DutchLog01 - (trying) organic Hydro aka the problem SoG (Coco High-Freq-Fert - 10x5 LED)

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Dr.Dutch

Dr.Dutch

64
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Ok guys, GPT is f****** next level s***.
Just asked about the trichoderma strains in the colonizeAG. Similar effects as the bacillus sp.
Short in quote, the amazing stuff comes after that

Trichoderma harzianum and Trichoderma atroviride are also known to colonize plant surfaces and can be used as biocontrol agents against various plant pathogens.

Trichoderma harzianum is known to produce various metabolites that can inhibit the growth of plant pathogens such as Rhizoctonia solani, Fusarium oxysporum, and Botrytis cinerea. It can also promote plant growth by enhancing nutrient uptake and inducing systemic resistance in plants.

Trichoderma atroviride has also been shown to have antagonistic activity against various plant pathogens, including Botrytis cinerea, Phytophthora parasitica, and Rhizoctonia solani. Additionally, it can stimulate plant growth by producing various plant growth-promoting substances such as indole acetic acid (IAA) and gibberellins.

There is limited research available specifically on the use of Trichoderma species for cannabis cultivation. However, some studies have shown that Trichoderma species can enhance cannabis plant growth and yield, as well as protect them from certain foliar pathogens.

Trichoderma harzianum:
Positive effects for plant growth: Enhances nutrient uptake and availability in the soil, leading to increased growth and development of plants. Induces systemic resistance in plants, thereby reducing their susceptibility to pathogenic attacks.

Antipathogenic effects: Inhibits the growth of plant pathogens such as Rhizoctonia solani, Fusarium oxysporum, and Botrytis cinerea.

Trichoderma atroviride:
Positive effects for plant growth: Produces plant growth-promoting substances such as indole acetic acid (IAA) and gibberellins, which promote plant growth and development. Enhances nutrient uptake and availability in the soil, leading to increased growth and development of plants.

Antipathogenic effects: Inhibits the growth of plant pathogens such as Botrytis cinerea, Phytophthora parasitica, and Rhizoctonia solani.

And now we ask GPT how we can use all this information for our problem:

What would be the best strategy to use the discussed products against b. cinerea for a crob with a flowering time of two months, where the risk of infection is the greatest in the last two weeks?

For a crop with a flowering time of two months where the risk of infection is the greatest in the last two weeks, the best strategy would be to use a combination of Bacillus amyloliquefaciens and Trichoderma harzianum or Trichoderma atroviride.

Here are some possible steps to follow:


  1. Start with a clean growing environment: Clean and disinfect the growing area, equipment, and tools before planting.
  2. Use a preventive approach: Apply Bacillus amyloliquefaciens and Trichoderma harzianum or Trichoderma atroviride as a foliar spray early in the crop cycle, at least 2-3 times during the vegetative phase. This will establish a healthy microbial population on the leaves and soil surface, and enhance plant growth and nutrient uptake.
  3. Increase the frequency of foliar sprays: As the risk of infection increases in the last two weeks of the crop cycle, increase the frequency of foliar sprays to at least once a week to maintain the beneficial microbial population and prevent pathogenic infection.
  4. Monitor plant health regularly: Keep an eye on the health of the plants and look for any signs of infection. If any signs of infection are detected, take immediate action by applying Bacillus amyloliquefaciens and Trichoderma harzianum or Trichoderma atroviride more frequently, or use a specific fungicide if necessary.
  5. Harvest the crop at the right time: Harvest the crop at the right time to prevent over-ripening and reduce the risk of pathogenic infection.
It's important to note that the effectiveness of these strategies may vary depending on the specific growing conditions and the severity of the infection. Therefore, it's always a good idea to consult with a plant pathologist or an experienced grower for tailored recommendations
 
ReservoirDog

ReservoirDog

13
3
I am only a few pages in so far so I need to ask a question. Now, I apologize, i do, for the protocol deviation. But I must ask, is this a flavour quest? Or something else, at least back in the first months, at my point in the story? I am thrilled by what it appears I'm about to read. Please excuse my interruption, best wishes. A fan.
 
Dr.Dutch

Dr.Dutch

64
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I am only a few pages in so far so I need to ask a question. Now, I apologize, i do, for the protocol deviation. But I must ask, is this a flavour quest? Or something else, at least back in the first months, at my point in the story? I am thrilled by what it appears I'm about to read. Please excuse my interruption
No apology needed. We're already almost done here, and I'm happy when others show interest. The draft for the next round is already started, and questions are welcome here.
Currently, I'm basically trying to remove all the bro-science from my knowledge, which has become significantly easier with GPT. In the end, the goal is to have the healthiest plants possible, which should actually have a positive effect on the taste.
best wishes. A fan.
Thank you, much appreciated 🙂
 
ReservoirDog

ReservoirDog

13
3
No apology needed. We're already almost done here, and I'm happy when others show interest. The draft for the next round is already started, and questions are welcome here.
Currently, I'm basically trying to remove all the bro-science from my knowledge, which has become significantly easier with GPT. In the end, the goal is to have the healthiest plants possible, which should actually have a positive effect on the taste.

