Endemic Root Rot and Brown Slime in dwc and rdwc, nothing helps, down 40 plants in 3 months wtf

[sedate]

I've been running DWC for years with no problems. Like since 2009 I haven't lost a plant or bucket (or fucking clone for that matter) without some obvious issue, i.e., a dead pump.

I have been ALL ABOUT hydro for years. I scoff at soil growers.

Right up until the past couple of weeks.

....and now....

Over the summer I plumbed together a pair of RDWC systems - a 3kw 12-site system and a 1.2kw 9-site system based around 5-gallon and 3-gallon buckets respectively. Large airstones on dual-outlet Active Aqua pumps in every single bucket.

I've run the same nute recipie for years -

Botanicare Pro-series base
Great White or MycoMadness or BushDoctor KangaRoots
Hormex
GH's pH up to 5.3 - 6.1

That's fucking it. Nothing fancy, living rez, pH management.. easy-peasy for the last 4 years.

First three grows in each system were a resounding success. Pulled lovely sticky-icky all summer and into September. (This is important, because at that point rez temps were never below 70 at that point and all my problems began in November and they haven't been above 70 since) ...

To wit, and to get an idea of the systems:



Of course they go into the system mighty-whitey:



And the progress was always wonderful:



These ended with my typical finished rootball:



And, more importantly, mad pounds of diggity-dankity-sticky-icky chronic.

The way things are supposed to be.

Then I lost this run to rot, about two weeks after this pic was taken. You can imagine how quickly things went south given how lush I am here. At the time, I didn't think much of it - I was stuck at my workshop rebuilding my motor so I mostly thought I left the system overfull and it got a bit screwy with the net-pots awash for a week or so. I was surprised, but I had so many other plants running I shrugged it off, cleaned the system, and reloaded it.



Fast forward 4 months. Now I've lost 4 additional runs between both systems to rot. I have not finished one successfully. I've lost more than 40 some-plants at this point.

Each time I've disassembled the entire system, Physan'd and scrubbed everything from the nets to the air stones to the waterlines... and reloaded the system with plants as mighty-whitey-rooty just as you see above.

Within three weeks I'm looking at black streaks in the root zones, within 4 I'm fully rotting and by week 5 I'm toast.

Here is a week 2 pic - you can see the first glimmers of rot around the edges of the roots just starting to creep up - normally I don't worry about this ever - I always finish with healthy, fiberous, caramel colored roots so the first glimmers of caramel creep are usually normal for my DWC methods. But here, within a few days the whole zone will be snotty and brownish-black and dropping huge bits of root into the water -



Turns into



In 10 days or so.

Nothing has helped. I've tried everything I know of. Peroxide baths will knock it back for two days, but the rot will return with a vengeance within 48 hours.

Despite good performance over the summer I wondered if rez temps were a problem so I started dropping in frozen gallons of RO water into the mother and daughter buckets - with temps never above 70 rot still gets established and everything is rotten by the end of week 4.

Starting with disinfected equipment and very healthy rootzones I can't finish a run.

Every parameter is spot-on. I even have a brand-new RO filter.

I've tried:

Actinovate
Aqua-Shield
Microbial Tea
Peroxide baths
Sterile nute-mixes (tried a top feed with JRPeters dry ferts mixed with Hormex and H202, seemed to get worse)

I've also tried various microbial tea recipies with GreatWhite, MycoMadness, Aqua-Shield, and Actinovate:



No help there either.

I feel like this is less a biological problem with an identifiable cause and something more akin to a curse.

Here is one bucket, after a 72-hour peroxide bath in the dark, fresh nute-mix and listed above and new white roots exploded out of the dead roots.... nice recovery was going on....

Then I refilled the bucket to the bottom of the net-pot and the very next morning:



Here another after two weeks of top feeding with dry salt ferts, hormex, and h202 (this batch actually seemed to get worse, usually the h202/hormex combo helps) -



I'm fucking dumbfounded.

Have I been suddenly cursed?

Help.

 

[mastacheeser]

bleach everything like crazy in between grows

looks like you tried everything except the sterile route
id go heavy on the h2o2

 

[Wavegem]

Dude all that writing and shit you never mentioned a chiller one time

Get rid of the bacteria and run uc roots guaranteed

 

[sedate]

bleach everything like crazy in between grows

looks like you tried everything except the sterile route
id go heavy on the h2o2

?? I've been top feeding sterile for weeks and things have gotten worse.

I've tried pure peroxide baths for days. Improvement for 72-hours then it explodes back again.

I will definately start cleaning with bleach - I did use a shitload of physan20 but here we are still....

