Helicopters with Infra-red cameras - should we be worried?

  • Thread starter John Smith Esq.
  • Start date
  • Tagged users None
J

John Smith Esq.

242
0
Y'all have to have a license to own a TV set?
Jeezuz H. Keerist im glad im an American.

yep, and from all that cash the Britsh Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) was created giving us advert free TV, Radio and Webmedia. They currently make some of the best wildlife docs and Dramas on the planet. Although Eastenders is shit. jk'ing

So let me get this straight. As far as IR detection goes the amount of light being used isnt as important as the temp of the room/exhaust? For example: lets say im running 100 lights but theyre all air cooled and the grow room stays at 75 degrees with insulated walls. To my understanding this wouldnt look like much on the screen... assuming exhaust temp is reasonable

you nailed it, IR is invisible to our eyes so visible light has very little to do with how FLIR works directly, however visible light is an extremely small part of the electromagnetic spectrum so most bulbs will give off other wavelenghts as well as visible, HPS for example along with visible light will provide a fair amount of IR with some UV too.
FLIR detects heat levels above ambient, thats the important bit, if air outside is 70 degrees and you vent 75 degree air it will be visible becuase its different to whats outside already.
 
P

paulycali

2,479
163
it is illegal for the law to use flir against you in a court of law. And you cannot obtain a search warrant from flir detection. law does it anyway and figures out other ways to obtain a search warrant. flir cannot see directly into your home all it can see is heat. they are looking for either an exhaust from a growroom which looks like a huge fire coming out the side of your exhaust from your growroom or house. those are what they look for in drive by flir operations. helicopter operations will see heat coming from a basement or growroom easier than detecting an exhaust outlet. either way flir sucks and as long as no one who lives at the residence gets caught leaving the home with pounds they cannot get a search warrant for using flir
 
devious d

devious d

378
18
yes i watched the same programme it was the power companys equipment the police were using, it was mainly small heat signitures around windows and in lofts that were showing up, but just a few streets seemed to have grows in every street,it was the guy from the power company who was actually identifying were he thought the grows were, a lot of the people caught was down to people stealing the electric they were using even the bigger more commercial grows. yes our cousins in the states dont relize how good they have it, legal grows, despenseries, being classed as a medical patient, the goverment hear just went backwards same penalties as meth amphete:sick0018: FUCK THEM KEEP GROWING:bandit
 
D

dooobster

92
0
That could fund Social Security for the old folks

Y'all have to have a license to own a TV set?
Jeezuz H. Keerist im glad im an American.

Exactly what I was thinking too, but then I thought... They have universal health care, and their old people probably don't have to worry about how they're going to live after they retire.

Think about that for a minute... If every US household paid, say a $10 dollar per TV per year license fee, how many TV's are in operation daily in the USA? The annual money figure that could be raised is a pretty big number. Lots of zeroes.

I know I wouldn't mind that $30 a year if I knew that money went toward making sure some things in life were taken care of later on down the road, if I needed it.

Here in the USA though, I'm sure that money would just be used to make somebody else extremely rich, and us normal everyday folks would still just be fucked.... LOL
 
J

John Smith Esq.

242
0
Right another thing that is just ridiculous, people in the UK pay VAT on Seeds and Grow Equipment and the Electricity needed to run those. And it is illegal????!!!!!????!!!!????!!!

Imagine calling your lekky provider and saying..

"oh, im paying ÂŁ50 less this quarter because some of my power was used illiegally and i shouldnt pay VAT on that."

seriously? VAT is just another way to distribute tax more fairly across the economic range of citizens within the UK, ie the more stuff you buy the more Tax you pay, or in other words, Rich people pay more. so in short i cant see how it would be used as a policing tool, and beside if you are in fact doing something illegal the last thing you want to do is advertise that by kicking up a fuss about what VAT you pay??

