beluga
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Especially with a big root system
H
hm7
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Yeah, I think once I manage to find a way to get through this root rot issue and move beyond it - I'll be okay. I have enough of an understanding of things and am willing to muddle my way through deficiency, etc issues that may (and likely will) arise. It's this root rot issue that's constantly plagued me and kept me from getting further though, and it's had me banging my head against a wall for answers while trying to find the root cause (no pun intended).
We'll see how this next attempt goes.
We'll see how this next attempt goes.
Aqua Man
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Sick plants are susceptible to almost anything. So starting with a healthy and established seedling allows the plant to use its own resistance and defence against any type of infection and have a much higher chance of success. Then we throw in bennies to further aid in that. Once you do it once it will seem like its soo simple and you couldn’t mess it up if you tried. I know its hard to see that now but trust me once it clicks its like a revelation. No more grasping at straws like you may feel now.
Just need to slow it down and give it a healthy start. Hell my res temps were over 91f at one point in my grow, crown rot from neglect and rushed clones before they were in tip top health. But i just accepted i may lose then and used some of the knowledge i gained to give them what i thought may help… but i also didn’t giver over them trying many different things. You n fact I continued and still do continue to neglect them significantly.
what i mean is when you have a problem make a plan and stick it out without trying 50 million things. That usually causes the stress that kills them because they are already struggling. Im by no means saying to neglect them like i have this grow… but i also have my reasons for doing so on top of being lazy. i want to test the limits to an extent with the elevated o2 im running in the system but thats a whole different story
H
hm7
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Solid advice! Thank you!
I think a big part of my 'rushing' problem has been my limited, and diminishing harvest from the first round
. Not that I'm a heavy consumer (I'm really not) but ... given my first one took almost half a year start to finish, and didn't net a lot - I keep hoping to finish something off in about 4 months this time and before current supplies run out. With these failures I've encountered, I'm already 4 months (or an entire grow) behind schedule. I'm not justifying my impatience, but I know this is where a large part of it stems from - and, like you said, it's not good regardless of why it's there.With what you've taught me so far, it definitely has had me thinking about how things could be done differently as well. It makes me wonder if one could run the water level well up into the netpots (say, 1/2-3/4 up), with sufficient aeration - and forego top feeding entirely? My thinking is, if the bottom of the netpot were submerged, there would be no air-gap, and also more of the hydroton/roots would remain sterile/inoculated. I can't test that in this setup, since the main res is too short, but ... it's definitely something I would like to explore/experiment with once if I can manage to get a few grows down. It almost makes sense to me. I don't think this would work very well with rooters/rockwool though - but, going straight into the hydroton, maybe?
Aqua Man
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In bare roots you can run it up if they are from an aero or hydro cloner. Remember root structure is different in different system so it takes time for them to adjust. In hydroton after roots are established to in a plug and a good amount in the water you can also run the water up.Solid advice! Thank you!
I think a big part of my 'rushing' problem has been my limited, and diminishing harvest from the first round
With what you've taught me so far, it definitely has had me thinking about how things could be done differently as well. It makes me wonder if one could run the water level well up into the netpots (say, 1/2-3/4 up), with sufficient aeration - and forego top feeding entirely? My thinking is, if the bottom of the netpot were submerged, there would be no air-gap, and also more of the hydroton/roots would remain sterile/inoculated. I can't test that in this setup, since the main res is too short, but ... it's definitely something I would like to explore/experiment with once if I can manage to get a few grows down. It almost makes sense to me. I don't think this would work very well with rooters/rockwool though - but, going straight into the hydroton, maybe?
if using airstones i suggest 1” below is a pretty failsafe way
H
hm7
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Makes sense. Thanks!
That was my thinking from this last attempt - where I germinated, then they went straight into an aerocloner (for 5 days), and then into netpots. I was hoping the aerocloner would have gotten those water-roots started off early.
I don't know if I should leave these 2 in their solo cups to grow on their own then transplant into the netpots once they get larger, or .... put them in the aerocloner again, but leave them in there for a couple of weeks (if that's even safe to do - or maybe that will lead to increased chances of root rot due to the higher temps of the cloner's water)?
Aqua Man
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Personally id go with a rapid rooter and when its busting out with roots needing watered daily then put down about 1-2” of hydroton and set them in ontop of that then fill the rest. Continue to top water until you see a decent amount of roots in the water. The only once a week from there.