Dude all that writing and shit you never mentioned a chiller one time

Get rid of the bacteria and run uc roots guaranteed

Ya rez temps are good. I'm hovering at 68 - 70 and peak at 72 for a couple of hours before lights off. Anyway, like I said in the post I froze gallon RO water ice blocks for awhile to keep it below 70 (actually it was hovering around 64ish) but that didn't help at all.

And I'm aerated as hell. 14 air-stones in 45-ish gallons.

UC Roots? That looks like super expensive chlorine...?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypochlorous_acid

 

[Mountaingirl]

I'm having same kinda issue all of a sudden has anyone tried colloidal shield

 

[mastacheeser]

You have to re add the h2o2

I'd be doing rezzie swaps pretty regularly if ya wanna get rid of the rot

Look at uc roots

 

[Swell]

Water temperature is critical in DWC. Been there done that.

Keep it cool and add hygrozyme.

Hygrozyme and cooler root temps will save ya

 

[Swell]

Also make sure you are cleaning all your buckets and pots between runs... Slimy gunk build up leads to root rot in Hydro.

 

[deacon1503]

bleach everything like crazy in between grows

+1 and replace or sterilize the buckets and replace all poly lines every run.

Dude all that writing and shit you never mentioned a chiller one time

Get rid of the bacteria and run uc roots guaranteed

Chiller for sure, 68 deg max. Trim off all dead roots. UC Roots may appear to be a plant friendly bleach but it does indeed work, IMO. I've caught a system like yours at the pythium stage your at now and brought it back to white roots and a successful harvest by way of a clean system, UC Roots, Physan-20 treatments, and adding straight liquid phosphorus to help the roots spring back. It definitely can be done.

Keep it cool and add hygrozyme.

Not so sure of that. With the pythium already heavily present, and being the dominant bacteria within the system, the hygrozyme with just exacerbate the rot.

 

[Seamaiden]

If what these other cats who are familiar with UC recommend doesn't work, then I would treat it like cyanobacteria and try... I can't remember if it's gram + antibiotics you want for dealing with cyano... or broad spectrum, hold on, lemme take a look. Once aquarists began using antibiotics instead of cleaning to deal with cyano they've been able to get a handle on it. Of course, antibiotics are rather indiscriminate. BRB.

Edit: Ok, some papers are saying gram negative, and now I'm looking at a paper that says they show features of both gram positive and negative bacteria.

 

[Swell]

I'm not as familiar with dominant bacteria versus (?inferior bacteria?) as Deacon is, so perhaps if you've got a serious root rot problem Hygrozyme could exacerbate it. I don't see that happening though from my experiences with both DWC root rot and usage of Hygrozyme while doing Hydro.

That being said, running Hygrozyme throughout the entire run would likely help this root rot issue.

Hygrozyme is comparable to other enzyme products as well. I've also heard of great results from Canna's Sensizym.

Also to be noted is Physan 20 is an insanely hardcore chemical, really meant to clean equipment. Check out the MSDS:
.
I'd be hard pressed to apply this to a living organism that you're going to ingest.

Hope this can help a bit.

 

[Wavegem]

I specifically remember hygrozyme giving farmers serious issues in rdwc. A lot of miss information

 

[Seamaiden]

@Swell -- the bottle of Physan 20 I have says it can be used to sanitize cuttings. It's a quaternary ammonium compound, similar to what's used in the medical and veterinary fields. Quats, as it's sometimes called, is also used in the hair and manicuring industries, and it's used as a net dip in aquarium shops and wholesalers to prevent spread of disease.

Looking at the label I have, it's used on ornamentals for certain types of disease control, mostly mold/fungus. No mention of consumables, but it's not so hardcore that it can't touch living macro or vertebrate organisms. :)

 

[Chronic Monster]

in my experience, hygrozyme = igrowslime
physan 20 in the res, drain and flush followed by ewc tea has done the best for me when i got slimed.
i used a much lower dose than dizzle reccomended.
physan 20 i believe breaks down in three days to N

 

[MedicineFarm]

try capulator's tea recipe…… then get bigger buckets to hold all them roots

 

[TiRx]

Probably a silly addition, but I didn't see it mentioned - if it's a recurring situation I'd toss the airstones and get new ones. Your post said you scrubbed them, but those things are so porous it's almost impossible to get everything out. If the stones have been used in more than 3 runs, they're toast.

Also, doesn't look like you're running RDWC, but if you do have any pumps managing your water levels, consider rebuilding them or at least letting the entire system run for a day or two with a bleach solution (obviously between runs without plants in there). I had an issue a couple years ago where I had all the parts of my UCs cleaned to a germophobe's satisfaction, but there was a little bit of gunk in one of the recirculating pumps and that's what kept re-f*cking my system. Very frustrating and expensive lesson...