I feel that something similar to what Spain have in place would be benefitial, a plant limit rather equipment/size limit, but everytime we as a courtry politically move toward that (like lowering to class c) the Daily Mail get all upperty and start a hate campaign among the middle classes by creating a poster case out of one bad experience.. some people would die if they took penecillin but that doesnt mean we should all stop using it..

you have a very good point about Medical Research Facilities producing against the law, there are mammouth grow facilities owned by the NHS to extract components believed to have anti inflamitary and anti phsycotic properties derived from cannaboids for use in UK hospitals. All very hypocritical though imo.

sorry got a little :sign0006: there...

here in the UK they can use FLIR without a warrant and search a house based on this alone. As shown in the programme they also use pictures from Google Earth to see if windows have condesation etc. the only saving grace is at the moment they tend to target commercial ops only, the recreational grower is fairly safe unless that person starts flappin their jaw.
 
U

ugmjfarmer

156
28
To make it clear you can NOT get rid of IR radiation without eliminating the heatsource itself - this would break the laws of physics

You could always use water cooled lights to remove the heat entirely from the room, therefore not creating the typical heat emission. Then a simple air conditioner looking box on the outside of the house would emit all your heat signature. Or if you used a drain to waste water cooling setup, this heat would be removed through the drain of the home underground, and there would be no signature alone aside from the hydro bill. A well would remove this again entirely if you returned the waste water to the well, but you would need to mask the return line underground as well for best results.

VAT is just another way to distribute tax more fairly across the economic range of citizens within the UK, ie the more stuff you buy the more Tax you pay, or in other words, Rich people pay more.

A tax that relies on the CONSUMERS to PURCHASE goods in order to fund the actions of the public is actually a regressive tax that ends up taxing the lower and "middle" classes more than the upper classes. This is always the case in any society and much so in america as well. As the middle class spend more they are taxed more, simple sliding them into a lower class altogether eliminating the middle class as time goes on. A simple wikipedia search found out some facts to present that YOU are taxed more than the power company. Also, a simple google search points out the loopholes for upper class people as well.

The real problem is fractional reserve banking in combination with this all, in a matter of short time we are all pinched into the lower class unless you are government. Then you have a form of Facism, which both the UK and the USA and the EU have been forcing on the world. We are about to go to war over all these things, brilliant isn't it?

Regards.
 
S

STUPPA

32
6
here in the UK they can use FLIR without a warrant and search a house based on this alone. As shown in the programme they also use pictures from Google Earth to see if windows have condesation etc. the only saving grace is at the moment they tend to target commercial ops only, the recreational grower is fairly safe unless that person starts flappin their jaw.

There must still be a fair amount of guess work and speculative searches going on because there are many reasons why a house could be outputting heat .
If you look at how much heat comes out of a central heating outlet for instance it is way more than would come out of even a fairly large grow.

I can see that they could look for heat leaks around windows and loft spaces but again look at the difference between someone having old drafty single glazed windows and someone who has double glazed PVC ,there must be a big difference .

What i'm getting at is how do they sort the wheat from the chaff ,so to speak? .Surely they cannot go round breaking into every single property that has heat escaping from it ? .

It might be a loft conversion with an A/C unit in or a heater ,something that has nothing to do with growing at all ,or one house might have a better vented loft space to the property next door so it would appear different on their scan , there are just so many variables .
 
J

John Smith Esq.

242
0
There must still be a fair amount of guess work and speculative searches going on because there are many reasons why a house could be outputting heat.

I think your right mate which is why i believe smallish personal grows are pretty safe, larger ops will have tell tale signs which could be caused by something else, a combi-boiler for exmple, but they probably just add it together and make a judgement call, im sure they enter houses and dont make an arrest all the time but every time that happens someone gets a bollocking off the sergent so they will be bloody sure they want to go into a house in the first place. Plus they have to pay for any damage when entering a property whether they make an arrest or not, again good reason not to raid willy nilly.

its like that quote off layer cake - "it is only very stupid people that think the law is stupid".."know thy enemy"

You could always use water cooled lights to remove the heat entirely from the room, therefore not creating the typical heat emission. Then a simple air conditioner looking box on the outside of the house would emit all your heat signature. Or if you used a drain to waste water cooling setup, this heat would be removed through the drain of the home underground, and there would be no signature alone aside from the hydro bill. A well would remove this again entirely if you returned the waste water to the well, but you would need to mask the return line underground as well for best results.

you have a technically resourceful thought proces there ugmj, i like this kind of problem solving too - there are many ways to reduce/mask/eliminate IR... using LED's is also another viable method and wouldnt require any tech outside a normal grow operation.

