from seed in peat pellets, stunted growth

[mekannic]

i'll look for it. thanks

 

[Seamaiden]

i am beginning to think it is pH. i was given advice to let them get real thirsty and pH my water to 6.3, just plain distilled water at this stage. i felt the pot and it felt like it was starting to get dry last night before bed so i gave just a tiny splash of that pHd distilled and the stem reddened right back up on me. i also don't think it was as dry as i thought it was.

so it's either way too acidic or way too wet.

In my experience, it is IMPOSSIBLE to overwater a seedling. Too acidic IMO. Also, stop using distilled water, let there be *some* mineral content in there.

i have tried some soil with about the same results. it's working good for my tomatoes, cantaloupe, peppers, spearmint and rosemary.

So, you're saying you're using the same media with other seeds, with no problems? That *is* odd.

i ain't ever had this much trouble starting from seed. i can't wait til i get something worth keeping. i'll cut my left arm off to keep a couple really good mommies.

i have been going back and forth between rain water and distilled. i have some buckets i have been filling with tap water and letting set for days before i use any of it and i haven't been using it on anything but the regular garden. all the water i got appears to pH high, maybe my pen needs a new probe or replacing altogether. i got cleaning solution, storage solution, calibration solution and i try real hard to take care of it but should distilled water pH out at basic? i thought it would be neutral or so. rain water is pHing high too. but until yesterday i hadn't done anything but check the water and nute solutions. never added anything to adjust. and when i did, it seemed to backfire.

Mix the rain water with tap. Leave out the distilled altogether.

pHuck i don't know. i don't even know how long i need to wait for signs of impovement before moving to the next attempt. i don't want to jump from one thing to another or when i do get it fixed, IF, i won't know what fixed it.

pHuck, it. i'm buying a new pH pen and recheck everything and pH the pellets and the bag of peat. guess i need a soil style pH meter too, huh?

thanks guys. here we go.

1-2 weeks at most to see a positive response. I probably should have taken more photos of mine, but to say it was getting me down is putting it mildly. I would agree that you should have accurate equipment if you're going to grow using chemical salt fertilizers.

Are you gonna transplant and be done with it?

 

[mekannic]

my inarticulability rears it's ugly head again. sorry.

In my experience, it is IMPOSSIBLE to overwater a seedling. Too acidic IMO. Also, stop using distilled water, let there be *some* mineral content in there.

i have limited experience even tho i been at it for a really long time. but to think of it, i don't think i have ever killed a seedling with water. now that i think of it, i have never killed a seedling ever. i'm like a tennis ball on the distilled thing. half tell me no, the other half scream at me for using tap. I too think it is too acidic and my attempts to reverse have backfired. guess i'll throw my last jug of distilled into a bucket with tap. was tired of lugging jugs anyway.

So, you're saying you're using the same media with other seeds, with no problems? That *is* odd.

i think this was a combo move here, my inarticulability, and a simple misunderstanding. yes and no. i have storebought started and home started seeds. and i have store bought soil and the peat. i have started peppers, tomatoes, and cantaloupe this same way as this seedling, in peat pots but they are all in soil after sprouting. that is what happened to my very first pop this go round. my first seed to pop, and die, was a free cheese. popped in a peat, went to the same soil as everything else and IIRC reacted the same as this and fell over dead. this happened before i was able to re-access my account here. the next to pop went into soil briefly, same thing, transplanted to peat with temporary signs of improvement until the next time i gave her just a little water that i had pHd per aforementioned instructions.

i have never had probs with the peat pellets in the past and am not having probs with them now with other plants. everything i got now is pretty much in soil exept for this, some started in peat pellets, some bought from the store started in soil already and repotted/transplanted with this same soil. everything is in the same soil and everything i have looks great.

Mix the rain water with tap. Leave out the distilled altogether.

done

1-2 weeks at most to see a positive response. I probably should have taken more photos of mine, but to say it was getting me down is putting it mildly. I would agree that you should have accurate equipment if you're going to grow using chemical salt fertilizers.

Are you gonna transplant and be done with it?

