Future of the Seed Bizz

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Z

Zoolander

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I want to grow your Jack cross I have KG , I've never grow Jack and man your HB dry sift makes me know another one I need for my personal stash . I can keep things a year plus curing so I'll bet that HB would rock in a year in the jar
 
Greyskull

Greyskull

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Many of them I think are way overrated and have only gotten so big in terms of hype because many people don't grow from seed very often and when they do, the seeds produce not very good plants in the main. The answer to this is two-fold, firstly people need to stop being so lazy and secondly, the quality of seeds needs to improve.


I am not being lazy by consciously deciding to not support big headed hacks with unholy amounts cash because I decide to paint with the same colors they use for their "projects" that are not stabilized or even tested.

When someone truly breeds a superior plant I will be all over it. Just like my SourDieselxSourBubble....

So get at it breeders!
 
B

British_Hempire

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dutch seeds that are from before 1998 is gooooooood stuff. Zoo i think when you plant some old packs you will be suprised how big the difrence is to today's. Grow some old sensi stock ore some new he he he................

I agree, in 1998 the Dutch Geoden law put a stop to legal seed production and since then the quality has declined drastically, largely due to the efficiency of the Dutch Police in finding and busting grow rooms. Seed production was driven underground so the sizes of crops for selection got tiny and in fact, hardly any breeding has been done since, they are just using the same old clones as no-one in Amsterdam ever starts seeds to look for anything new anymore. Every company has had problems with busts and losing breeding plants, they replace the plants from seed but they aren't growing the big numbers to find the best plants anymore, just using any decent plants they find from a tiny selection - closet hacking it's called. I was told recently about one company who gave a backup cut of one of their key mothers to a friend to look after, their grow was bust so they last their original and wanted the backup back, but they owed the guy a few hundred euros so he wouldn't return it and flowered it out instead. Have the seed co stopped selling the lines which contain this female? Have they shite, they must have replaced the female with another one from seed.
 
B

baggins

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So it sounds like you think that there will be 2 distinct factions for the future. One that continues with the same old, same old; and a second more boutique, small volume, new genetics, custom breeders. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
B

British_Hempire

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I am not being lazy by consciously deciding to not support big headed hacks with unholy amounts cash because I decide to paint with the same colors they use for their "projects" that are not stabilized or even tested.

When someone truly breeds a superior plant I will be all over it. Just like my SourDieselxSourBubble....

So get at it breeders!

Well, not lazy perhaps, but still nto a good breeding practice. The ECSD cut isn't worth breeding with imho, it is the result of accidental pollination by a hermaphroditic plant, in fact it has more than one hermaphroditic accidental mating in it's lineage, and correspondingly, it carries the intersex trait, this alone should disqualify it from any breeding programme. You could, of course, outcross it then work the line for many gens to remove the trait, but I don't think this is a good route to take, as the polyhybrid nature of the ECSD means it is very unstable. Other undesirable traits of the ECSD are it's huge stretch and long flowering time.

A proper breeder wanting to create a diesel seedline would not use the ECSD cut and instead would breed a new diesel line from scratch. The major components of ECSD are the Chemdog 91 and Super Skunk, but Chemdog 91 wouldn't be considered as a breeding plant by any serious breeder for similar reasons to the ECSD - it's a bagseed of unknown lineage, contains an intersex trait etc. Where does this leave the breeder wanting to make a diesel line? Easy, a shitload of hard work growing out different lines finding ones that have a fuel-like smell/taste.

Breeding isn't easy, it's time consuming and requires a lot of resources, the only reason I encourage people to breed their own lines at home is that you'll probably do a better job than the big companies do these days, the major factor being motivation - the amateur breeder tryign to create somethign for personal taste is motivated by passion and personal need, the companies are motivated by profit and ego, neither of which is of any use in the garden.
 
Greyskull

Greyskull

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I feel ya BH on that last paragraph.... except the ego part. ego is what drives me to do a better job each crop. always have to top myself... like a competition. its good.

BTW according to the source of my sdxsb plant, BOG is the dude who put that plant together and did the chucking... hope you don't think I did. I haven't starting chucking pollen yet....

You really don't like anything that is considered nice in cali man, do you?. You come across with this serious sense of loathing towards it.

Its cool man. I hate shitty brick sativas....
 