Also ive seen a reflective material called C3 anti detection film, similar to mylar but with an anti IR coating. Hard to get hold of though and quite pricey i would imagine..

some good facts and info on heat and meterials best for blocking it.
http://www.glacierbay.com/Heatprop.asp - this type of info is all over the net.

Peace
.
 
B

Bubby

11
0
nice info OP much obliged for cutting through all the myth and mysticism of IR. key maybe seperate interior room from exterior walls with visqueen maybe. air condition or vent room into center of house. maybe place a fan between work space and exterior walls, keep the hot air moving away from where the IR can see.
 
C

CanadianClassic

238
0
Good post i was a bit worried about that infra red shit even had a few coppers fly over the other day but w/e i dont have a massive grow and in Canada i dont think it would give grounds for a search warrant either!
 
M

mydogisinfrance

5
0
helicopters

Hello Farmers, hope you are all copasetic today.

I wanted to get a discussion going about IR cameras (specifically FLIR-forward looking Infra Red used by police) and the myths surrounding them as many a grower seem to worry about police helicopters using this tech to detect their grow rooms. I myself have heard people use this a the sole reason for not growing their own Buddha.

So the myth is that -IR cameras can see through walls.
Although a common belief in hollywood this is simply not the case. Infra red Cameras can only detect heat via the IR radiation eminating from it so unless something hot or the air on the other side of the wall is hot and therefore warming the wall itself then an IR camera simply can NOT see through walls or any other solid / liquid object for that matter.

This is demonstrated abundantly by those Police Cop Action shows, ever seen IR footage of a helicopter chasing down a suspect - funny how the glowing red image of his body heat disappears whenever he goes under a tree or in a house or even gets in a car. but when the guy (or gal in somecases!) stops for any length of time their body heat will warm, via conduction, whatever they are touching and this will show up on camera provided there isnt something else in between the camera and hot object.

so hopefully clearing that up i want to move the topic on to risks for growers specifically and possible ways of minimising said risk. The problem is that in most setups there will be alot of warm air generated by the lighting and it is this that makes it hard to mask the IR sig of a grow op, well that and warm objects conducting their heat to other objects.

it may help if i clear up a few facts before going any further - this is abit basic so you may want to skip but for those not up on their science may find it useful.

heat can travel by three ways only
Conduction - you touch something hot with finger, heat from the object is transfered from it to your finger and consiquently your finger warms up.
Convection - fundamentally the same as conduction but instead of direct contact it uses a gas (ie. Air) to transfere heat. this is how the incorrectly named 'radiator' in your home works.
Radiation - this is what Infra Red is and is a form of electromagnetic radiation that travels in waves emitted from any object above -273c (absolute zero) in all directions much like the filament in a light bulb, it needs no medium to travel but is slowed or halted by just about every form of matter of varying amounts including liquids and gases. for example this is how the Sun gets its heat to our planet through 93,000miles of complete vacuum. A curiuos thing really as is not hot istself but will cause objects to heat up on contact, ie the difference between ambient temperature and radiant temperatue is caused by IR.


To make it clear you can NOT get rid of IR radiation without eliminating the heatsource itself - this would break the laws of physics, but as FLIR gives off no emmisions itself but merely picks up external emmisions you can mask you IR sig by using certain materials and making sure nothing warm is touching the outer walls of where you grow thus lowering your overall emmision of IR. Also if using a fan to vent externally the longer the ducting the better as this gives the unwanted air the chance to return to ambient temps and will be less visible on FLIR - this is arguably the largest area of concern for any wanting to mask their IR sig.
Thought also must be given to where you grow, in a house is the safest bet and is nigh undetectable to FLIR as 99% of everything used in housing construction is designed to block heat transfere therefore IR aswell, things like insulation, the cavities in walls, double glazing -the list goes on.. coupled with the amount of exsisting heatsources in a domestic enviroment make it very difficult to detect a grow light.
People who grow in an outdoor solitary building, like a garden shed for example are most at risk from IR detection as there is more chance of heat conducting from one object to another and eventually raising the temps albeit slightly of the outter walls which WILL be visible to any FLIR thermographer hovering above.