I feel like a solo cup is to much media and will make the transition more difficult. Likewise no media can make transition more difficult.
peat, RW and rapids are about the right amount imo
H
hm7
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I've always had such great luck germinating in rooters (def pop up and produce tons of roots) - but I've always ran into problems top feeding while using them (I drown them every time I've tried) so .... germinated in straight perlite this time again (no rooters), as I wanted to build an automated top-feed system once they go into the netpots.
I guess we'll see how they do in the cups. I've never let them try to get real big in them, only ever kept them in here for 3-4 days, then straight into the cloner. We'll see how they do.
I guess we'll see how they do in the cups. I've never let them try to get real big in them, only ever kept them in here for 3-4 days, then straight into the cloner. We'll see how they do.
beluga
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I have a lot of trouble with sunk cost fallacy, myself. Something's not working and is a money pit? Invest more!!
The most frustrating thing for me to hear is that I'm only frustrated because of my expectations.
So I'm here to tell you you're only frustrated because of your expectations.
These are solo cups full of perlite?
That's not something I'm familiar with, but I will say to minimize the steps as much as possible. You want to go straight from rooter to final substrate.
Are you shaking off the perlite from the roots when you transplant to net pots?
H
hm7
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I have a lot of trouble with sunk cost fallacy, myself. Something's not working and is a money pit? Invest more!!
The most frustrating thing for me to hear is that I'm only frustrated because of my expectations.
So I'm here to tell you you're only frustrated because of your expectations.
These are solo cups full of perlite?
That's not something I'm familiar with, but I will say to minimize the steps as much as possible. You want to go straight from rooter to final substrate.
Are you shaking off the perlite from the roots when you transplant to net pots?
Yeah - that's been another huge problem with this. It started off relatively cheap ,and it's just continued to balloon chasing potential problems down when stuff hasn't been working, or trying to get better stuff, thinking what I had wasn't sufficient, etc. It's been a huge investment, which is frustrating too, as I initially tried very hard to keep this around $1k max. It's easily gone 3x that already I bet - sucks to admit.
"You're only frustrated because of your expectations" Hahaha - yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there! 100% accurate!
Yeah, the solo cups are full of perilte, and only perlite. I got the idea after reading it's used in coco to aid in aeration and keep things quick draining. Seemed like a perfect medium to try germinating seeds in. Strong enough to hold a seed/seedling, and yet light/airy enough that I could do heavy top feeding without worrying about drowning the seedling - and more importantly, I was hoping it would keep root rot to a minimum chance. I've got tons of tiny holes poked in the bottom of each cup, then ... they go into another solo cup (with no holes on that one) to catch the run-off from top feeding/watering.
So far - it's proven to work very well for germinating. Every time I've germinated like this, I get perfect germination in 3 days (after soaking each bean for roughly 8h in ro water) - but ... I've never left them in there for longer than 5 days.
Yeah, it's very easy to get the seedling out of it. I just lightly hold the seedling, and slowly/carefully submerge the solo cup in a large pan of room temp water. The perlite literally just floats away from the seedling, leaving perfect roots. From there, I've gone directly into the aerocloner, then ... into the net pot. But, this time, I was thinking maybe I can leave them in these cups for 2 weeks or so, until they get a few nodes going? I don't know how they will do though. I figure with enough top feeding, they should do okay though?
Moe.Red
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Hat tip to @beluga @Aqua Man @hm7 for turning around what could easily become a shit tossing campaign. This really is a great community.
Frostie069
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wha
raising seedlings is something im working on developing a good system for, I had to put them into the setup earlier than I would have liked due to solution temp being too high, but I was aiming for a few nodes, but most importantly was a good root system to handle nutrients, ive noticed so far, they can develop in different ways, sometimes im not looking at much up top but when I inspect the roots they're ready for the system, some have more up top and less below etc. Also in the one system ive got plants germinated at different times, makes it little tricky with nutrients but, my gorilla glues have caught up to my bay burgers which were germinated a week or so later. Ive got a gorilla cookies that was germinated last out of everything and is now competing with the first germinated for root mass.
Like many have said, there is no one rule for all, its challenging, expensive and frustrating but fuck me, its bloody addictive!!
