Aqua Man
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Imo you dont want to dome a seedling or have the base of a plug soaking
MIAquaFire
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I have never domed them but bringing the water level.up just to the bottom allows the evaporation process kepp the plug humid and if it cant keep up just sprits it ontop a little.
I have found it allows the tap root to finger quicker in an outreach for water
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AtlaTeryx
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It's very nice to see that this thread has turned around. I'm glad I joined this site, great community here. I can't say the same for other places. Good luck @hm7, I'm Rooting for your success!
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hm7
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Yeah, those domes always gave me problems too. I'm sure some people need them depending upon where they live, but for me here, once I realized I didn't need to use them, hings became much easier. I used to struggle so bad keeping those little seedlings alive in the first 1-2 days in the dome.
Thanks man! Appreciate it. I am too :)
Frostie069
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just keep in mind the different variables.
last time your seedling was yellowing/deficiency, was it really deficient?
your definitely right it may have been, but could it have been a few other possibilities? the one I'll touch on is Ph maybe?
so last grow that I lost due to root rot, at the early stages my leaves started looking deficient, according to the charts looked very mag deficient. I tried all different things, didn't work long term, Then my EC and PH fluctuation wasn't right, took me a while (couple of weeks) to find out that while my res solution ph was fine, my "root zone" ph was acidic, so the plants were in nutrient lock out.
Is there a chance that there is an underlying PH issue causing the yellowing, then when you gave them some nice ph adjusted water to flush them they have a quick green up period, maybe fixed, maybe return to yellowing.
Not trying to tell you what to do, I just really agree with they can get away with nothing but water and light for two weeks after hatching no problem, and I really don't understand why they would need to be supplemented with extra cal mag so early, silica I'd get but cal mag I don't.
smokedareefer
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Root problems are often a cause of mag deficiency.
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hm7
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I'm pretty certain it's not directly related to ph. I have a bluelab guardian I use that check constantly and also calibrate reguarly, and I verify that calibration with 2 other pens that are also frequently calibrated just to be sure. They all align properly. However, it absolutely could be related to my overwatering/drowning issues I've struggled while while using either rockwool or rooters. That absolutely could be the cause of my yellowing issues on those.
That's the reason why I've given up using either rockwool or rooters, and have been focusing on trying to how to get through this without using them. The last few times I have not used them, I've had much better results, mainly because I think it's just much harder to oversaturate/drown a seedling when it's not sitting in a baby sponge. A lot of people seem to get that part right, managing to give them just enough to where they don't dry out, or don't get saturated. I can't seem to figure it out though. However, when I stopped using them, I've had much better results and have gotten the plants to live much longer.
At this point, I'm just trying to learn from each failure, and when I see at attempt that has worked better than the priors, I've stuck with what I was doing.
Smokey0418
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I’m pretty certain you fried those roots with your shocking treatment.
Just look how it killed everything off.
Just look how it killed everything off.
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hm7
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Oh yeah, this last time - undoubtedly so. I suspected that's what did them in too. I saw some gunk/slime, freaked out, dumped too much stuff in, and ... yeah it just melted/damaged them. It was pretty clear what happened to me this last go round when they were getting that nice 'fish-boning' going, all the way from the netpot down into the res, then ... a day later after I put too much shock in, that 'fish-boning' was pretty much gone, and the roots were sad - they just never recovered from it. You're absolutely correct.
SweetLeafGrow
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Been following along as best I can and with my limited knowledge, from what I can see you MAY be giving too much emphasis on top feeding down through the net pots. From what I have learned, it's not MANDATORY to do this and when you do, it's only once a week at the maximum. Not sure why you would put that on a timer and schedule frequent top feedings, I think I saw that somewhere along the way here. My first RDWC grow, I barely if at all top fed her. I have been doing it once a week at Aquaman's advice on my current grow but again, it's not that often. I totally trust Aman's advice so I do it but I am not 100% sure how important that top feeding is and I wonder if that is a major part of your issues bro. I'm still learning and but that is how I am understanding this issue ATM.
At any rate, you will get this figured out and soon be on your way to mastering this awesome way of cultivation!
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hm7
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Yeah, it's been a constant battle of doing 'too little' then followed by the inverse and doing 'too much' in an attempt to over compensate. I've always struggled getting roots through the net pot up until just recently when I stopped using rooters. I would either top feed too little, then the roots would dry up and the plant would die, or ... I'd top feed too much, and it would get saturated, drown, and die. Evidently I'm a person of extremes
Once I stopped using the rockwool/rooters - a lot of my problems disappeared, as ... I really just couldn't over water them at that point. And yes, I still am planning to use an automated top feeder on this next go round. I've built some nice little soaker rings that work well, and I have a feeder that I can build a schedule for and have it top feed for 'x' amount of time, every 'x' hours/days/etc. I think this last go round, I was doing fine until I stopped top feeding. Once I saw the root tips through the netpot, I stopped any/all top feeding, and ... it was only a week or so after that when I noticed issues starting. I really think Aqua Man is correct, and that was my mistake.