Z

Zoolander

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I'd be proud to be the guy who hacked that cross GS because that shit is awesome . I'll take a great 60 day strain that people line up for and has some decent weight to it fo sho . I'm outta here because this thread has become a agree to disagree thread now:scared0016:
 
B

British_Hempire

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So it sounds like you think that there will be 2 distinct factions for the future. One that continues with the same old, same old; and a second more boutique, small volume, new genetics, custom breeders. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think that's gonna be the case, sadly. Here on THCfarmer we have some excellent new genes available that folks should be excited about, but no, they sell poorly because they aren't a Kush or a Chemdog hybrid.

I'll give you a great example, and I'm not doing this to boost sales of this product or to hurt anyone else's, just using it as an example to support an argument. Chiskei by Tropical Seeds, it's an 8 week pure sativa from South Africa, and believe me, the words 'pure sativa' and '8 weeks' don't often combine! Also, it's a stable IBL, great breeding stock, what more do you want? I know, let's rename it 'Super Kushdawg Haze' and I bet it will sell better.

I don't even look at any of the threads about Kush anymore, don't get me wrong, I like a nice kushy smoke, the soft kush taste appeals to me, but no matter how much I liked Kush I wouldn't want to grow an elite Kush cut or a feminised seedline made from one. I would go find my own excellent female from the same source that all these damn Kushes came from in the first place - indica cultivars from the northern portion of the Indian subcontinent! They are appearing now hybrids of some such cultivars from a number of sellers - e.g. Deep Chunk, X18, Mazar-i-Sharif, etc.

Let me use Bubba Kush as an example, all Bubba happens to be is an exceptional pheno of an old indica IBL, probably a worked descendant of one of the original indica seed imports to the US of the 1970s, Dabney Blue and Indiana Bubblegum are also examples of select phenos from those old indica imports. Folks see Bubba pics online, hear great reviews and they become fixated on getting hold of that particular cut, well I say that is a bad thing, instead, why not search out good indica IBLs and look for phenos that are as good as Bubba, trust me, they can be found, they may suit your personal tastes better than Bubba would.

I've posted these pics before, but I think they happen to provide a great example of what I'm talking about. This is a bud from a plant that is called Kentish Creme, I was there when it was named, as was the guy who found it from seed and the guy who identified it as a keeper and preserved it as a cut and passed it around, so I know the provenance 100%. The guy who found it is married to a Jamaican lady and while visiting family in Jamaica he met an auntie who grew amazing cannabis in her little garden in the Kentish area of rural Jamaica. He brought home a small number of seeds his auntie gave him and grew one in his back garden, it turned out to be amazing and it was cloned and became Kentish Creme. I was gifted the remaining 3 seeds and tried germing them, I got one to germ and it was a female, identical in every way to KC and I couldn't tell them apart, which indicates a stable IBL. What is it? I think it's an indica that has become acclimated to Jamaica, probably over 3 decades or more, it probably originally came from the Hindu Kush region. If I were to make seeds with this female with the intention of selling them, I'm sure calling it Kentish Creme would not sell as many seeds as if I called it Jamaican Kush or Chocolate Kush (it tastes like chocolate) cos of the current fixation with the word Kush.
 
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B

British_Hempire

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I feel ya BH on that last paragraph.... except the ego part. ego is what drives me to do a better job each crop. always have to top myself... like a competition. its good.

BTW according to the source of my sdxsb plant, BOG is the dude who put that plant together and did the chucking... hope you don't think I did. I haven't starting chucking pollen yet....

You really don't like anything that is considered nice in cali man, do you?. You come across with this serious sense of loathing towards it.

Its cool man. I hate shitty brick sativas....

Jeez, I really couldn't give a toss where something is from, Cali or elsewhere. There are many things from Cali I adore - Trainwreck and Haze to name but two.

Thanks for the stupid comment about 'shitty brick sativas' you still got a bee in your bonnet cos I posted a pic of a brick of schwag that I found on the internet? This is a serious discussion thread, keep the snide comments out thankyou, it helps no-one.
 
O

ograskal

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I've personally ran a shitload of Dutch genetics (not too many before 98 though) and dont get me wrong there was a few decent ladies I ran into but nothing really spectacular and worth keeping....Since 2001 I have been collecting Elite clone only strains from around the world and its true lots of them are over-rated and mostly hyped but there are a few Elites that DO live up to the Hype and are Bomb as fuck and i would never let them leave my garden...I am always Looking for top notch genetics whether from clone or seed and mainly becuz me and my family love smoking the best herb we can find.....So far all the best have come from these so called Elites....If theres some Dutch gentics out there thats better than my mothers I have please point me in that direction....I am now going to be popping some Widow Beans from Shanti hoping to find a killer mother...I grew out the Sharon Widow clone and She was decent.....In my experiences with seeds, the best seeds i have grown were made from these Elite clone only strains....Its the best of both worlds for me..I get to grow out Elite genetics and still get to have the fun and anticipation of finding another gem......If this doesnt make sense itc cuz I'm high as fukk from the White Fire..lol..~ogr
 
B

British_Hempire

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Makes complete sense raskal and I agree, some of the elites are truly fantastic, just the obsession with elites has meant a proliferation of cuts and an even bigger proliferation of the hype surrounding them.