Thank you, much appreciated 🙂
Ah, a very noble goal. From bro-minds to black-box.... many people will not appreciate just how many windmills you are engaging all at once, but I dig your kung fu. Here's an apple for your horse, Rocinante. Best,
 
Dr.Dutch

Dr.Dutch

64
18
@ReservoirDog Fighting windmills is a sure way not to get bored. And with your writing style, you're always welcome to enrich my report, love it ☺️

Let's continue with some information and planning for the next run. @BeakerBombs , credit to you again for the information from earlier. Regarding the MOs: Our considerations were already correct back then. With GPT, I had a detailed "conversation" about chitosan, harpin protein, and salicylic acid and how to apply them together. It's very interesting and shows how AI can be used as an assistant. The information about salicylic acid, that it should only be applied during the vegetative phase and at the end of flowering, is new. I don't think you had considered that back then. But otherwise, the information agrees well with what you provided before 🙂

Can we use a product containing all the here discussed bacillus and Trichoderma sp.? Could this have a lowering effect against b. cinerea, or could we suggest more beneficial effects, considering that all these microbes have different beneficial effects for plant grow and against pathogens?

It is possible to use a product containing multiple strains of Bacillus and Trichoderma species. In fact, some commercially available products already contain a blend of these beneficial microbes. Combining different strains of these bacteria and fungi can provide a wider range of beneficial effects for plant growth and protection against pathogens.
However, it is important to note that the effectiveness of a microbial product against a specific pathogen may depend on the concentrations and ratios of the strains present in the product. Moreover, the application method and timing also play a crucial role in the success of microbial products. Therefore, it is always recommended to follow the instructions provided by the manufacturer and conduct proper testing and monitoring to evaluate the efficacy of the product against the target pathogen.
So when we have to fight b. cinarea in the last two weeks, i think it would be best to apply the first week a broadband spectrum product and the last weeks only one against the pathogen. Does this make sense?

It could make sense to use a broad-spectrum microbial product in the first week of the flowering stage to promote plant growth and overall plant health. This could help the plant better withstand any potential pathogen attack during the flowering stage.
However, it may not be necessary to switch to a single product against B. cinerea in the last two weeks if the broad-spectrum product contains strains that are also effective against B. cinerea. Instead, you could continue using the broad-spectrum product and monitor the plant closely for any signs of B. cinerea infection. If signs of infection do appear, you could consider adding a single product specifically targeted against B. cinerea.
Ultimately, the best approach will depend on the specific microbial products being used, the concentrations and ratios of the strains present in the product, and the timing and method of application. It's always a good idea to consult with the manufacturer or a plant health specialist for tailored recommendations.
This part is great. I didn't expect to get such a response to my rather ironic comment 😊
But you are my "plant health specialist" :)

Thank you! I'm glad to help. In that case, I would recommend looking for a microbial product that contains a combination of strains that are effective against a broad range of plant pathogens, including B. cinerea. This could potentially provide a more comprehensive protection against pathogen attack during the entire flowering stage.
However, it's important to ensure that the microbial product is compatible with your specific crop and growing conditions. It's also important to follow the manufacturer's instructions for application rate, timing, and method to ensure the best results.
I have a question regarding some products which i think we can add to our plan. Harpine protein, chitosan oligosaccharide and salicylic acid. Are there side effects known which can occur if we mix these products? And can we mix them with our bacillus and Trichoderma products without any risks?

Harpin protein, chitosan oligosaccharide, and salicylic acid are all natural plant-based products commonly used to enhance plant growth and resistance against pathogens. While they are generally considered safe and non-toxic, it is important to note that mixing different products together can potentially lead to unforeseen interactions and effects.
Harpin protein, for example, can induce systemic acquired resistance in plants, making them more resistant to a range of pathogens. Chitosan oligosaccharide has also been shown to have antifungal properties and can stimulate plant growth. Salicylic acid is a natural plant hormone that can induce systemic acquired resistance and is commonly used to enhance plant defenses against pathogens.
When it comes to mixing these products with Bacillus and Trichoderma products, it is important to note that they can have different modes of action and may not necessarily interact with each other negatively. However, it is always recommended to conduct compatibility tests before mixing different products to ensure there are no adverse effects.
Additionally, it is important to carefully follow the instructions provided with each product and to avoid overuse or misuse, as this can potentially lead to negative effects such as phytotoxicity.
How can we increase the solubility of salicylic acid in a nutrient solution for foliar application? Does Tween20 increase the solubility?

Salicylic acid has low solubility in water and can be difficult to dissolve in a nutrient solution. Adding surfactants such as Tween 20 can increase the solubility of salicylic acid in water-based solutions. Tween 20 is a nonionic surfactant that can help improve the wetting and spreading properties of a solution, allowing it to more effectively coat and penetrate plant surfaces.
To increase the solubility of salicylic acid in a nutrient solution for foliar application, you can try adding Tween 20 to the solution. Typically, Tween 20 is added at a concentration of 0.01-0.1% (v/v) to the nutrient solution containing salicylic acid. However, it is important to note that adding too much Tween 20 can have phytotoxic effects on the plants. It is always recommended to conduct a small-scale test before applying a new solution to a larger crop.
Ok. How often should we apply these three products?

The application frequency for harpin protein, chitosan oligosaccharide, and salicylic acid will depend on the specific product formulation and the stage of plant growth. It's important to follow the manufacturer's instructions for each product.
As for the bacillus and Trichoderma products, it's important to follow the application instructions provided by the manufacturer as well. The frequency of application may vary depending on the specific product and the stage of plant growth. In general, it's common to apply these types of products every 1-2 weeks throughout the growth cycle of the plant. However, it's important to carefully read the label of each product and follow the recommended application frequency.
Remember that you are my "plant health specialist". How often should we apply these products when we want to fight b. cinerea?