For those growing in outhouses/sheds and the like as long as your grow room walls are ambient to the touch on the outside which is easily acheived by wrapping the room in some type of insulation, ThermaFoil for example. And the air temps around your grow area (not the grow room itself) arent excessively above ambient then your thermal signiture will be masked by ambient thermals completely.
Also putting glass pains around the outside of your grow room ontop of a layer of insulation is a good idea as its good at dissipating IR, i myself put a large bedroom mirror ontop of my grow room, however it is a good conductor of heat so make sure its not touching anything warm or the glass itself with start to generate more IR than ambient.

Anyway i hope this clears some of the fallicies revolving this technology and more importantly eases people's conscience on the matter.

Peace

fantastic
im looking to build an underground room an iders on how to stop th helicopters ie concrete/metal
 
M

mydogisinfrance

5
0
Hi to all

well farmers
any one now how to dig and build an underground room
lets stop the helicopters

Thanks Beneboy
 
A

AM to PM

49
0
Hey didnt read the thread because there are so many of these lol...

IR is the least of most peoples worries. THey slip up somewhere else first usually (like running their mouths).

Insulate your growrooms please. Then insulate your home.
 
S

Silica

191
0
Shit monkey bone good story but heavy.

So many people always tell me flir is no problem to growers but thats not the truth here.
i know it is used around here. I see flir choppers all the time we have a lot of national park here so thats one reason - outdoor crops but they used to fly over my place a lot especially on cold nights or early morning.
shit i know now why they hovered sometimes and sometimes circled., had a setup against a brick wall.Just panda seperating it.

Lucky i only grew vegies and cactus huh.
 
Smokey503ski

Smokey503ski

1,865
263
I had a chopper above my grow room recently. He stayed there for about 15 minutes. I waved, he waved back.
In Oregon, it is illegal to use a heat signiture for a warrant. Pretty much most of the choppers out here have the FLIR attached to them. I also live by a freway, and those choppers also bust speeders.
My guess is, he was watching speeders on the freeway, had the FLIR turned on and seen my garage light up. He strafed right over my garage for a while. He was low enough for us to make eye contact and shake the hell out my windows in the house.
In Oregon, if a LEO suspects any grow, they are supposed to call DHS and see if they are on the OMMP list. Then they have no use for anything.
I also could of been paranoyed for no reason.
I have had 2 houses I have lived in get a buzz by choppers flying close to the house.
 
O

ookiimata

131
18
Monkey Bone: The bit about the dryer vent exhaust being used as probable is highly disconcerting. I've used that method in the past as a way to disguise the ventilation of hot air. I saw a video by an ex-cop who recommended it because there was no way to prove you weren't just running your dryer every time the cops happened to scan it with FLIR. I suppose their investigation into you was at the point where anything they could make up as probable would be used. I still think it's probably a safe and effective technique to use against random heli/drive by FLIR detection.

I've also heard from ex-cops that they go out at night and drive through neighborhoods scanning the houses with FLIR. They can't do anything legally with the results, but they use it as a starting point to determine suspect locations they can then begin to harass.

Insulation and mylar or the IR-proof sheeting (don't know anything about that personally) are effective ways to eliminate the chances of an IR focusing on you. Creative ways of disguising heat output are helpful as well. Also, remember that if your AC unit is dispersing it's water/condensation outside your home, that water will have enough marijuana smell in it to trigger a response from a drug dog. So if they have some reason to walk around your house with their dog, the dog will alert when he hits the area under the AC unit.

I don't like to give free advertising, but the Never Get Busted guy has a video in which he discusses IR and uses an IR device to go around neighborhoods demonstrating what a neighborhood looks like at night through FLIR and what things LEO will be looking for. You may be able to find it on YouTube or something for free if you look. I found it interesting and helpful to see actual video of FLIR in action.
 
D

doBpop

138
0
yeah that ir blocking film looks pretty shit hot, abit dear though .....
Anyone know how that compares with the much cheaper thermal shield mylar, etc?

Seems they do the same thing?

Also, do ballasts (outside the GR) show enough heat signature to worry about?​
 
Top Bottom