Quoted text

WEEKS?!?!?! damn.

i have taken some steps to try and rectify the meter questionability. hanna ac tually has a couple good youtube vids on troubleshooting etc. i have all the necessary
solutions and followed their instructions. will pull the probe from the storage solution this afternoon and recalibrate and see what happens. if things don't jive, i'm getting another new meter.

not sure about the transplant just yet. that would make it the third time in almost as few days she has been transplanted. should i be doing that so soon again?

all i got til payday is the same soil anyway. and that's how i thought this whole damn thing started. still not sure if it was ALL me with the nutes (more like nukes at this point) or a combo of me and the soil.

i guess first thing is chase the meter problem for a while. then move on to decisions as how to proceed from there.

 

[mekannic]

can't get my hanna to calibrate. one is completely broken and the electrode doesn't seem to hold up either. and the other just won't reach 7.0. 7.2 is the lowest i can get it to by turning both calibration knobs.

my cheap pen settles nicely at 7.0 and when measuring all my different waters i get:

distilled - drift. won't settle. ranges from 7.7 at first dropping to around 6.6 or lower
tap -7.9-8.0
rain water - 7.8-8.0

with phenol red in titration
distilled - 6.8 (lowest the scale goes and it matches color exactly)
tap - 8.2 (highest and it matches)
rain water - 8.2 (also matches exactly)

for some stupid reason i have always just had it in my head that pure water, like distilled water (as close to elemental water as i can obtain that i know of) was neutral.

is rain and tap water supposed to be at that pH level? i thought they would be lower. closer to neutral or even slightly acidic.

seems i could just use rain water to counteract the acidic conditions and maybe transplant. AGAIN. damnit.

 

[mekannic]

Hey, CGK, it seems there are two or three different types of seagreen. which one were you referring to?

 

[Seamaiden]

Ok, read the previous post, if you *just* transplanted the seedling then no, I would not transplant again so soon, I would do as you're doing and try to shift pH by the water source. This is where dechlorinated tap water will serve you well.

The problem with tap water is that water munis typically have to add buffers to raise the pH in order to preserve delivery lines. That, along with the treatment the EPA requires (irrespective of actual water tests) can make it a bit of a tough brew for plants to swallow. Mixing rain + tap or distilled + tap will alleviate both sides of the issue.

can't get my hanna to calibrate. one is completely broken and the electrode doesn't seem to hold up either. and the other just won't reach 7.0. 7.2 is the lowest i can get it to by turning both calibration knobs.

That's a shame, and that's a problem.

my cheap pen settles nicely at 7.0 and when measuring all my different waters i get:

distilled - drift. won't settle. ranges from 7.7 at first dropping to around 6.6 or lower
tap -7.9-8.0
rain water - 7.8-8.0

with phenol red in titration
distilled - 6.8 (lowest the scale goes and it matches color exactly)
tap - 8.2 (highest and it matches)
rain water - 8.2 (also matches exactly)

for some stupid reason i have always just had it in my head that pure water, like distilled water (as close to elemental water as i can obtain that i know of) was neutral.

is rain and tap water supposed to be at that pH level? i thought they would be lower. closer to neutral or even slightly acidic.

seems i could just use rain water to counteract the acidic conditions and maybe transplant. AGAIN. damnit.

That makes sense the the distilled water pH would bounce around, distilled water is almost pure water, has no conductivity and absolutely no resistance to pH shift. Also, IIRC, it can cause whonky readings on electronic meters.

I *am* surprised that your rainwater pH is so high. In my experience and with my rain water, I typically see a pH in the 6s, mid to high range, as I do with my RO/DI water. I'm wondering what's in your rain water that would keep the pH high. And at that pH I suggest throwing some dolomitic lime into a bucket of it to get some carbonates dissolved in there because it's not acidic enough for a good reaction to occur. I mean, you could try it, and if the DL dissolves then you're good, but in my experience the more acidic the water column the faster the DL goes into solution. And *that* is what I would want to try with this seedling.

Given these values, I'm rather stuck and can only suggest that you continue watching closely. And that's not very helpful, which means it's going to niggle at me.

