High THCV strains and breeding them

[Moe.Red]

Once I am able to extract THCV in qty, I'll use myself as the guinea pig in a pre-clinical test. The studies are there to support this weight loss claim.

 

[Milson]

View attachment 1078506View attachment 1078507

Check out how much cbd was in that nepalese hash!!!!!!

 

[Moe.Red]

Do you expose them to UV? Far Red?

I can, however I have not yet. I have both spectrums available to me as supplemental to my Optic 8+ (2 lights in a 4x8) if we determine spectrum is a likely candidate for testing. I'm not convinced at this point. But clearly both have measurable impacts. UV is highly energetic, and far red influences plant hormones significantly. It could be this...

 

[Moe.Red]

Hey brother, would you happen to have a Canadian link for THCV legit strains?

Sorry, not yet. Still trying to figure it out.

 

[Milson]

I can, however I have not yet. I have both spectrums available to me as supplemental to my Optic 8+ (2 lights in a 4x8) if we determine spectrum is a likely candidate for testing. I'm not convinced at this point. But clearly both have measurable impacts. UV is highly energetic, and far red influences plant hormones significantly. It could be this...

I run both. I am a very strong, unequivocal believer that people should run supplemental far red and a lot of it. I believe it impacts shade responses that any plant outdoors would have and that in turn is a critical environmental cue that has impacts on how it tries to communicate with insects, other plants etc and that in turn has effects on the teros, flavonoids, etc. What else does it affect?

UV i believe in too but i do think it can also stress plants and so that is more at yr own risk.

 

[Poekie]

Elite Seeds, spanish seed bank is soon releasing a high THCV variety.

NOVARINE

NOVARINE Nuestras variedades ricas en THCV y CBDV Son genéticas demasiado importantes y novedosas cómo para que ninguna otra las eclipse, nosotros somos conscientes de que merecen su tiempo y protagonismo. Por eso, hemos esperado un tiempo para sacarlas a la venta. Dicho tiempo lo hemos...

eliteseeds.com

 

[RippedTorn]

My question really gets to how and when THCV is synthesized * * * Man, if someone could clue me in here, I'd be off to the races.

Different microbes, different fatty acids. Looking at single molecules is completely pointless. Hopefully some day people will see that nature comes in packages, not independent molecules. The packages are easy to identify. I wonder how people distinguished these packages before labs existed? Probably in a way that seems more robotic and unhuman than today lol.

 

[MIMedGrower]

I suspect that thcv develops late and most growers and all breeders focus on shorter finishing times.

Although i dont lab test since the dispensary i worked with a few years ago was raided. My patients comment about my “trippy” weed consistently.

i am pretty sure the only thing i do different is avoid bloom ratio nutrients (high PK) and try to keep plants growing and healthy in flower as long as i can. I find 12 week finishers ( that breeder says 9) always have a more complex effect than a shorter finishing plant. Plants flowered shorter than 10 weeks almost always have a flatter boring high to me.

Not scientific but maybe will help your quest @Moe.Red

To use a grow ratio with higher nitrogen to the finish it is important to taper off nutrients as the plant needs less as they ripen.

i hear a lot of lab science but not much about growing the plant. Plant pics of the plants being tested would be helpful. Weird question but were they happy?

i am sort of agreeing with @RippedTorn here. Not about the “organic” growing theories but about plant health and maturity being key. And i forgot to mention maturity. Are you vegging long enough to have a potent enough plant? Way back in his book ed rosenthal stated that in tests the thc was higher the longer he vegged the plant first. Maybe he had something there about other cannabinoids as well.

also i find flower always has more complex effects than extracts so what do we lose in transition?

the best weed comes from the best grower. All this “science” we have collected has increased thc but ruined the rest of the effects somehow. More breeding is making it worse. Why?

 

[Moe.Red]

I suspect that thcv develops late and most growers and all breeders focus on shorter finishing times.

Not scientific but maybe will help your quest @Moe.Red

You may be correct. I have no emergency to harvest these plants immediately. Since I have 2, perhaps there is a plan there to leave one for a much longer flower. I'll think on that.

i hear a lot of lab science but not much about growing the plant. Plant pics of the plants being tested would be helpful. Weird question but were they happy?