Fingers crossed, I've got a good feeling about this grow for you though....
my new rule number one which has helped me out too, if everything is fine and going well, don't touch it, its difficult, but resist the temptation.
sounds like a good plan mate, ive been following along throwing in my two cents but here to learn also, plenty of advice being thrown around, I don't want to miss out either haha
raising seedlings is something im working on developing a good system for, I had to put them into the setup earlier than I would have liked due to solution temp being too high, but I was aiming for a few nodes, but most importantly was a good root system to handle nutrients, ive noticed so far, they can develop in different ways, sometimes im not looking at much up top but when I inspect the roots they're ready for the system, some have more up top and less below etc. Also in the one system ive got plants germinated at different times, makes it little tricky with nutrients but, my gorilla glues have caught up to my bay burgers which were germinated a week or so later. Ive got a gorilla cookies that was germinated last out of everything and is now competing with the first germinated for root mass.
Like many have said, there is no one rule for all, its challenging, expensive and frustrating but fuck me, its bloody addictive!!
Fingers crossed, I've got a good feeling about this grow for you though....
my new rule number one which has helped me out too, if everything is fine and going well, don't touch it, its difficult, but resist the temptation.
beluga
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Yeah, I think if you're able to keep them healthy and productive you should stick to just the perlite solo cups until they've got some decent roots, then to their final net pots.
Personally, I'd set aside the aerocloner until you're ready to take clones.
So here's my thinking.
If you're taking them from perlite to aerocloner when they've only got a bit more than a taproot, there's likely a good chance that you're exposing them at a very vulnerable state.
I haven't read enough about plant immunity to give an educated hypothesis, but... most baby things are still working on developing their immune systems. It wouldn't be too farfetched to me that, if you have a specific population of a root rotting organism in your locale, they could be latching on while your plant hasn't learned how or hasn't made symbiosis with a root microbe to defend it. It hangs out there, waiting for a hole in the system - some dried out roots per se - and takes its opportunity. I might be dreaming a little there, but they are definitely susceptible to greater damage even just by mechanical means at that stage.
I think of rockwool or other starters as a life capsule for the seed. It's there to keep its core integrity up until it has the means to make it on its own. Removing that before the plant is ready is opening it up to a lot of possible risk... especially if you already have a known risk.
MIAquaFire
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If you're going to germ a seed for dwc/rdwc its best to do it in a rootriot or a 50/50 floraflex plug. Nothing else will work well when it comes to the transplant time.
The more we mess around with roots at even a young CLONE age let alone a young seed germination age the more of a chance you have of disease, rot, distress, stress ect. Use a plug (i prefer floraflex 50/50 plugs).
As far as the rest goes get either jacks, mega crop or front row ag. I prefer front as it is diet cheap easy as fck to use and i like the micro makeup in it. Plus thier silica is bomb and also dirt cheap. I personally have seen much better results with front row than jacks and its a simple 2 part. 2 bags 2 parts thats it.
As far as the system itself just stick to the basics. Low/medium feed, hydrogaurd and or brewed recharge. Sterile sucks, it ALWAYS fails at some point. Idgaf if someone has run it fine for 5/10 years eventually they will end up loosing a crop to rot!
I myself sometimes tinker and fck up to, like recently i had brown shit all over my roots after a fed a recharge tea and figured i just used to much and it was the left over recharge..... well no it wasn't, it was the fact that my dumbass wanted to incorporate extra liquid karma (kelp) into the brew as well and that was a bad idea that wont ever happen again lol.
Stick to the KISS method till you get that down pat and have seen or fought deficiencies, rot ect and won. At that point you'll know what to do and how to respond fast enough that tinkering wont be so stressful.
Front row ag/jacks or mega
Low ppm
Hydrogaurd or rechargw brewed 1x a week
Water temps 66-68°
Proper vpd
Watch the explode
The more we mess around with roots at even a young CLONE age let alone a young seed germination age the more of a chance you have of disease, rot, distress, stress ect. Use a plug (i prefer floraflex 50/50 plugs).
As far as the rest goes get either jacks, mega crop or front row ag. I prefer front as it is diet cheap easy as fck to use and i like the micro makeup in it. Plus thier silica is bomb and also dirt cheap. I personally have seen much better results with front row than jacks and its a simple 2 part. 2 bags 2 parts thats it.
As far as the system itself just stick to the basics. Low/medium feed, hydrogaurd and or brewed recharge. Sterile sucks, it ALWAYS fails at some point. Idgaf if someone has run it fine for 5/10 years eventually they will end up loosing a crop to rot!