I also agree that some Elites make superb offspring, but not all, Bubab is a superb breeding plant as it's highly inbred and stable and doesn't have an intersex trait, ECSD on the other hand is an example of an elite that while bomb, isn't good for breeding.

I'm not calling for an end to elite cuts, I just want to see some balance, a limiting of the hype and some real perspective put back into things.

Dutch mothers that have stood the test of time, off the top of my head:

A5 Haze (NL5 x Haze)
C5 Haze (NL5 x Haze)
Mexican Haze (A5 x Mexican male)
Mallahullu (skunk1)
Alegria (skunk1)
Citral (the old Posi clone only)

There are more, but the Dutch scene is a money driven one (ain't they all?) and the flavour of the month thing works there just like anywhere else, so you see trends come and go, a few years ago it was diesel (started off by Soma and the Dampkring) and now Haze is all the rage again, the Kush thing will probably hit Holland soon so I expect folks will be dusting off their old Master Kush and Hindu Kush mothers! lol
 
O

ograskal

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Yeah i know there are still some great old skool Dutch mothers out there that people still have but where can i find some Dutch Genetics (seeds) today , that can hold a candle to the Elite clone only mothers that I've kept...I'm not a huge pure Sativa fan myslef...I prefer Indica and Sativa Hybrids that finish in 10 weeks or less that put out nice dense,stinky, frosty, tastey, potent nugz.....Thats what I'm lookin for....Just my personal preference..~ogr
 
Greyskull

Greyskull

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its all good bh not trying to stir the pot in a bad way
i am gonna leave all this breeding talk to all you seed dudes
i am gonna go check my clones.


maybe those pics did leave a mark hahaha

carry on
 
F

FastForward

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To give another perspective, there's a lot of farmers out here who just grow from seeds to smoke....no breeding....no selection. I'm one of those farmers, and all we want, generally speaking, are beans that will do what they say they will. It's a nightmare planning your own smoke if plants/phenos come in wildly differently than described.

IMHO the breeder should openly state whether the seeds are stable or not, and if not how many main phenos to expect. I'm happy to buy unstable seeds and to look for interesting genetics, but I also want to buy seeds that are stable. There are too many people selling untested genetics and making broad claims about progeny that are based on conjecture (and at insane prices, but that's another story and is market driven).

IMHO the IBLs and BX lines should be where the big money is at....something that has taken a breeder time and skill to work, and should be reflected in the value/cost.
 
B

British_Hempire

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Yeah i know there are still some great old skool Dutch mothers out there that people still have but where can i find some Dutch Genetics (seeds) today , that can hold a candle to the Elite clone only mothers that I've kept...I'm not a huge pure Sativa fan myslef...I prefer Indica and Sativa Hybrids that finish in 10 weeks or less that put out nice dense,stinky, frosty, tastey, potent nugz.....Thats what I'm lookin for....Just my personal preference..~ogr

That would be the preference of many growers raskal, I'm not sure what to advise as I haven't grown any Dutch indicas I can think of for a good 8-9 years, but back in the day, there were some corkers. My best suggestion is to explore some landrace indicas such as Nepali, Lebanese, Pakistani and Dark Kush from Bluehemp Seeds, or some of reeferman's old indica IBLs when they are available again. Some folks will scoff at me for saying this, but KC Brains gets overlooked and he shouldn't, he has superb genetics just he doesn't have high volume sales so his seeds often end up sat on a shelf of a supplier not being stored properly so suffer from low germ rates, also, they need a lower temp to germ than many seeds, a consequence of being created outdoors. KS has a few lines that should be right up your alley raskal, look at some of his mosly indica offerings such as Mango (huge yielder, sticky, greasy indica) and White KC (a right resin bomb).

its all good bh not trying to stir the pot in a bad way
i am gonna leave all this breeding talk to all you seed dudes
i am gonna go check my clones.


maybe those pics did leave a mark hahaha

carry on

It is all good dude, misunderstandings happen, especially on the internet.
 