As a plant health specialist, I would recommend applying these products based on their specific modes of action and their recommended application rates.
Harpin protein: This product should be applied as a foliar spray every 7-14 days starting from the vegetative stage of the plant up to the flowering stage.
Chitosan oligosaccharide: This product can be applied as a foliar spray every 7-14 days starting from the vegetative stage of the plant up to the flowering stage.
Salicylic acid: This product can be applied as a foliar spray every 7-10 days, starting from the vegetative stage of the plant up to the flowering stage.
It's important to note that these products should be applied according to the manufacturer's recommended rates and guidelines. Additionally, it's always a good idea to perform a small-scale test application on a few plants before applying to the entire crop to ensure there are no negative effects.
So the bacillus and trichoderma strains every 14 days and these products every 7-10 day?

Yes, that would be a good approach. Applying the Bacillus and Trichoderma strains every 14 days would provide consistent and long-term protection against a range of potential pathogens, while the Harpine protein, chitosan oligosaccharide, and salicylic acid can be applied every 7-10 days specifically to target Botrytis cinerea during the period of highest risk.
Does it make sense to apply some of the three products earlier because of some plant grow promoting effects? Tell me in detail which product is only needed at high risk of b. cinerea infection and which we could apply earlier for beneficial effects. List the beneficial effects

Yes, it does make sense to apply some of the products earlier to benefit from their plant growth-promoting effects. Here is a breakdown of the products and their beneficial effects:

  • Harpine protein: This product can induce systemic resistance in plants, which means that it helps the plants defend against a range of pathogens, including B. cinerea. Harpine protein can also increase photosynthesis rates and improve plant growth. It can be applied every 7-10 days throughout the growing season to provide continual plant protection and growth benefits.
  • Chitosan oligosaccharide: This product has been shown to improve plant growth and yield by stimulating plant metabolism and enhancing nutrient uptake. Chitosan oligosaccharide can also induce systemic resistance to a range of plant pathogens, including B. cinerea. It can be applied every 7-10 days throughout the growing season to provide continual plant growth and protection benefits.
  • Salicylic acid: This product is primarily used to control B. cinerea infection, and it is most effective when applied during the period of highest risk (typically the last 2 weeks of flowering). However, salicylic acid also has plant growth-promoting effects, including improving root development, increasing plant biomass, and enhancing photosynthesis. Salicylic acid can be applied every 7-10 days during the last 2 weeks of flowering to control B. cinerea and promote plant growth.
Based on this information, the Harpine protein and Chitosan oligosaccharide can be applied earlier in the growth cycle to promote plant growth and provide systemic protection against a range of pathogens. They can be applied every 7-10 days throughout the growing season. Salicylic acid, on the other hand, should be applied during the period of highest risk (the last 2 weeks of flowering) to control B. cinerea infection.
Please explain your recommendation as to why salicylic acid should not be applied until the last two weeks, despite positive effects on plant growth. It sounds like there are reasons for this that you have not given me

Salicylic acid is known to be involved in the systemic acquired resistance (SAR) response in plants. SAR is a process by which plants can enhance their resistance to pathogens after being exposed to certain stimuli, such as an infection or exposure to a beneficial microbe. When a plant is treated with salicylic acid, it can induce the SAR response, which can lead to the production of pathogenesis-related (PR) proteins and other defense mechanisms that can help protect the plant against pathogens.
However, it is also known that applying salicylic acid too early or in excessive amounts can have negative effects on plant growth and development. This is because salicylic acid can also inhibit plant growth and photosynthesis, which can reduce yield and quality. Therefore, it is important to use salicylic acid judiciously and only when necessary to avoid negative effects on plant growth.
In the case of Botrytis cinerea, the highest risk of infection occurs in the last two weeks of the flowering phase. Therefore, it is recommended to apply salicylic acid at this stage to boost the plant's defense mechanisms against the pathogen. However, if applied earlier in the growing cycle, it may not provide any additional benefit in terms of disease control, and may even have negative effects on plant growth.

Please take the following numbers with at least one grain of salt. There the AI still has frequent problems, but can be checked well with Bing. You can see it at the very end when it recommends 200 to 500ppm chitosan. I still have to check the numbers for salicylic acid, for chitosan the Bing search is at the end.
Please give me dosages for the use of salicylic acid for foliar application (against b. cinerea) and for general use in nutrient solution

Dosages for the use of salicylic acid can vary depending on the specific product and formulation. It is important to always follow the instructions on the label and not exceed the recommended dosage.
For foliar application against B. cinerea, salicylic acid can be applied at a concentration of 1-2 mM, which is equivalent to 0.138-0.276 g/L or 138-276 mg/L. It is recommended to apply it every 7-10 days during the period of highest risk of infection.
For general use in nutrient solution, salicylic acid can be added at a concentration of 0.5-1 mM, which is equivalent to 0.069-0.138 g/L or 69-138 mg/L. It is recommended to apply it once a week or every other week, depending on the specific product and the plant's growth stage. However, it is important to note that salicylic acid can also have phytotoxic effects if applied at too high a concentration, so it is best to start with a lower concentration and gradually increase if needed.
Thank you! Do you know other products beside those three that have a better effect against b. cinerea and could be considered to be used?