 

[mekannic]

what i awoke to this morning or "the saga continues" (not by Bilbo Baggins).


pretty sure that i have my pH pen problem resolved. at least until i buy another back up. after switching electrodes and going through the hanna recommended cleaning and storage procedures to rejuvenate an electrode i am apparently getting consistent readings and able to calibrate with 7.0 and 10.0 buffers (i don't have any 4.0 yet). i have resorted to having a full compliment of pens in my shirt pocket at all times. i kinda look like bionerd with a full pocket protector.


i pHd (6.8) a mix of rain/tap last night and let sit overnight. checked again this am still good at 6.9 so i flushed and caught the runoff. all of the runoff. i have never really done this exact procedure so i am ignorant of the specific details, just kinda winging it here. after flushing and letting it drip for a bit i checked the pH of the runoff. 7.2


WTF?!?!?!


higher than what i flushed with? logic would dictate that the peat mix is WAY too BASIC?!?!?!?!?!?

i also found a tomato seedling yesterday that is suffering from the same problems. so last night i experimented with it. i took the whole peat pellet and placed it in some of the pHd water in a bowl and just let it soak for an hour or two. i hadn't planted this one yet so i didn't have to dig it up. after a little while it showed signs of DEFINITE improvement so i removed it from the bowl of water and let her be. this am she looked even better. so i proceeded with the flush but now i am really cornfused about those results.

Ok, read the previous post, if you *just* transplanted the seedling then no, I would not transplant again so soon, I would do as you're doing and try to shift pH by the water source. This is where dechlorinated tap water will serve you well.


The problem with tap water is that water munis typically have to add buffers to raise the pH in order to preserve delivery lines. That, along with the treatment the EPA requires (irrespective of actual water tests) can make it a bit of a tough brew for plants to swallow. Mixing rain + tap or distilled + tap will alleviate both sides of the issue.

i always keep five gal buckets full of tap. i fill them several days before i use them. that and all the other frequently discussed issues with it are the reasons i thought that distilled was so much better. still not sure where i got that idea in my head. everybody using r/o water i guess.

That makes sense the the distilled water pH would bounce around, distilled water is almost pure water, has no conductivity and absolutely no resistance to pH shift. Also, IIRC, it can cause whonky readings on electronic meters.


I *am* surprised that your rainwater pH is so high. In my experience and with my rain water, I typically see a pH in the 6s, mid to high range, as I do with my RO/DI water. I'm wondering what's in your rain water that would keep the pH high. And at that pH I suggest throwing some dolomitic lime into a bucket of it to get some carbonates dissolved in there because it's not acidic enough for a good reaction to occur. I mean, you could try it, and if the DL dissolves then you're good, but in my experience the more acidic the water column the faster the DL goes into solution. And *that* is what I would want to try with this seedling.


Given these values, I'm rather stuck and can only suggest that you continue watching closely. And that's not very helpful, which means it's going to niggle at me.

trust me. it's niggling at me too. and me three. i am niggled beyond annoyance right now.

after hearing you say that about distilled water, yeah, of course it all makes sense now, rings a bell, too. i have read that before, probably several times, i read chemistry on occasion, and have just read that in a chemistry book recently. my remembryonics seems to be losing fluid to old age and wear and tear. what i read these days doesn't absorb as well as it used to and what i absorb i frequently lose to leakage or overfilling too rapidly.


i am just guessing that the pH of the rain water may have something to do with the collection procedure, off the roof. of an old house. so maybe it's leaching something. may be due for some rain coming due in the forecast, i will conduct further experiments on that. i have numerous free harbor freight tarps, perhaps i'll hone my skills at survival rainwater collection.


well, anyways, now i am kinda stumped on how to proceed with the seedling. should i flush again and recheck? maybe i made a mistake, skipped something, etc.

or should i give it time to respond and gear up for further testing?


oh, yeah, one thing i almost forgot to mention (please refer to the remembryonics are failing issue above), is that i do go back and reread these posts so that i don't get out of sequence on recommended steps or possible solutions, and that i may keep everything fresh and in order, etc. and to make sure i don't do something twice or .....

well, you get the drift, trying to do it right because i can't be adding my own steps in there right now, i will screw it up.


thanks to everybody for everything and i'll just keep trudging along. it's a shame to lose this one if i do, it is one of a kind to me.