Beyond that, I don't think anyone can say enough good about UC Roots. It works. I also use a UVA sanitizer between runs - the hospital type units are a few grand, but you can get one of the hotel wands for less than $100, just observe the safety protocols - that light is indiscriminate in it's destruction of DNA.

Good luck!

 

[sedate]

Hello everybody. :dead:

Thanks for the replies everyone. Didn't mean to drop off the thread after everyone chimed in but..

This run is toast. :hungover:

So I think I just lost about 5 pounds all of three weeks away from harvest. :banghead:

I appreciate everyone's suggestions but I think I waited to long to make serious moves in the beneficial OR sterilization route.

I should've sterlized immediately when I saw the very first glimmers of rot - instead I just drained the system and top-fed by hand with dry ferts and h202. Bad plan.

And - as I indicated in my original post - this all occurred while running Great White in the first place so I am really perplexed as to WTF underlying pathogen could wreck all this havoc with rez temps so low anyway.

@Seamaiden: Ya I saw some guest contributions you made to that Heisenburg EWC thread over on ICMag or rollitup or wherever it is but I guess I'm sort of perplexed as to how to run them? Like would that be a sterile solution with - say - chemical salt ferts and only the erythromycin? It seems sort of odd to throw antibiotics like that into an otherwise living rez ... like I would think they would affect some but not all of the microbial life and cause some other sort of runaway problem..? What do you think about that Heisenburg EWC recipe? You say treat like cyanobacteria but my takeaway was that Ancient Forest/Myco tea was the silver bullet here? Of course, over 4 RDWC runs over the last 4 months, I've had all of them rot like this ALL while running bennies in the first place.... (MycoMadness, Great White, KangaRoots, PlantSuccess Soluble, etc.) after 4 YEARS of perfect hydro performance.
Never taken so many hits in such a small space of time.:(

@Swell: Thanks for the suggestion but my own experience with hygrozyme has been awful! ... to wit -

@ChronicMonster: Ya hygrozyme is root-rot in a bottle. I have no idea what use it actually has or WTF it really is, but I find the stuff turns healthy roots to orange mush in 3 or4 days so I've steered clear of that shit for years. As far as physan20, it does drop some N from the ammonia complex..

@TiRx: Actually, that had occurred to me as well so I had been bubbling my stones in a physan or bleach solution before reloading the system. I also submerged my pump in bleach water and had it cycle it for awhile. My equipment was not sterile per se, but as clean as realistically feasible for a home setup.

I'm not as familiar with dominant bacteria versus (?inferior bacteria?) as Deacon is, so perhaps if you've got a serious root rot problem Hygrozyme could exacerbate it. I don't see that happening though from my experiences with both DWC root rot and usage of Hygrozyme while doing Hydro.

That being said, running Hygrozyme throughout the entire run would likely help this root rot issue.

Hygrozyme is comparable to other enzyme products as well. I've also heard of great results from Canna's Sensizym.

Also to be noted is Physan 20 is an insanely hardcore chemical, really meant to clean equipment. Check out the MSDS:
http://www.physan.com/Resources/MSDS-Physan 20.pdf.
I'd be hard pressed to apply this to a living organism that you're going to ingest.

Hope this can help a bit.

in my experience, hygrozyme = igrowslime
physan 20 in the res, drain and flush followed by ewc tea has done the best for me when i got slimed.
i used a much lower dose than dizzle reccomended.
physan 20 i believe breaks down in three days to N

If what these other cats who are familiar with UC recommend doesn't work, then I would treat it like cyanobacteria and try... I can't remember if it's gram + antibiotics you want for dealing with cyano... or broad spectrum, hold on, lemme take a look. Once aquarists began using antibiotics instead of cleaning to deal with cyano they've been able to get a handle on it. Of course, antibiotics are rather indiscriminate. BRB.

Edit: Ok, some papers are saying gram negative, and now I'm looking at a paper that says they show features of both gram positive and negative bacteria.

Probably a silly addition, but I didn't see it mentioned - if it's a recurring situation I'd toss the airstones and get new ones. Your post said you scrubbed them, but those things are so porous it's almost impossible to get everything out. If the stones have been used in more than 3 runs, they're toast.

Also, doesn't look like you're running RDWC, but if you do have any pumps managing your water levels, consider rebuilding them or at least letting the entire system run for a day or two with a bleach solution (obviously between runs without plants in there). I had an issue a couple years ago where I had all the parts of my UCs cleaned to a germophobe's satisfaction, but there was a little bit of gunk in one of the recirculating pumps and that's what kept re-f*cking my system. Very frustrating and expensive lesson...