O

ograskal

Guest
I'll pass on the KC Brains....Been there done that!!...I was thinking of Old Skool Reeferman genetics myself...Seems like the older stuff is always the better...~ogr
 
The Joker

The Joker

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This is a great thread. I've gotten poo pooed before for saying that $200.00 s1's from some elite clone are not worth it. That you can get as good or better weed from seeds less than half that price. But there is a mentality that if it costs more, it must be better.

I've had plenty of home made crosses that I made or got from friends that were excellent and I didn't put any more work into than many of these "breeders' who ride on hype.

Northern Lights ( the old stuff) is awesome weed. It was the second weed with a name I ever smoked in the 80's.( Real mauie wowie from Hawaii being the first) People talked about it with a hushed tone. Now people could care less about it.

I've wasted so much money on bunk seeds that were bland and boring. I threw away a bagseed indica mother that was some of the best smoke I ever had because i wanted to make room for the Bog and Rez beans I bought way back when. None of them was as good as that bagseed ( from a grow collective in Bolinas, California).


On the flip side though....say you're a breeder and you spend years making a stable line from landrace genetics etc. Some hack buys your seeds , make's f2's or random crosses with it to an elite clone ,calls them the same name and sells them for 150 a pop. Where's the incentive to do all the work real breeders do.

In business , by the time you are successful with something, you are already being ripped off. Sad , but true.

As far as the future, no idea. But as long as new growers come on and get lured by hype, there will be a sucker born every minute.

What I like about this site is that it encourages people to have honest discussion without personal attack. This way we can all learn, really learn about this hobby.

Peace.
 
D

Dagga

Guest
I think the direction of seed making is heading in the right direction! The fact that we have the ability to order genetics via the internet has expanded the gene pool exponentially! Sure some of the pool water has piss in it, but for the most part some of the pool is sparkling fucking brilliant.
I really believe the more "closet hackers" there are the better we will be in the long run. I am privy to many a landrace genes and can honestly say most dont touch some of these hybrids that are now out and about.
The way i look at it is like "the chicken and the egg"
the clone makes the seed, from the seed you find the clone!
chuck that fuckin pollen and rise rebel rise!
dagga
 
Z

Zoolander

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I also feel that us small guys working with the right gear is the way to go , I think we will make something that can surpass some of these cuts out right now .
 
7

7rayos

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Thanks folks, your answers help people (ie., me)to learn to recognize what they want and what are they playing with, rather than learning everything through the breeder/dealer point of view. I mean, it's difficult to read for instance "this strain, to be honest, is quite so-so and tells me fuck all and has a dull taste, so i'd chuck it out if there wasn't the possibility to get a few bucks". Instead would be something like "a very recognisable smoke, full of woody fragances, but it won't smash you down like others, giving just a happy social high". That, of course, is no inherent to mj, but the market in general.
For one thing, there's a distinct and big difference between now and a few years ago, that being the genetics used to breed. Now it's quite difficult to get a light marijuana, as most reputed breeders work with all-potent stuff and therefore the results are always mind blowing one way or another.
The way for growers to go should be then getting a pheno-rich strain, finding exactly what you like and keep that and work on it for stability, but that's a breeder job that most are not interested because the amount of time and knowledge involved. So it'd be a decent note to add, as someone said here, whether we're buying a pheno-rich or a stabilized strain.
But i also think the market has a dynamics of its own and in five years time there will be a lot of people knowing better their own tastes, thus being more exigent with the product they buy. I'm glad BH put the chiskei as an example of an almost bygone world, where a breeder has greenhouses and autoctonous strains to work with. But it's also because the improvement of the gene pool available makes it easier for getting similar (in success terms) results in a closet. In fact, more likely as closet breeding play on worked strains. Still, i think the job involved should reflect in the price, but i agree the envelope still sells better than what holds inside.
More proffesional breeders in five years? Somehow, i don't think so. Today's established ones will make a closer circle. GH today's breeding and selling antics will prove to be just flash in a pan, but at the same time they've got the means to change that anytime, if the market asks for it. I hope once their vaults are so packed with gold and diamonds they'll do some altruistic work too, such trying for new tastes using their infrastructure. I say that because i don't see anybody following their lines, giving them no purpose for improving.
Let's just hope in five years we'll all be happier with whatever turn it takes, notwithstanding that we're now creating that future market. Sorry for my english, i'm trying too hard.
 
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