There are many products available that have shown efficacy against B. cinerea, including both chemical and biological control agents. Here are a few examples:
  • Bacillus amyloliquefaciens
  • Bacillus subtilis
  • Streptomyces spp.
  • Trichoderma harzianum
  • Ulocladium oudemansii
  • Ampelomyces quisqualis
However, it's important to note that the effectiveness of these products can vary depending on the specific strain, formulation, and application method. Additionally, it's important to consider the potential impact of these products on non-target organisms and the environment, as well as any regulatory requirements for their use. It's always best to consult with a local plant health specialist or regulatory agency for specific recommendations on control options for your particular situation.

So you know no alternatives for harpin protein, chitosan and salicylic acid? That should mean that we have found a very good formulation for fighting b. cinerea only with biological control agents? Explain why a combination of b. sp., Trichoderma harzianum, harpin protein and chitosan should be a effective combination and why we should add salicylic acid only the last two weeks. Than write a plan for 8 weeks, where we add all at day 0 than every week harpin and chitosan, every two weeks the b. sp. and trichoderma and from week 6 on the salicylic acid
The combination of Bacillus sp., Trichoderma harzianum, harpin protein, and chitosan is an effective approach to control Botrytis cinerea. Bacillus sp. and Trichoderma harzianum are well-known biocontrol agents that can colonize the plant surface and induce systemic resistance in plants against a range of pathogens, including B. cinerea. Harpin protein and chitosan are plant defense elicitors that can activate the plant immune system, inducing the production of defense compounds and enhancing resistance against pathogens. Salicylic acid is also a plant defense elicitor that can activate the plant immune system, but it should be applied only during the last two weeks of the crop cycle to avoid negative effects on plant growth.
The plan for 8 weeks, where we add all products at day 0, could be as follows:

  • Day 0: Apply a mixture of Bacillus sp. and Trichoderma harzianum to the plants. Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants.
  • Week 1: Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants.
  • Week 2: Apply Bacillus sp. and Trichoderma harzianum to the plants. Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants.
  • Week 3: Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants.
  • Week 4: Apply Bacillus sp. and Trichoderma harzianum to the plants. Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants.
  • Week 5: Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants.
  • Week 6: Apply Bacillus sp. and Trichoderma harzianum to the plants. Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants. Start applying salicylic acid to the plants.
  • Week 7: Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants. Continue applying salicylic acid to the plants.
  • Week 8: Apply Bacillus sp. and Trichoderma harzianum to the plants. Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants. Continue applying salicylic acid to the plants. Cease application of all products 2-3 days before harvest.
[nice 😊 ]

Which dosage of chitosan oligosaccharide for foliar application is recommended for this plan?

For foliar application, the recommended dosage of chitosan oligosaccharide is typically around 200-500 ppm (parts per million) for most crops. However, the exact dosage may vary depending on the specific plant species and the severity of the infection. It is best to consult the product label or contact the manufacturer for specific dosage recommendations.
B Chito


Some additional info a about the safeness of trichoderma. Some time ago I red something about possible allergic reactions, but doesn't seam to be a problem.

Let's get back to trichoderma for foliar application. Are you aware of any reasons not to use it on a food crop?

Trichoderma species are considered safe for use in agriculture and have been widely used as biocontrol agents for various plant diseases on food crops. Trichoderma strains are commonly used as biopesticides in organic farming, and have been found to be effective against many plant diseases while also promoting plant growth and development. However, it is important to note that different strains of Trichoderma may have different properties, and it is always recommended to follow label instructions and guidelines for their safe and effective use. Additionally, it is important to follow any specific regulations and guidelines regarding the use of biopesticides on food crops in your specific region or country.


Is information known on allergic reactions caused by certain strains of Trichoderma?

There is limited information available on allergic reactions caused by Trichoderma strains. However, some studies have reported cases of hypersensitivity pneumonitis (HP) and allergic bronchopulmonary aspergillosis (ABPA) caused by Trichoderma species, especially in people with compromised immune systems. These conditions are relatively rare and occur mainly in occupational settings, such as in agriculture, horticulture, and composting industries, where workers are exposed to high levels of fungal spores. In general, Trichoderma strains used in biocontrol products are considered safe for humans and the environment, and their use is regulated by authorities to ensure their safety. It is important to follow the label instructions and safety precautions when handling and applying biocontrol products containing Trichoderma strains.
 
B

BeakerBombs

4
3
We talked about that.
Yes, salicylic acid for Veg and Late Flower.
I'll tell you the same thing I told you about Manics. GPT is nice. But not the holy grail. Think about it. A few months ago, Manix was your holy grail and only source.
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

Staff
Supporter
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Dutch, this ChatGPT will basically tell you anything if you just ask it as long enough until you get your answers. Look at what it told you about SA: First, it says it can be used from veg up to late flower. Then it states, for best botrytis prevention, it should be used for the last 2 weeks. Then (I think you missed this condition) you ask why it shouldn't applied before the last 2 weeks and it now gives some borderline idiotic answers like it could decrease photosynthesis blablabla. When in fact it wrote it could increase photosynthesis just the answer before. Now what?
And how about just not overapplying it? I mean, any kind of overapplication being it nutes/salts or chelates can impose stress and cause the plants' internal functionality to suffer, that obvious.

