practice in the field is to take a crude sap extraction from one plant and apply it to another plant with some abrasive dust. Many common plants are used for this purpose and are known as indicator plants and this can be performed as part of a local lesion assay. In fact, considering the resources of those in this thread, a local lesion assay with an herbaceous common plant like Nicotiana benthamiana would be an intelligent next step. However, some buffering etc of the sap extract is usually required.

Many other viruses etc cannot be spread that way though.
 
GrowGod

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We're there ever any duds in the genetics you're reveging? Was there even one from that stock that you culled or set aside before you flowered it? Or do you believe it's never had a dud? What strain?
No absolutely not no duds at all, these clones were cut before I ever tried to cut the clones from duds.
Allmy strains including ghost og bubblegum,Chemdog #4, original d, wookies, sk1 98 bubba, sage never showed the signs of dudding and I own these for 8+ years.
Then after receiving cuts from a friend white widow, immortal diesel, gsc,Death Star,uk cheese, gdp, there was a couple others as well. All were showing signs of duds except gsc cheese and gdp.As they got older I noticed the duds, eventually I tookcyts of these along with my strains.
Now my flower room has duds of my bubblegum fully dudded, ghost og partially dudded, sk1 fully dudded and a wookies with just one branch dudded.
I run drain to waist coco so there would be no way the virus or whatever it is was spread my water contamination. Possible nematodes with the single branch duds I have in flower.
So I had no duds till I started taking cuts of the duds.
 
GrowGod

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@Seamaiden is it not possible to clean your hands tools etc with a soap, alcohol, or bleach solution?
 
Seamaiden

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You can, but if you look into it those products don't do to the virus what milk does. IIRC, these sanitizers/sterilizers don't actually kill the virus. Milk is pretty amazing stuff. Don't leave out quaternary ammonium compounds, those are used in many areas for sanitizing as well, from beauty (hair & nail tools are sanitized in 'quats') to veterinary to aquatic to medical to agriculture, but usually in a GH if I recollect. However, that said, if I recollect, it was found that quats does not 'kill' this group of viruses or inactivate them the same way milk does.
 
leadsled

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Think about this:
Pests can vector other things other than viruses.

So many variables that can cause the same symptoms.
Dowh


For example:
Ditylenchus dipsaci is a pathogenic nematode.

bacterial wilt and fusarium wilt
are two pathogens vectored by nematodes. both look very similar to "duds". Please forgive me for using the TERM DUDS.


Bacterial Wilt

BW-plant-small.jpg

Bact_Wilt-mod-small.jpg


Symptoms:


    • Severely infected plants will appear yellow-green, stunted, and have spindly stems and small, deformed leaflets.
    • In early stages of disease development, plants are often scattered throughout a field and symptoms include mild cupping, curling and mottling of leaves.
    • Infected plants are often most easily noticed in re-growth after the first cut.
    • Cross sections of the upper portion of infected roots have a yellowish-brown discoloration in the vascular system, and the discoloration may spread across the entire root as disease severity increases.
Pathogen Involved:


    • Clavibacter michiganense subsp.insidiosum (a bacterial pathogen)
    • This pathogen survives in plant residue in the soil.
    • The bacteria infect plants through wounds in the roots and crown or through the cut ends of newly mowed stems.
    • Can can survive and be spread in contaminated seed.
Time of Occurrence:


    • Plants are very susceptible during harvest.
    • Disease increases as alfalfa stands age, and disease typically first seen in the second or third year of a stand.
Conditions Favoring Disease:


    • Plants wounded by physical damage.
    • Disease incidence and severity is increased by the interaction of the bacterial wilt pathogen and the northern root-knot nematode and the stem nematode.
Disease Management:


    • Choose and plant highly resistant alfalfa cultivars.
    • Rotate fields out of alfalfa for three or more years.
    • Avoid mowing plants when leaves and stems are wet.
    • Young stands should be harvested before older stands if the same harvesting equipment is used.



Fusarium Wilt

Fus-wilt-small.jpg





Symptoms:
  • When disease begins, wilting may occur but plants often recover their stature overnight.
  • Stems and leaves of only one side of a plant may initially discolor or wilt.
  • The leaves and stems develop chlorois and turn light in color.
  • As the disease progresses the entire plant may wilt, develop a yellow or reddish tint, and die after several months.
  • Dark brown specks develop near the center of the root and often increase to form a complete or partial circle; this diagnostic symptom is best seen by cutting cross-sections of upper part of the root.
  • Infected plants usually occur in scattered patches in a field

Pathogen Involved:
  • Fusarium oxysporum f. sp. medicaginis (a fungus)
  • The fungus infects through wounds in roots.
  • Survives in soil and infested plant debris

Time of Occurrence:

  • All season
  • Most common in stands two or more years old
Conditions Favoring Disease:
  • Warm soil temperatures favor this disease, and is not favored by high soil moisture.
  • Root knot nematode injury can increase severity of Fusarium wilt.

Disease Management:

  • Use cultivars with resistance to Fusarium wilt and to the root knot nematode

Ok you got a weak and sick plant.
Natural selection is in effect. Insects are natures garbage collectors and disease are the clean up crew.
The pest attacks the plant that had a nutritional problem to start.
Then vectors a pathogen and/or potentially a virus.

Then the plant get treated with a pesticide and becomes even more weak and sick.


So many variables that could have caused the problem.
Then there is a very very broad term. "duds" to define what COULD be caused by so many different variable. TO say it is one thing is not smart.


duds could be a virus
duds could be a pathogen
duds could be a pest problem that then cause both of the above.


Call the above terms all duds does everyone an injustice.

Points out the obvious fact that a majority of the cannabis growing community is doing some serious "broscience" and it is making the problem worse.

Same symptoms could be caused by a few different problems.

Yes lumping all the different potential problems into one term is not a good idea.


Make sense??

I am sure professionals from plant pathology, botany and plant science are ready to jump on board with newest scientific definition on the interwebs.

Dud. which could mean various problems that have a real name. Good luck on figuring that out!

dud
dəd/
informal
noun
noun: dud; plural noun: duds
  1. 1.
    a thing that fails to work properly or is otherwise unsatisfactory or worthless.
    "a high-grade collection, not a dud in the lot"
    • an ineffectual person.
      "a complete dud, incapable of even hitting the ball"
      synonyms: failure, flop, letdown, disappointment, loss-maker;More
      informalwashout, lemon, no-hoper, nonstarter, dead loss, clunker
      "their new product is a dud"
      antonyms: success
  2. 2.
    clothes.
    "buy yourself some new duds"
adjective
adjective: dud
  1. 1.
    not working or meeting standards; faulty.
    "a dud ignition switch"
    synonyms: defective, faulty, unsound, inoperative, broken, malfunctioning;More
    informalbust, busted, kaput, conked out
    "a dud typewriter"
    antonyms: sound
    • counterfeit.
      "charged with issuing dud checks"
      synonyms: counterfeit, fraudulent, forged, fake, faked, false, bogus;More
      invalid, worthless;
      informalphony
      "a dud $50 bill"
      antonyms: genuine
Origin
Middle English (in the sense ‘item of clothing’): of unknown origin.
Translate dud to
Use over time for: dud


Good luck on that.

Does not get into the problem of the lack of details and assumptions. When you assume you make an ass out of u and me.

With all due respect. Step it up! Big business is down to take over and the ag professionals they use would not call any of these problems "DUDS"

Making it easy to take over when the sheeple are dudding out making new terms that put the cannabis community farther behind.

 
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