Sorry, I skipped right past all that since most people who are discussing at this level have their green thumbs well established. I can get some pics, but yes, the plants are very happy.

i am sort of agreeing with @RippedTorn here. Not about the “organic” growing theories but about plant health and maturity being key. And i forgot to mention maturity. Are you vegging long enough to have a potent enough plant? Way back in his book ed rosenthal stated that in tests the thc was higher the longer he vegged the plant first. Maybe he had something there about other cannabinoids as well.

I'll dig into this, thanks for the mention.

also i find flower always has more complex effects than extracts so what do we lose in transition?

the best weed comes from the best grower. All this “science” we have collected has increased thc but ruined the rest of the effects somehow. More breeding is making it worse. Why?

No doubt flower has different compounds at different ratios than extracts. Sorta the nature of the beast. But that is not really the issue here, getting a THCV plant is. What people decide to do with it and why once we have it is another complex matter.

I too think that there are way too many people out there trying to cash in on this gold rush and making strains left and right that have little or even negative value on the whole. I think you know why and that was a rhetorical question.

I'm not at home now, but I have a book called Cannabis Pharmacy. Excellent book. Going from memory now, there was a land race that was nearly 100% THCV that is no longer available because it didn't really get you high. Stuff like that breaks my heart. Cannabinoids other than THC and to a lesser extent CBD are virtually useless to most breeders these days - supply and demand. I would do all the work to grow, optimize and share freely the result if I had access to this kind of original land race genetics. As it is, it seems like we are trying to take high THC stuff that had the THCV bred out of it, and trying to coax THCV back into the genetics. From a 30,000 ft perspective, it is just asinine.

 

[jollycanna]

Trips, if I had the genetics figured out I would share with anyone who asked. I'm still working it.

If anyone is reading this and doesn't know what THCV is, it is pretty amazing stuff. There have been studies, but not enough. To my knowledge it has not been synthesized yet like THC=Merinol. For someone with diabetes there seems to be quite a bit of promise. Just an all around interesting cannabinoid that has not been fully expressed and understood yet.

I am about to harvest 2 Jack the Rippers. I'm TLC testing weekly on those, and to this point they show no more THVC than a standard variety whatever. I'm looking hard at 3 things. I am either:

testing wrong
growing wrong
or
the genetics really are not what they are sold as.

I have the ability to control every environmental aspect (light, spectrum, temp, RH, res temp, CO2, PH, etc. etc) so if someone has an idea on what set points to change to maximize THVC, I'm all ears.

As far as the testing, I am using standard TLC tech and I have done enough of this that I get consistent results. I think the biggest factor in expressing THCV is the decarb prior to TLC testing. I think THCV needs longer and hotter than THC to move it from acid to a nice spot on the plate, which will diminish the THC and CBD components, but I'm fine with that if it works. Still testing that theory out.

As far as the genetics, I have done Durban Poison and Jack the Ripper. I would be willing to pay the exorbitant price for THC Victory if I knew it was legit. Bottom line, I don't have the answer yet. But I am fully engaged in finding it and sharing with anyone when I do. I am open to ideas.

I have a bit of a lab in my basement. I think I may be a little unique there. If anyone has ideas but does not have a lab to try them in, I'll be your daisy, just gotta be a repeatable test using the scientific method is my only requirement. If it is not repeatable by another party, it is not data.

I wish I could help more but cash is life and no one gets info like how to pull thcv and just send a check for millions. I pull mad amounts of thcv when ever I grow. My flavor and smooth are not always there but I have some of the tripper buds. It's like doing serious psychedelics in a bit higher then a social dose.
I think a lot of things come from the grower if you are a certain type of person you can really put the effect in the buds with little effort. I've seen some plants pheno to a grower and become from next level already to beyond. So idk if it's what I'm doing to my plants or if it's just me. But I pull mad thcv like beware lol. But I like a clear here trip. With no ceiling so if I some enough and turn out the light it's a technicolor show. Original Chemdog 91 has a nice trip. And clear here head.

 

[Moe.Red]

Different microbes, different fatty acids. Looking at single molecules is completely pointless. Hopefully some day people will see that nature comes in packages, not independent molecules. The packages are easy to identify. I wonder how people distinguished these packages before labs existed? Probably in a way that seems more robotic and unhuman than today lol.

At first read, I discounted your post, sorry about that. I see what you are getting at, but I find this molecular discussion far from pointless. I find it very difficult to identify this package you refer to which presumably is the key to making THCV? If it is easily identifiable, you would be doing me a favor of telling me what it is.