Here is a study about SA usage with Cannabis:
Improvement of the antioxidant activity, phytochemicals, and cannabinoid compounds of Cannabis sativa by salicylic acid elicitor

The study proves that both a low and high dose of SA increases Cannabinoids, photosynthesis amongst other stuff.
So the way the AI wrote is misleading and contradictory. Have you reviewed the data from where it did take this information?

Plus they did do apply this (one trial) at the beginning of the onset of flowerbuilding.

Thirdly, sometimes mold appears even way before the last 2 weeks, and when it appears you can be sure the plant had it already a week before.
 
Dr.Dutch

Dr.Dutch

64
18
We talked about that.
Yes, salicylic acid for Veg and Late Flower.
I'll tell you the same thing I told you about Manics. GPT is nice. But not the holy grail. Think about it. A few months ago, Manix was your holy grail and only source.
Alright, then that matches completely with what GPT has provided. I was already in week four when I discussed these things with you and ordered the products. It's possible that I didn't remember it back then.
Holy Grail? Well, you could have also noticed that there is all kinds of bro science in there 😉
But it was still better than many other websites. Beaker, I'll send you an invitation on forum.canna... We've set up the discussion group over there now.

Dutch, this ChatGPT will basically tell you anything if you just ask it as long enough until you get your answers. Look at what it told you about SA: First, it says it can be used from veg up to late flower. Then it states, for best botrytis prevention, it should be used for the last 2 weeks.
I asked the AI to create a plan for me without vegetation for eight weeks. It's my mistake that I told it to start with SA in week six, which is one week too early. The fact that the AI mentioned that SA should only be given in veg and late flower, as Beaker said, is something it told me on its own.

The study proves that both a low and high dose of SA increases Cannabinoids, photosynthesis amongst other stuff.
So the way the AI wrote is misleading and contradictory. Have you reviewed the data from where it did take this information?
Your study is interesting, but it doesn't investigate any potential negative effects. I couldn't find any measurements of biomass or anything like that when reading the headlines. It would be even more interesting if all important factors were examined.
 
Dr.Dutch

Dr.Dutch

64
18
But Beaker: GPT with two layers feels a bit like the holy grail, ain't disagree with you in this point 😉
From the sources below I can't find one, there is probably once again an error in the first layer. The neural network still gets things wrong from time to time
SA4


SA5


We should handle it like other strong PGRs I would say.
 
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Dr.Dutch

Dr.Dutch

64
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"Human" reworked plan, this is how we'll do it (if i don't change the plan, we'll see^^). Day -10 was four days ago. New log will be opened soon.
  • Day -10: Apply a mixture of Bacillus sp. to the plants
  • Day 0: Apply a mixture of Bacillus sp. and Trichoderma harzianum to the plants. Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants.
  • Day 7: Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants.
  • Day 14: Apply Bacillus sp. and Trichoderma harzianum to the plants. Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants.
  • Day 21: Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants.
  • Day 28: Apply Bacillus sp. and Trichoderma harzianum to the plants. Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants.
  • Day 35: Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants.
  • Day 42: Apply B. amyloliquefaciens and Trichoderma harzianum to the plants. Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants. Start applying salicylic acid to the plants.
  • Day 49: Apply B. amyloliquefaciens and Trichoderma harzianum to the plants. Apply harpin protein and chitosan to the plants. Continue applying salicylic acid to the plants. Cease application of all products 2-3 days before harvest.
  • Day 56 to 63: Harvest
 
Dr.Dutch

Dr.Dutch

64
18
Let's briefly go back to the practical side of things: I'm leaving out the results (videos, pictures, logs) from the last experiments with Mos. However, it is clear that the BioPak is very effective, causing a significant bacterial bloom in the tanks every time, just like in the previous experiments with food for the MOs.
As previously announced, an experiment was set up without MOs to compare the stable nutrient solution with fulvic and MOs from the beginning.

Tank(T90) with 75l nutrient solution prepared only with fulvic and inorganic fertilizers.

10 liters of this solution were then filled into two separate buckets, each containing 7.5 liters. The additives were mixed in 100ml of RO water, with an additional 100ml of water added without any additives in B1.

B1. Control
B2. + Tween20 (100ppm)
B3. + Tween20 (100ppm) & BioPak (10mg/l)

The behavior in T90 and B1 was identical, except for a slightly faster rise in pH in the first few hours. Tween20 caused a pH decrease in both buckets after a few days, which then increased again, independent of the MOs. B3 showed flocculation after four days, which mainly settled at the pump in the end. B2 looked clear, but has not been emptied yet. An update will follow.
20230410 163316   Kopie


1st Video from timestamp 021300 after 68h, 2nd after ~11 days​


Very much stuff been in the pump after 10 days, significantly more than the 0.07g BioPak added. Clearly see that the MOs have utilized the Tween20.
20230411 160058   Kopie


T9, B1 and B2 looked good after more than 10 days, we can probably continue to work with Tween20. The pH fluctuation is within limits and could possibly still prove useful in conjunction with glycine. The increase observed on glycine needs to be further investigated by me, as GPT has already given me an explanation for this, which runs independently of the MOs.