 

[Seamaiden]

You said you experimented on that tomato seedling and got it looking better? I'd try it with that seed, because as long as it's looking like that it's unlikely to survive.

 

[mekannic]

yeah i'm chasing my tail on this one. causing too much mental stress. i went ahead and tried it and so far nothing. but i have run myself around in circles and didn't take good enough notes that i am just gonna let go and let Shiva. i have had some other seeds finally pop after a long time and i had kinda given up on them and they look fine so far. so i'm just gonna have to live with the disappointment of not having a strain of lil Bastard in my collection. it was supposed to be a high CBD strain and i only got two seeds and one didn't pop. i am just gonna keep babying this one and if it survives then great, but if not oh well. maybe another day.

gonna try and stay focused on the positive and turn my attention to the others and try not to kill any more. i just wish i knew for sure what i did so can prevent history yada yada yada.....

i had some pop well after i had given up on them so now i have more than i have room for anyway. time to go hiking i guess.

thank all you gals and guys for all the help. i will post an update if it does or if it dies and let it go at that.

 

[mekannic]

i do have another related pH question though.

can overly high pH levels cause exactly the same physical symptom manifestations as extremely low pH? or will the pHysical appearance of the plant be different with each?

i have tried to do a few forum searches that include "pH", but it is an excluded term because it is too short. is there a way to forcibly include short terms in a forum search? i have tried quotes and that didn't work either.

 

[ZONER]

Stop using the peat pellets, and or peat by its self

 

[mekannic]

thank you zoner for the input but i already have. i may not have mentioned that yet in this thread and just got it confused with another thread. i have completely reversed my position on peat for several reasons. peat harvesting damages the environment. (click for info)

but that also doesn't answer the question i posed which was not about peat at all but rather an alkaline environment, not acidic.

i am curious as to what a plant would look like if you tried to kill it with high, very very high pH levels?? i, however, am NOT curious enough to conduct such a blasphemous experiment. i just want to store the information in my remembryonics for future reference, "just in case".

i assure you i have stopped using peat for anything for several reasons. i only used them out of ignorance and past experience has been good, or so i thought. who knows, maybe i could have been so much more productive and happy with the results had i never used peat pellets in the past.

i also did not know the difference between topsoil, garden soil, potting soil and potting mix until just recently. i have also decided to either stop the use of any kind of soil altogther or use it sparingly mixed with other things such as mix. i have seen other people post about using a soilless mix and had no clue that a potting mix did not contain soil or other organic material (by definition anyway).

i am on a constant everyday adventure to cure my ignorance. curiosity may have killed the cat, but ignorance will kill your plants.

 

[ZONER]

thank you zoner for the input but i already have. i may not have mentioned that yet in this thread and just got it confused with another thread. i have completely reversed my position on peat for several reasons. peat harvesting damages the environment. (click for info)

but that also doesn't answer the question i posed which was not about peat at all but rather an alkaline environment, not acidic.

i am curious as to what a plant would look like if you tried to kill it with high, very very high pH levels?? i, however, am NOT curious enough to conduct such a blasphemous experiment. i just want to store the information in my remembryonics for future reference, "just in case".

i assure you i have stopped using peat for anything for several reasons. i only used them out of ignorance and past experience has been good, or so i thought. who knows, maybe i could have been so much more productive and happy with the results had i never used peat pellets in the past.

i also did not know the difference between topsoil, garden soil, potting soil and potting mix until just recently. i have also decided to either stop the use of any kind of soil altogther or use it sparingly mixed with other things such as mix. i have seen other people post about using a soilless mix and had no clue that a potting mix did not contain soil or other organic material (by definition anyway).

i am on a constant everyday adventure to cure my ignorance. curiosity may have killed the cat, but ignorance will kill your plants.