That said, it did get me thinking, everything I have done so far has been hydroponics. I wonder if living dirt is a requirement for THCV? That would explain a lot for me at least.

 

[Moe.Red]

I pull mad amounts of thcv when ever I grow.

Can you share the testing data?

 

[Brendanpre]

I am far from an expert on this, but I am also lucky enough to call Durban, South Africa, my home town. I have a couple of observations and hunches on this and I am interested to hear your opinions.

I definitely think its genetic. Most of the strains that are known for it are pure, wild, land race sativa types, but its not a given that any land race sativa will produce thcv. If its not there genetically, no matter what you do, you won't have thcv.

However, even if it is in the genetics there Is no guarantee that your specific plant will produce thcv. For example: a couple friends clubbed in, bought some weed in bulk and split it between them. Turns out this was some of that fabled racy, trippy, almost instant effect weed. They all kept seeds and grew them out. Some got racy, trippy weed and some didn't... This opens up two possibilities: either its specific phenotype/chemotypes or it is one of those genes that need specific conditions to express itself. Personally I don't believe that its the pheno/chemo option because if that was the case it should be fairly straight forward to breed high thcv strains through selection, back crossing, selfing, etc. Many, many people have gone down this rabbit hole and there have been very few successes.

This leads me to believe that even if its there genetically, it needs something specific to express itself fully. Similar to some strains only colouring up when exposed to cold. I personally think its something more along the lines of a stress reaction. If you have a look where most of the known thcv land race strains come from, its more or less a band along the equator that stretches to the tropics/subtropics. This means an environment that is HOT, often humid and intense sunlight. The suns rays strike the earth at a more perpendicular angle and that means it is much higher in intensity and UV. A lot these Sativa's thrive on neglect in these conditions, often getting stressed with high temps, high humidity, up to a week of nonstop rain at a time, long stretches without water, etc. Stressing them like this could possibly be a trigger, but that's a personal guess... I do feel that trying to mimic this more tropical environment could up the odds of success.

And this one is just a wild guess, but when you talk to the oldtimers about these trippy strains, the weed they used to get was always very seedy. From personal experience almost all the trippy weed I've smoked in south Africa has been pretty seedy too. There MAY be some link here. Most of these landrace Sativa's are very prone to herming and one of the first things breeders will do is try and breed this trait out. What if the "thcv gene" is somehow linked to the "herm gene" in these Sativa's and by breeding out the herm trait we are also breeding out the thcv trait? Another possibility is that the plants "pregnancy hormones" that kick in when the flower is pollinated may some how alter the metabolic processes and cause the production of thcv.

I don't know. Like i said in the beginning, I'm not a scientist or an expert and these are personal observations and hunches. What do you all think?

 

[MIMedGrower]

You may be correct. I have no emergency to harvest these plants immediately. Since I have 2, perhaps there is a plan there to leave one for a much longer flower. I'll think on that.



Sorry, I skipped right past all that since most people who are discussing at this level have their green thumbs well established. I can get some pics, but yes, the plants are very happy.



I'll dig into this, thanks for the mention.



No doubt flower has different compounds at different ratios than extracts. Sorta the nature of the beast. But that is not really the issue here, getting a THCV plant is. What people decide to do with it and why once we have it is another complex matter.

I too think that there are way too many people out there trying to cash in on this gold rush and making strains left and right that have little or even negative value on the whole. I think you know why and that was a rhetorical question.

I'm not at home now, but I have a book called Cannabis Pharmacy. Excellent book. Going from memory now, there was a land race that was nearly 100% THCV that is no longer available because it didn't really get you high. Stuff like that breaks my heart. Cannabinoids other than THC and to a lesser extent CBD are virtually useless to most breeders these days - supply and demand. I would do all the work to grow, optimize and share freely the result if I had access to this kind of original land race genetics. As it is, it seems like we are trying to take high THC stuff that had the THCV bred out of it, and trying to coax THCV back into the genetics. From a 30,000 ft perspective, it is just asinine.

one more point while you have me thinking. I believe over feeding diminishes effects as well as flavor and smoothness. A green spam fed room of plants does not reach the potential of a talented home grower caring properly for a few plants. I believe it has to do with the plants being “happier”. Less stressed. Better cared for and given less nutrients only what they need.

i believe this is why many growers say organic weed tastes better. The plant doesnt tend to overfeed organically. But easy to give too much with fertilizer. And the bad fert taste comes way before the leaves burn from too much.

i avoid mass produced weed. It tends to feel weak regardless of thc content and tastes harsh. The growers were sure they did not overfeed. Plants looked green and healthy. But usually pushed hard.


just some more thoughts

 

[Moe.Red]

What do you all think?