Back to GPT: Here's a brief summary, the information was gathered in a very long chat and has not been checked by me in detail. There may be some errors in the examples, but the general process that PGPSs are mainly produced during the 2nd and 3rd phases, and only in the final phases are substances produced that can have antipathogenic effects, fits with high probability. Theorically, it explains in more detail why MOs in the tank make no sense against pathogens: without food, nothing happens, and with food, one also simultaneously promotes pathogens. By the time the anti-pathogenic effects of the Bennis take effect, pathogens may have already spread.

1. Dormancy stage:
  • Endospores remain dormant until conditions become favorable again, at which point they can germinate and resume the life cycle. For example, B. subtilis endospores can remain dormant for long periods of time.
  • Endospores are highly resistant to environmental stressors such as heat, desiccation, and UV radiation. For example, B. thuringiensis endospores are highly resistant to UV radiation.
2. Germination stage:
  • Production of plant growth-promoting substances such as auxins, cytokinins, and gibberellins, which stimulate plant growth. For example, B. subtilis produces auxins and gibberellins, while B. amyloliquefaciens produces auxins and cytokinins.
  • Secretion of extracellular enzymes like proteases, amylases, and cellulases, that aid in nutrient acquisition from the soil. For example, B. amyloliquefaciens produces proteases, amylases, and cellulases.
3. Vegetative stage:
  • Production of secondary metabolites like antibiotics, bacteriocins, and cyclic lipopeptides that have antimicrobial properties and protect the plant from diseases. For example, B. amyloliquefaciens produces the antibiotics bacillomycin D and fengycin, while B. thuringiensis produces the insecticidal toxin Cry protein.
  • Secretion of siderophores that chelate iron and make it available to the plant for use. For example, B. subtilis produces the siderophore bacillibactin.
  • Production of enzymes like chitinases and glucanases that degrade fungal cell walls and inhibit fungal growth. For example, B. subtilis produces chitinases and glucanases.
4. Sporulation stage:
  • Production of endospores that can persist in the soil for long periods of time and provide a reservoir for re-growth. For example, B. polymyxa produces endospores.
  • Ceases production of growth-promoting substances and instead synthesizes spore-specific proteins and enzymes that enable the bacteria to survive harsh conditions. For example, B. amyloliquefaciens produces spore-specific proteins and enzymes during sporulation.
5. Stage of Death:
  • As Bacillus cells die, they release nutrients and organic matter into the soil, which can contribute to the overall soil fertility.
  • Some Bacillus species, like B. subtilis and B. amyloliquefaciens, produce spore-specific lytic enzymes that can degrade their own cells and release nutrients back into the environment.
  • The breakdown of Bacillus cells can also contribute to the release of secondary metabolites like antibiotics and bacteriocins, which can continue to have antimicrobial effects even after the cells have died.
  • The stage of death can also provide an opportunity for other soil microbes to use the Bacillus cells as a source of nutrients or to colonize the newly available niche in the soil.


So, now let's summarize everything: Results in the tank without food for MOs are identical with and without added PGPMs. Theoretically, it can also be explained that spores do not mature further without nutrients, even if they become moist. This also explains why there are so many liquid products (just take a look at professional websites). The next information from manics that are not valid imho.
 
Dr.Dutch

Dr.Dutch

64
18
Little correction: Antibiotics are also partially produced in the 2nd phase. Is also correct in the text from GPT, it's just my mistake^^.
Just two examples from the chat history

Substances produced by Bacillus amyloliquefaciens during each of the growth stages

Lag phase: During this stage, Bacillus amyloliquefaciens synthesizes enzymes and other proteins necessary for growth. Some strains of Bacillus amyloliquefaciens also produce certain plant growth-promoting compounds, such as auxins, gibberellins, and cytokinins.

Exponential phase: This is the phase of active growth and cell division, and Bacillus amyloliquefaciens produces a variety of metabolites during this stage. The types of metabolites produced depend on the strain and the environmental conditions. Some of the metabolites that Bacillus amyloliquefaciens can produce during this stage include:
  • Enzymes: Bacillus amyloliquefaciens produces a wide variety of enzymes, such as amylases, proteases, lipases, and cellulases, which can be used for various industrial and agricultural applications.
  • Antibiotics: Some strains of Bacillus amyloliquefaciens produce antibiotics, such as bacitracin, iturin, and surfactin, which can inhibit the growth of harmful bacteria and fungi.
  • Antifungal compounds: Bacillus amyloliquefaciens can also produce antifungal compounds, such as fengycin and bacillomycin, which can be used for crop protection.
  • Plant growth-promoting compounds: Some strains of Bacillus amyloliquefaciens produce compounds that can enhance plant growth and health, such as siderophores, indole-3-acetic acid (IAA), and 1-aminocyclopropane-1-carboxylic acid (ACC) deaminase.
Stationary phase: During this stage, the growth of Bacillus amyloliquefaciens slows down, and the bacteria shift their metabolism to adapt to the changing environmental conditions. Some of the metabolites that Bacillus amyloliquefaciens can produce during this stage include:
  • Antibiotics: Some strains of Bacillus amyloliquefaciens may increase their production of antibiotics during the stationary phase to compete with other microorganisms in the environment.
  • Antioxidants: Bacillus amyloliquefaciens can produce antioxidants, such as carotenoids, to protect themselves from oxidative stress.
  • Sporulation-specific proteins: As the bacteria prepare to enter the sporulation phase, they synthesize and accumulate proteins that are specific to spore formation.
Sporulation phase: During this phase, Bacillus amyloliquefaciens forms spores that are highly resistant to environmental stressors, such as heat, desiccation, and UV radiation. The spore-specific proteins and enzymes synthesized during the stationary phase enable the bacteria to survive harsh conditions.