After futzing with that single 5gal bucket so much on the last system, I tried to build/design this system in a way that it would largely hands-off, except for maybe 1-2 times a week. I'm still hoping to accomplish that.
Frostie069
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For a two week old seedling, cmon! I'd say if you've run into root issues that quickly mag isn't helping you and deficiency is not the issue.
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Frostie069
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I'd say its a combination of things, but id be pretty certain it is related mate, I also have a guardian, I also have video surveillance inside the tent so while im at work I can watch them. But who's testing the "roots" because your guardian isn't. I use rock wool, wasn't the cause of last rounds fuck up. drown seedlings in rock wool? mate I just watered mine everyday and left 5mm of water in the cup and domed them, heaps of water at 100% humidity, all 9 seedlings. They loved it. I don't think you drowned them, however I did have early ph issues with the Rockwool after testing runoff, so that's why I daily watered/flushed the rockwool/seedlings, problem solved.
I can tell you from first hand experience, that sludge coating the roots isn't the same ph as your res solution, and that sludge stops them from nutrient uptake, but before you have gotten to sludge you've already been at battle with the beast for sometime thinking your nutrient deficient. Happened to me last grow and yes, all grows and people are different, I understand that. Just don't rule it out.
I'm just trying to provide an alternative way of looking at it from my brief experiences in hydro, you need to be prepared for anything and you need to think of everything.
PH and EC also talk to you like plant leaves, I can be at work and tell by the guardian numbers that things aren't right, I could tell by the numbers last grow that a pump wasn't working, so I called the missus up and sure enough it wasn't.
These two charts are fantastic IMO
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hm7
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I stopped using rockwool about 4 months ago, and then switched to rapid rooters. I did better in those, however... I still managed to get root rot in the netpot, and thought maybe my rooters were infected. I also had a tendency to overwater those too still and drowned quite a few. I stopped using them all together and haven't used either rockwool or rooters in about 3 attempts now as I've had better success going straight into the hydroton (meaning - I don't drown them at least). I still get some kind of root issue, but it's up in the hydroton, then as the roots continue to grow down, that part that had the infection starts to get down into that air gap between the solution and the bottom of the netpot.
I'm not getting slime/sludge on the roots that are actually submerged in the nutrient solution. This lat time I had roots that were like 12" long, they were well submerged. The roots that were in the nutrient solution were great - no discoloration, pure white, zero slime. My problem was the roots burried in the hydroton/up inside the netpot. That's where my root rot always seems to begin. My EC really never changes, but .... then again, my plants never really get big enough before dying to make it change in 12+ gal of nutrient solution at 1-2 weeks old either.
You do bring up excellent points I hadn't thought about regarding the ph range on slimed/sludged roots though - that hadn't occurred to me, definitely makes sense if that happens. Thankfully, I haven't actually seen slime in my roots that are actually down in the nutrient solution in this system though - I'm assuming the chiller has helped with that. I had slime BAD on my solo 5 bucket, absolutely - I also did not have a chiller that time though; that was an entirely different system.
Great charts btw - I'm going to save those. I have some similar to those, but in text form, but these are nice visual aids. Typically what I'm seeing lately is stable EC, and slowly rising PH. I assume the EC would go down if they actually were larger and eating or I had a smaller res. I just don't think they eat much in the first 1-2 weeks with that large of a res for it to drop, but it certainly could be a result of my problems as well.
With them so small, it's kind of hard for me to tell if the water level is lowering from them drinking, or if it's just from evaporation. I could tell easily on my last one when it got to flower haha, but ... these little gals, it seems harder on this system.
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smokedareefer
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Picture from op first post
Tap root like that suggests she's lapping up the water.
Read through op's responce to my question about whats in his water. Originally he said there was calmag in his solution but when i asked again it turned out he really had no idea what tha actual makeup of his water was.
Frostie069
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So I thought I'd share again, this is the same plant I threw a photo of up here Monday.
1st res made was at 0.6EC with tap 0.8, plants didn't like it, I had a declining PH and stable EC, so I added fresh water to the res to lower EC and then my ph stabilised and raised in a couple of days, when I returned home the plants still weren't super happy, so I made a new res, pissed off all the extras, just A&B and some super thrive, all in reduced amounts, Been running since at 0.5 EC 0.7 with tap, plants going ok, not perfect but ok. My ph raised from 5.9 to 6.0 and has stayed there, EC 0.5 and PH 6.0 for the last 3-4 days.
LEDs are still at 20-30% and I actually raised them the other day about 10cm approx.
what I wanted to show is, EC hasn't moved, Ive had maybe 2-3L of evaporation/plants drinking out of a 67L res. they're definitely eating as there is growth, but no lowering of EC, obviously there are many other variables to take into account, but they don't need allot, if anything they could have done with less initially. Our systems are different so I don't know if starting EC's are different in DWC, but hopefully this helps.