Only thing I can do is send a whole lotta good KARMA your way mekannic ...:happy:

 

[mekannic]

i'll take that, too. thank you. and back atcha bro.

i have achieved the caption of "farmer". i don't think i deserve that yet, can i be downgraded to a more appropriate level?

i have given up on the one i had so much trouble with and chalked it up to genetics or something magical that wasn't meant to be. i have others that are doing just fine. this was one of a kind to me is all.

how in the world do i search the forum for "pH"???????

 

[Protaide]

-snip-
i am curious as to what a plant would look like if you tried to kill it with high, very very high pH levels?? i, however, am NOT curious enough to conduct such a blasphemous experiment. i just want to store the information in my remembryonics for future reference, "just in case".
-snip-
i also did not know the difference between topsoil, garden soil, potting soil and potting mix until just recently. i have also decided to either stop the use of any kind of soil altogther or use it sparingly mixed with other things such as mix. i have seen other people post about using a soilless mix and had no clue that a potting mix did not contain soil or other organic material (by definition anyway).

i am on a constant everyday adventure to cure my ignorance. curiosity may have killed the cat, but ignorance will kill your plants.

I kinda missed some of your progress, but it appears things may be looking up for you; hopefully. I saw that you got a pH reading back with the MG peat. Since it came out above 7.0 that means they DID have lime in it, just didn't list it I guess. About your last note in the quote, heh I always tend to have murphy's law follow me around too. Don't worry there as its' learning.

"If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward".
Thomas A. Edison

About your question with plant effects for just pH; you could compare one of the charts in Seamaidens' sig. thread. One is here: https://www.thcfarmer.com/community...ng-nutrient-deficiency-diagnoses.60485/page-5

You can see though, in your recent case (in soil 7.2) there was no nutrient lock out of any major element besides possibly some phosphorus and a bit of iron micro. In soil if you did go up much more or below 5.5; you'd have availability issues and the specimen would show corresponding deficiencies. Another point to consider though about pH and to use a general analogy; One could perceive pH as an electrical charge in say volts. A pH of 7.0 would relate to 0 volts or ground. As pH goes lower, you develop an overall negative voltage (charge); so pH of 6 = -1V, pH 5 = -2V, pH 4 = -3V etc. Similarly higher pH results in an overall positive voltage (charge). So, pH 8 = +1V, pH 9 = +2V, pH 10 = +3V etc.
I know many could consider this a poor way to look at this; each field has it's own terms. H+ or OH-, to Electropositive metals, to postive and negative electricity. However, in all cases we are considering an excess or deficiency of electrons and a gradient between to points that affects charge movement / reaction / oxidation etc.
I do not know what the specific pH (hence electrical charge) of roots themselves are; however I believe that can be altered by the plant to some degree. In the ranges of pH that this type of plant is grown (pH 5.8 - 6.5) and given that a lower pH can increase uptake; does tend to suggest a root pH possibly in the 6.5-7.0 range. It seems at higher pH's (7.0) nutrient uptake is much lowered even though charts show availability. Presumably the potential charge (voltage) difference between the medium and root surface is minimal and charge (Ions / nutrients) cannot flow. E.G- Roots @ pH of 7.0 and nutrient solution of 5.8 = potential difference of 1.2V from analogy. Whereas, pH of 6.5 would only net a 0.5V difference. So, at high pH even though elements are "Chemically" available; they may not be absorb-able due to lack of , or reversed potential difference with roots (ion channels) I'm sure squiggly can provide a more technical explanation in H+ / OH- terms.

For your pale plant you just had, since pH was high (meaning lime) I would theorize the ppm's of run-off could have also been high. If the mix had set at the store wet or over a long time; much of the lime and some fertilizer would have reacted. If you still have the soil around you may check ppm's to see, but possibly that could have been the issue. If a bunch of Ca was in the soil, it would have locked some K and P out most notably. High ppm (ec) would also have hindered nutrient uptake along with the high ph.

Sorry to ramble and pop back in, but hopefully some of this can help. I've "gotten away" with potting soils for many years, but am going away from them finally. Although good brands can work decent, they just really aren't designed for certain plants. As well many brands lack the quality control needed for consistent results.