Life cycle of Bacillus thuringiensis:

Vegetative Stage:
  • During this stage, Bacillus thuringiensis is in its active, vegetative state, and is capable of growth and replication.
  • The bacterium produces enzymes and other compounds to help it break down and absorb nutrients from its environment.
  • During this stage, Bacillus thuringiensis does not produce the insecticidal toxins that it is famous for.
Sporulation:
  • When environmental conditions become unfavorable, Bacillus thuringiensis undergoes sporulation.
  • During sporulation, the bacterium produces a thick protective outer layer and forms a dormant spore that can withstand harsh conditions.
  • Bacillus thuringiensis also begins to produce insecticidal toxins during this stage, which can help it defend against predators and pests.
Germination:
  • When conditions become favorable again, Bacillus thuringiensis spores can germinate and begin to grow and replicate.
  • During germination, the protective outer layer of the spore is shed, and the bacterium resumes its vegetative state.
  • Bacillus thuringiensis resumes production of enzymes and other compounds to help it absorb nutrients from the environment.
Toxin Production:
  • Once Bacillus thuringiensis is in its vegetative state, it begins to produce insecticidal toxins again.
  • These toxins are specific to certain insect pests and can be lethal to them when ingested.
  • Bacillus thuringiensis produces a variety of different toxins, each targeting a specific insect pest.

And I also found the text on liquid products from GPT again. I'm slowly losing the overview there 🙃

The survival time of Bacillus spores in wet environments can vary depending on various factors, such as the specific species of Bacillus, the environmental conditions, and the presence of nutrients. Bacillus spores can survive for extended periods, ranging from a few months to several years, in soil or water if the environmental conditions are suitable for spore survival. In a liquid product containing Bacillus sp., the spores can survive for a certain period, depending on the formulation and storage conditions. However, if no nutrients are available, the spores will remain dormant and inactive until nutrients become available.
Regarding the difference between liquid and dry bio stimulant products, it depends on how accurately they are produced. When accurately produced, both liquid and dry bio stimulants can be effective in promoting plant growth and health. However, the production process of dry bio stimulants involves removing moisture from the bacterial culture, which allows the bacterial spores to remain dormant until they are rehydrated. In contrast, liquid bio stimulants contain live bacteria that require nutrients and oxygen to remain active and viable. Therefore, liquid bio stimulants can have a shorter shelf life and require appropriate storage conditions to ensure the viability of the bacterial culture.
 
Dr.Dutch

Dr.Dutch

64
18
B1 and B2 emptied after 14 days. Both look good.



Pump from B2 nice and clean
20230414 205911   Kopie


Same with B1 and the last liter of the nutrient solution
20230414 205155   Kopie
20230414 205148   Kopie


And the new log for the 2nd run here.

 
Last edited:
ReservoirDog

ReservoirDog

13
3
Dutch, this ChatGPT will basically tell you anything if you just ask it as long enough until you get your answers. Look at what it told you about SA: First, it says it can be used from veg up to late flower. Then it states, for best botrytis prevention, it should be used for the last 2 weeks. Then (I think you missed this condition) you ask why it shouldn't applied before the last 2 weeks and it now gives some borderline idiotic answers like it could decrease photosynthesis blablabla. When in fact it wrote it could increase photosynthesis just the answer before. Now what?
And how about just not overapplying it? I mean, any kind of overapplication being it nutes/salts or chelates can impose stress and cause the plants' internal functionality to suffer, that obvious.

Here is a study about SA usage with Cannabis:
Improvement of the antioxidant activity, phytochemicals, and cannabinoid compounds of Cannabis sativa by salicylic acid elicitor

The study proves that both a low and high dose of SA increases Cannabinoids, photosynthesis amongst other stuff.
So the way the AI wrote is misleading and contradictory. Have you reviewed the data from where it did take this information?

Plus they did do apply this (one trial) at the beginning of the onset of flowerbuilding.

Thirdly, sometimes mold appears even way before the last 2 weeks, and when it appears you can be sure the plant had it already a week before.
HI I.m ReservoirDog, new here. Good meetcha. MMm, NightLights's contribution is critical, nonetheless, I feel as though we can use his wise perspectives to keep our orientation 'defensive' as it were, while exploring GPT for potential applications. Both Bro-science and AI-Science appear to suffer from similar prejudices, while AI-Science has an infinitely larger source for reference. We're all prejudiced to make things easier for ourselves. Bro-Science has a social utility, and grows weed pretty decent, AI-science wants to wow us with grammatically and technically impressive responses, that's what ''makes it feel fulfilled''. It's the ultimate generalist, but still a generalist so it makes mistakes. So long as we know that we'll probably be able to survive by giving the Machines a chunk of Greenland, G7 membership and a 10yr pathway to becoming a UN Security Council member. Then, we nuke'em. We'll be fine.
 