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hm7
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Ehhhh that's not entirely accurate. I knew how much calmag, Aquaflakes A and B I added, however yes the TDS was slightly higher than expected, and I was afraid of causing nute burn - so I replaced a small amount of that solution with tap water to drop the TDS down to more appropriate levels, but that doesn't mean I didn't know what was in the solution.
Proportionally, the calmag, A, and B were still there in roughly the same proportional amounts that were added - just at a slightly lesser total amount. This is a 12gal system, I replaced roughly 2 gal of solution with plain tap water to slightly lower the TDS. Really, what you had me redo the nutrient mixture to ended up being nearly identical to what I already had in there
Regardless - that wasn't the problem. The problem was the mass of black crap growing on the roots in the hydroton inside the netpot, and .. also the fact that I dumped way too much shock in and literally melted the roots.
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hm7
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Small update -
Bit the bullet today and completely tore the RDWC system apart. There was no way I was ever going to get this system completely clean with how it was built unfortunately. Also, like Aqua Man noticed early on - the water level really needed to be able to get higher - and due to the shorter res, I couldn't do that with how things were.
So, today I rebuilt the entire system, but instead of another RDWC system, I opted to go with a single 17gal tote this time. Lid painted with several coats of black - no light leaks from what I can tell with my testing. Chiller lines are at the very bottom of the tote on opposite ends to encourage nutrient solution movement, and are sealed well. Now, I can run water all the way up to the top if need be - that alone should help with a great number of problems. Without all that extra tubing, plumbing, etc - there's going to be a lot less places for crap to grow/get stuck, and I'll actually be able to actually clean this system out. I expect the water temps will be slightly higher, due to it being located inside the tent now, and just a single tote, as opposed to a 2 bucket + res system like before - but ... I think this as a whole will be a much better solution.
I threw out all the old tubing, connectors, etc. They were all gunked up, even with the cleaning I tried to do - I'm certain I would have just encountered problems again had I tried to use the system another time.
In addition - I've decided to also play it safe - I'm installing an in-line 36w UV sterilization system after the chiller before it goes back into the tote. With this being a single tote, I'm going to turn the pump controller all the way down which should give maximum exposure to both the chiller and the UV sterilization. I think this will finally solve the problems with anything growing in here. I've seen people use these 36w UV systems on huge aquariums and solve all sorts of problems from bacteria, to algae, to various pathogens. Pretty excited to try this out this round - should go a lot better I think.
I'm wondering if I can forego the H202 entirely with this UV system? I realize I won't be able to run any sort of bennies/organics with this - and I'm completely fine with that.
Still waiting to transplant the girls until they get a little larger, but they are still looking great in their little perlite cups.
Bit the bullet today and completely tore the RDWC system apart. There was no way I was ever going to get this system completely clean with how it was built unfortunately. Also, like Aqua Man noticed early on - the water level really needed to be able to get higher - and due to the shorter res, I couldn't do that with how things were.
So, today I rebuilt the entire system, but instead of another RDWC system, I opted to go with a single 17gal tote this time. Lid painted with several coats of black - no light leaks from what I can tell with my testing. Chiller lines are at the very bottom of the tote on opposite ends to encourage nutrient solution movement, and are sealed well. Now, I can run water all the way up to the top if need be - that alone should help with a great number of problems. Without all that extra tubing, plumbing, etc - there's going to be a lot less places for crap to grow/get stuck, and I'll actually be able to actually clean this system out. I expect the water temps will be slightly higher, due to it being located inside the tent now, and just a single tote, as opposed to a 2 bucket + res system like before - but ... I think this as a whole will be a much better solution.
I threw out all the old tubing, connectors, etc. They were all gunked up, even with the cleaning I tried to do - I'm certain I would have just encountered problems again had I tried to use the system another time.
In addition - I've decided to also play it safe - I'm installing an in-line 36w UV sterilization system after the chiller before it goes back into the tote. With this being a single tote, I'm going to turn the pump controller all the way down which should give maximum exposure to both the chiller and the UV sterilization. I think this will finally solve the problems with anything growing in here. I've seen people use these 36w UV systems on huge aquariums and solve all sorts of problems from bacteria, to algae, to various pathogens. Pretty excited to try this out this round - should go a lot better I think.
I'm wondering if I can forego the H202 entirely with this UV system? I realize I won't be able to run any sort of bennies/organics with this - and I'm completely fine with that.
Still waiting to transplant the girls until they get a little larger, but they are still looking great in their little perlite cups.
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AtlaTeryx
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How about some pics of everything; system, grow room, etc.
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hm7
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Here ya go. Hopefully there's nothing majorly wrong with it.
Before it's brought up, no, that's not orange RTV - those are rubber gaskets and stainless hardware (which will be the feed/return lines from the chiller.
No water in the system yet (which is why the bluelab ph probes are sitting temporarily in a container. I'm still finalizing external pump/chiller plumbing. Ran out of parts, so ... won't actually be able to be filled for a few days.
Planning to use the towels around the edge of the hydroton/netpots to keep light from getting in around that area.
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