 

[Seamaiden]

Plants and microbes are able to alter pH nearby to some degree.

i do have another related pH question though.

can overly high pH levels cause exactly the same physical symptom manifestations as extremely low pH? or will the pHysical appearance of the plant be different with each?

i have tried to do a few forum searches that include "pH", but it is an excluded term because it is too short. is there a way to forcibly include short terms in a forum search? i have tried quotes and that didn't work either.

Only via Google can you search that way. Add @thcfarmer.com and you'll get the hits for the farm, too.

I don't see why too high a pH level wouldn't cause the same issues.

 

[mekannic]

I kinda missed some of your progress, but it appears things may be looking up for you; hopefully. I saw that you got a pH reading back with the MG peat. Since it came out above 7.0 that means they DID have lime in it, just didn't list it I guess. About your last note in the quote, heh I always tend to have murphy's law follow me around too. Don't worry there as its' learning.

"If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward".
Thomas A. Edison

no, everything failed. i am sure i did something wrong checking that pH. it hasn't shriveled up completely and died for sure, but there is no saving it now. i had others pop late that surprised me and in the meantime i had planted a couple more. now i have more than i have room for and they all look just fine despite the peat pellets.

well, all but one. one came out headless, y'all gotta go check out all the pics i posted. if i get a lot of response i'll post more

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community...-gotta-see-this-no-cotyledons-headless.63868/

I just read that quote in a chemistry book but it was worded a little different, i paraphrase, 'i didn't fail, i just found ten thousand ways it didn't work'. i like that. i definitely "don't fail" a lot, but i sure seem to find every possible way things don't work.

but the again "Failure is ALWAYS an option". Mythbusters.

Only via Google can you search that way. Add @thcfarmer.com and you'll get the hits for the farm, too.

I don't see why too high a pH level wouldn't cause the same issues.

thanks SM, and that means the same issues would cause the same physical manifestations i assume. so it's possible i could have based it to death as well. i used distilled and/or rainwater and maybe even some tap close to the end and except for the distilled not registering (because i forgot, it has nothing in it to change the conductivity......) everything seemed to have abnormally high pH levels. anyway, it's over now but the crying, just don't want a repeat, no peat pun intended.

and yes you are right, peat does have it's place. i need some for my flytraps, but i can't find any that does not have nutrients added. even trace nutes will kill a flytrap from what i understand.

y'all go check out the pics i posted of a headless sprout in the cannabis photography forum. it looks like the root grew up. very weird looking. the second abnormal phenomenon i have had in this same batch and i have never seen either before. i have had the triple headed plants before (not sure of correct taxonomy).

 

[Seamaiden]

My mother keeps flytraps, usually with her orchids. Don't know how she's gonna do it moving to the desert now...

What's maddening is that I've seen so many people use these things with zero problems, I'm willing to be you have, too.

 

[mekannic]

not sure i understand what you mean?

do you mean you believe i have a flytrap but no fly problem?

i don't live in a state where they (the flytraps) occur naturally.

we usually don't have a big problem with flies on the inside of the house, although from time to time we do but it never lasts for long. we do have a problem with some kind of little moths inside i can't get rid of. don't know where they're coming from. seem to be coming from the pantry. i thought it was a problem with infested flour and stuff and threw out a whole bunch of stuff but they persist.

but i also do not keep the flytrap in the house. it stays outside where we have plenty of flies and every other kind of flying, biting, stinging insect known to man.

but that is also not why i keep it. if it is an indictment of sorts, then yes, guilty as charged. i keep it because i had one as a child and i want one. i don't keep animals as pets, i would rather keep plants. i like them better. and i want to prove to myself i can keep one alive. so far so good. it is still growing.

 

[Seamaiden]

My mother keeps Venus flytraps as well as pitcher plants, outside. To the best of my knowledge, these plants require a high RH and warm temps. Thus, when she moves to the desert in a couple of weeks, I don't know what she's going to do with her carnivorous and epiphytic plants, she'll be going through a lot of water.

The second remark was specific to the peat pellets. I know a lot of people use them, like my father, with zero problems, like my father.

I love growing weed, but I still prefer animals. All day long. No indictments, sorry for that! Terse replies can lead to misunderstandings.