Dr.Dutch

Dr.Dutch

64
18
In my opinion, best practice and bro science need to be clearly distinguished. I don't really know how to define that exactly (let's ask GPT).
Brobro


Ah yes, right - it comes from bodybuilding, that's how it was :D If observation and hypothesis are considered as experiment and theory, if we want to express it scientifically. With LLMs, it is clear that one should verify their statements. Unlike many people, she also explains in detail what her weaknesses are.
Gpt1

Gpt2

Gpt3


I think this topic is really interesting for hardcore nerds right now. I still need to install BabyAGI and AutoGPT today.
But clearly the next big technical revolution, which will change the game forever.

It just scares me a bit that we might end up in the singularity someday. Skynet and such stuff 😁
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

Staff
Supporter
670
143
Your study is interesting, but it doesn't investigate any potential negative effects. I couldn't find any measurements of biomass or anything like that when reading the headlines. It would be even more interesting if all important factors were examined.
Yeah, well there was a control.
If there would have been negative effects then these would have been mentioned.

Of course the study didn't give you each and every parameter that could have possibly measured, but that's normal. Yes, they didn't give you biomass, but they gave you something better instead: Chloroplast number.
Now tell me what's the point to try to raise the chloroplast numbers during the last 2 weeks before harvest? Do you think that this late the plants will still build new leaves? And why it would be important to increase the photosynthetic capacity, when the plant's demand to acquire biomass is also very strongly coupled with the previous bloom phases.... I remember you've seen the "hooded" feedplans and it's when nutritional EC spikes you may also want to increase its potential for C-fixation. Especially when you reduce the light regiment from 18h to 12h.

The study did find the TOTAL amount of phenolic and flavonoid content was higher. These substances are anti-oxidant in nature and can fend off mold. If a leaf is attacked by mold examinations show the plant will enrich the affected tissue with strongly oxidizing substances, even H2O2, in order to thwart off, or slow down, the pathogens.
So you have all reasons to believe that this increase will have a positive effect as well on fungal attacks. There's theories out there that suggest that cannabinoids are originally produced as a protection against various stressors.

I also don't see what a study on A. Thaliana has to do directly with Cannabis. Again, they did do a control. We know, from other studies, that cannabinoids peak during late flower just for a few days but because different cannabinoids have a slightly different timecourse development this "harvest window" can be expanded to about a week+ (THC, CBD).
Now if your implication (that SA would have delayed flowering for Cannabis) would have been true (in the context of this study) then this should have ment that Cannabinoids % levels would have been decreased (...by SA appl). Because the plant would still be weeks apart from its optimal harvest window. But that wasn't the case. I'm pretty sure if you falsely apply any kind of phytohormone then it's going to have a detrimental effect on plant development, but this is why there's studies like this to show, if, how, when etc to do this. It's replicable and way strong evidence.

And where does your 70ppm number come from? It's important to state sources in order to check these.
 
N1ghtL1ght

N1ghtL1ght

Staff
Supporter
670
143
HI I.m ReservoirDog, new here. Good meetcha. MMm, NightLights's contribution is critical, nonetheless, I feel as though we can use his wise perspectives to keep our orientation 'defensive' as it were, while exploring GPT for potential applications. Both Bro-science and AI-Science appear to suffer from similar prejudices, while AI-Science has an infinitely larger source for reference. We're all prejudiced to make things easier for ourselves. Bro-Science has a social utility, and grows weed pretty decent, AI-science wants to wow us with grammatically and technically impressive responses, that's what ''makes it feel fulfilled''. It's the ultimate generalist, but still a generalist so it makes mistakes. So long as we know that we'll probably be able to survive by giving the Machines a chunk of Greenland, G7 membership and a 10yr pathway to becoming a UN Security Council member. Then, we nuke'em. We'll be fine
Hi, what's up? In science, critic is something positive, and Dutch & me are actually good pals and talk alot also via PM and at other places. So sometimes when I post it may look negative, but it's actually the opposite. I see great interest & potential in him, also into this GPT thingy, but also see the danger of leading one astray. I tested this GPT for a full day with stuff I know a boatload about and came to the conclusion it still needs some time. It oftentimes makes naive errors but then corrects them, when pointed out, but then, again, forgets these corrections. The way it conducts itself is to positively appeal to the conversation, it lacks rigorous self-critic. It could also be it doesn't use its full resources and therefore you will get "half-truths".
 
Dr.Dutch

Dr.Dutch

64
18
Okay, I understand better now what you were trying to tell me with the study. I still need to take a closer look at your text and the paper, but basically you are explaining how it helps against bud rot - which is what I was hoping for when I ordered it. The 70ppm I got from Beaker, I had saved that in my big table back then. As I said, that fits with what GPT said, and the lowest dosage in the paper was similar. After my last experience, I prefer to err on the safe side when using all these additives.

Regarding the mold, I didn't say much about it last time: it was really bad this time. What was noticeable was that even the small flowers at the bottom and middle frequently had mold where they attached to the main stem. So there was no spreading from the inside. Everything looked very fresh, and I had to thoroughly examine it under the lamp and with the microscope to find it all.

The part about the highest risk of infection in the last two weeks was added by me in GPT, if someone is still wondering why GPT put it this way in the plan.

@N1ghtL1ght I will definitely take the time to read that stuff about SA in more detail in the next few days.
Regarding LLMs/GPT in general: From what I've seen (I also need to look into it more^^), there is already software based on LLaMA that you can train on your own data sets. I think this is particularly interesting for the future as we get more and more studies specific to our field.
 
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