I think I am going to read your post about 5 more times and then consider a trip to Durban. Need a roomate?

Thanks for chiming in! I have a lot of the same feelings, nice to see someone else thinking the same way.

 

[Moe.Red]

I wish I could help more but cash is life and no one gets info like how to pull thcv and just send a check for millions.

I'm not clear on what you are saying here, but I have no objection to paying for testable high THCV genetics. That would actually be one major branch of troubleshooting killed off in one swoop. If I can't make a good THCV grow out of known clones, problem is on my end and I can fix that.

 

[Moe.Red]

But usually pushed hard.

I guess I fall into this category kinda. I do run powerful lights, CO2, fallponics, etc and I probably get more growth in a shorter time than the majority of people here. But at any given time, I only have 6 plants in flower stage, 6 in pre-flower, 6 in veg, and 6 in seedling / clone. They are not that hard to take care of.

What is interesting is that you say to baby the plants, and Brendanpre thinks we need to stress them. For me, this is what I call analysis paralysis. They are both guesses.

The real difficulty is the length of time required between making a change and measuring the result. You really need to have a good testing plan or years will go by and you have no new useful information. That is kinda where I am at now.

 

[MIMedGrower]

I guess I fall into this category kinda. I do run powerful lights, CO2, fallponics, etc and I probably get more growth in a shorter time than the majority of people here. But at any given time, I only have 6 plants in flower stage, 6 in pre-flower, 6 in veg, and 6 in seedling / clone. They are not that hard to take care of.

What is interesting is that you say to baby the plants, and Brendanpre thinks we need to stress them. For me, this is what I call analysis paralysis. They are both guesses.

The real difficulty is the length of time required between making a change and measuring the result. You really need to have a good testing plan or years will go by and you have no new useful information. That is kinda where I am at now.

i highly respect the difficult task you have taken on.

I say keep them happy so they flower longer. I find about the time most flush i keep feeding light and layers of new trichomes always result.

and i dont think unnaturally fast veg growth helps the plant teach potential. I go slow and steady with peat mix and light feeds.

and i have done side by side testing on a lot of common forum techniques and find i end up avoiding all the hype in the end.

even the light spectrum info gives diminishing returns compared to keeping a plant healthy for 6-8 weeks veg and 12 weeks flowering. Thats the most potent and complex feeling plant to me almost every time.

 

[Brendanpre]

I guess I fall into this category kinda. I do run powerful lights, CO2, fallponics, etc and I probably get more growth in a shorter time than the majority of people here. But at any given time, I only have 6 plants in flower stage, 6 in pre-flower, 6 in veg, and 6 in seedling / clone. They are not that hard to take care of.

What is interesting is that you say to baby the plants, and Brendanpre thinks we need to stress them. For me, this is what I call analysis paralysis. They are both guesses.

The real difficulty is the length of time required between making a change and measuring the result. You really need to have a good testing plan or years will go by and you have no new useful information. That is kinda where I am at now.

Add into that the insanely long flowering times of some of these tropical sativas and you are staring at a monumental project...

Also, MIMedGrower brings up some good points, not many people are prepared to wait, or dont have the skill or ability for these to finish properly. 20+ weeks of flower in some cases. Its hard to keep a plant flowering that long without some sort of issues and very easy to just take it early.

Also he may be on to something with not pushing them hard. A lot of the soil is pretty poor in the areas where they are found...

And I definitely agree with the high THC breeding thing. We have become fixated on high THC ℅ and have neglected the rest of it. Most of these high THC strains nowadays have a boring, flat high. We seem to be breeding the magic out.

 

[Moe.Red]

MIMEd, Brendan, you have convinced me. Here is my thought:

I currently have 6 plants in the tent, only 2 are supposedly high THCV. Maybe I harvest the other 4 now and just leave the 2 Jack the Rippers in there by themselves. Let them go for another month or more. Back down nutes, probably back off the lighting, and see what happens. Keep doing TLC testing once a week and see if the THCV starts to ramp up? Sound like a solid approach?