Beyond that, I don't think anyone can say enough good about UC Roots. It works. I also use a UVA sanitizer between runs - the hospital type units are a few grand, but you can get one of the hotel wands for less than $100, just observe the safety protocols - that light is indiscriminate in it's destruction of DNA.

Good luck!

 

[Pancho-N-Lefty]

Feeling your pain @sedate
having similar problems. My rez temps have bee south of 65 all winter so I figured theres no way there should be any rot especially with bennies. Been using Orca since I ran out of Caps bennies.
Cant shake it, even in a sterilized new unit Im still getting it. I have tried new stones and buckets for veging plants to see wtf and its still there. The only thing i do not have in play is an RO system as my water comes out at O ppm and a UV filter to kill anything. I was using h202 to sterilize the water before introducing any nutes or what have you but alas to my chagrin.
I am trying a run of SM90 now to see but I think I will try to use some UC Roots and get some more of Caps Bennies and maybe some Physan20 if this does not remedy.
I also tried the Ancient forest /ZHO/Aquashield to ill effects.
Keep us posted on your success and failure and ill keep you posted on any luck I have as well.
Also added a submergible aquarium heater to try to get it warmer as close to 68* as possable
GL

PnL

 

[Chronic Monster]

man, sending love your way man! losing a crop sucks a fat dick... after years of smooth runs shit hit the fan several runs in a row, fucking r(death without cause) syndrome.
im in my first coco run at the moment,

 

[sedate]

man, sending love your way man! losing a crop sucks a fat dick... after years of smooth runs shit hit the fan several runs in a row, fucking r(death without cause) syndrome.
im in my first coco run at the moment,

Yup death without cause syndrome. Pretty much as far as I can tell. :wtf:

So you switched out of hydro to coco or what? Cuz I'm pretty much done playing in the water at this point..

Feeling your pain @sedate
having similar problems. My rez temps have bee south of 65 all winter so I figured theres no way there should be any rot especially with bennies. Been using Orca since I ran out of Caps bennies.
Cant shake it, even in a sterilized new unit Im still getting it. I have tried new stones and buckets for veging plants to see wtf and its still there. The only thing i do not have in play is an RO system as my water comes out at O ppm and a UV filter to kill anything. I was using h202 to sterilize the water before introducing any nutes or what have you but alas to my chagrin.
I am trying a run of SM90 now to see but I think I will try to use some UC Roots and get some more of Caps Bennies and maybe some Physan20 if this does not remedy.
I also tried the Ancient forest /ZHO/Aquashield to ill effects.
Keep us posted on your success and failure and ill keep you posted on any luck I have as well.
Also added a submergible aquarium heater to try to get it warmer as close to 68* as possable
GL

PnL

Hey Pancho.

Your water comes out at 0ppm and it doesn't come out of an RO filter? What does it come from? Anyway I'm not really on board with the theories around grow boards that this type of problem somehow starts at the tap - not with all the bennies and the years and years of good runs I have under my belt.

I don't think UCRoots is a product worth money - it looks like dilute bleach to me - I think you can get the same thing from an eye-dropper full of bleach and a gallon of h20 - the active ingredient:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypochlorous_acid

I am trying a run of SM90 now to see but I think I will try to use some UC Roots and get some more of Caps Bennies and maybe some Physan20 if this does not remedy. I also tried the Ancient forest /ZHO/Aquashield to ill effects.

My thinking here as evolved a bit - if I saw it happening again I would:

1) Immedaitely drain and clean the system, re-fill with physan'd water and run for 24-hours with no lights
2) Start brewing the Ancient Forest/bennies EWC tea
3) Dump the physan water clean AGAIN
4) refill the system with nutes and the EWC tea to 1" below the net-pots
4) Raise the lights until root recovery

Unfortunately, as you say you didn't get results from the tea - and of course rotting in the first place with Great White or Orca or any good myco product really is pretty head-scratching when all the other parameters are in line.

If I hadn't lost so many runs and was so low on $$$ I would've picked up a good microscope to see what I could see in the rot and the slime...

Keep us posted on your success and failure and ill keep you posted on any luck I have as well.

Sadly, with no definitive cause or cure, I'm done in water. Already done the hempy conversion, sitting on 30 cubic-ft of coco-and-perlite.

My losses are now DEEP into 5-figure territory, never-mind that I've burned at least $2000 worth of electrons and fertilizer and many many many hours now draining and scrubbing and reloading and draining and scrubbing and reloading and draining and scrubbing.... so I'm definitely moving as quickly as possible to the safety of dry land.

Dirt and mix are not nearly as much fun or gratifying, but the greenery I like most of all is money. ;)