I myself sometimes tinker and fck up to, like recently i had brown shit all over my roots after a fed a recharge tea and figured i just used to much and it was the left over recharge..... well no it wasn't, it was the fact that my dumbass wanted to incorporate extra liquid karma (kelp) into the brew as well and that was a bad idea that wont ever happen again lol.
Stick to the KISS method till you get that down pat and have seen or fought deficiencies, rot ect and won. At that point you'll know what to do and how to respond fast enough that tinkering wont be so stressful.
Front row ag/jacks or mega
Low ppm
Hydrogaurd or rechargw brewed 1x a week
Water temps 66-68°
Proper vpd
Watch the explode
Bluebuddha
- 260
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@beluga
"I have a lot of trouble with sunk cost fallacy, myself. Something's not working and is a money pit? Invest more!!"
Is that not normal?
Cause gawddamn I got that problem. More money more attention more scribbling notes more falling asleep obsessing and first thought in waking!
Damn I'm tired and the moon is huge and red right now. Zzzzzzz
"I have a lot of trouble with sunk cost fallacy, myself. Something's not working and is a money pit? Invest more!!"
Is that not normal?
Cause gawddamn I got that problem. More money more attention more scribbling notes more falling asleep obsessing and first thought in waking!
Damn I'm tired and the moon is huge and red right now. Zzzzzzz
H
hm7
- 117
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@beluga
"I have a lot of trouble with sunk cost fallacy, myself. Something's not working and is a money pit? Invest more!!"
Is that not normal?
Cause gawddamn I got that problem. More money more attention more scribbling notes more falling asleep obsessing and first thought in waking!
Damn I'm tired and the moon is huge and red right now. Zzzzzzz
Lol this resonates very deeply!
H
hm7
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Yeah, I agree. The aerocloner was my 'knee jerk' reaction last time trying to see if things would improve if I managed to get my roots long enough to feed through the holes in the bottom of the netpot when transplanting them. It actually did work, I was shocked at how quickly the roots grew in it. But, yeah obviously they either got exposed to something between the perlite, in the cloner, or in the netpot. Again - too many variables.
I am going to do like you said here this round, just let them go in the solo cups of perlite for a couple of weeks and see how they do. I've not tried that yet, and I'm interested to see how it goes. I know rooters are recommended (and they absolutely kick start things off - no doubt!), but every time I use them, I either top feed too much and soak the rooters/rockwool (and drown the plants), or I don't top feed enough, and they dry out and die before the roots get down through the netpot.
By removing the rooters/rockwool from the equation, I've seemingly solved my problem of over/under watering. They no longer drown or dry out - now, it's just this root rot issue that remains. Slow progress, but ... it's progress.
So far, the perlite is looking to be doing great. They're both up, green, happy, and fully opened. I can top water/feed frequently without worrying about things staying too wet/damping off. I'll keep an eye on them here over the next week or two, and worse case - update if I run into problems, best case, update when I think they might be ready to transplant into the netpots :)
beluga
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When you say you top feed rooters... are you giving them nutrients at that seedling stage?
Seeds have enough energy reserves to carry them through their first or second set of true leaves (the ones after cotyledons.) The most I'll add to young seedling water is microbes, personally. But you almost never need to add anything for the first days, maybe a week or so, of seedling growth.
Not that I necessarily see this as a cause of your issues, but just to keep any extra stress off those young plants.
Seeds have enough energy reserves to carry them through their first or second set of true leaves (the ones after cotyledons.) The most I'll add to young seedling water is microbes, personally. But you almost never need to add anything for the first days, maybe a week or so, of seedling growth.
Not that I necessarily see this as a cause of your issues, but just to keep any extra stress off those young plants.
H
hm7
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Up until this last attempt, I've only ever given water due to reading "plants need only water for the first 3 weeks" everywhere. I don't know if my water is too low of PPM or what, but every time I do, my seedlings yellow horribly and show signs of deficiencies. I know it's commonly stated online to give zero nutes - but every time I do, my seedlings look horrible. My tap water is 40/50 TDS.
This last time (meaning when I started this thread), I mixed up a tiny amount of calmag, Aquaflakes A and B - TDS was at 220, and I top fed my seedlings with that - and ... my yellowing/deficiency issues instantly went away. So, that's what I'm doing again, they're being top fed with that same mixture.
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