HOW TO WATER COCO FOR BEST RESULTS.

[Aqua Man]

I didn't watch it, looked kinda long, don't understand what dryback, or any of the terms you guys were throwing around, but I got a feeling it has something to do with conserving hydration in some respects.

In the context of crop steering it is taking advantage of the stress responses of the plant to manipulate it to give us a benefit... larger denser buds, more resin and trichomes, high cannabinoid and terp levels etc. Much like UV causes stress that increases THC % when used properly, pruning and supercropping, day and night temp, drought or water stress can also induce benefits if done properly at the right times. It's taking advantage of a plants natural defenses as they have evolved to react to different stress over time. Used alone or in combination and properly at the right times can really make a big difference in a grow.

I haven't even scratched the surface on many of these and a lot of it was/is treated as trade secrets but I would absolutely be gracious for discussion on it

 

[decept1]

It's definitely some I would love to learn about... I have heard from many accomplished growers who swear by it. I have 0 doubt that it has a positive impact when used properly... if either of you have some links or can provide me a good place to start I would appreciate it. Hell even post in here if you like as it's fits the discussion. I'm always open to learn and far from knowing it all.

its a lot of information to post...that video explains a lot...ill find another one to post but these videos are long but worth the watch, if you want to truly understand

but basically its about vegetive growth cycle, generative growth cycle, media water content, media EC, water shot volume.

 

[Aqua Man]

its a lot of information to post...that video explains a lot...ill find another one to post but these videos are long but worth the watch, if you want to truly understand

but basically its about vegetive growth cycle, generative growth cycle, media water content, media EC, water shot volume.

Thank you sir

 

[Frankster]

In the context of crop steering it is taking advantage of the stress responses of the plant to manipulate it to give us a benefit... larger denser buds, more resin and trichomes, high cannabinoid and terp levels etc. Much like UV causes stress that increases THC % when used properly, pruning and supercropping, day and night temp, drought or water stress can also induce benefits if done properly at the right times. It's taking advantage of a plants natural defenses as they have evolved to react to different stress over time. Used alone or in combination and properly at the right times can really make a big difference in a grow.

I haven't even scratched the surface on many of these and a lot of it was/is treated as trade secrets but I would absolutely be gracious for discussion on it

Yea, I get what your saying, optimum fluctuations, or cycles, in temperature, humidity levels, cycling the plant as it ripens by manipulating micro environmental conditions to stimulate a certain desireable response in the plant. I would think things like cycling humidity levels, along with temps and lighting regimes (all together) could really magnify these types of ideal conditions. In combination of things like you say, UV AB, and nutrients. The right stimulus at the right time.

I'm wondering if micro adjusting some of the lighting ratio's progressing though the day hours might have potential at helping this process along. ie. withholding the light it doesn't need. The sun is much different in the beginning of the day, vs noon time, vs sunset. I've been keeping my UV on these plants for over a month now, constantly, 24/7 for the most part. Manipulating things like spectral ratio's as the daytime progresses seems like it could possibly optimize certain chemical responses during the ripening phases also. Certainly cooler temps during nights hold this potential. (I've experienced that one) Just targeting these little micro environmental conditions really have enormous potential to impact things in a very interesting way. Or perhaps adjusting airflow though the grow area, things like blowing the plants around really strenuously, in a controlled fashion. Where 5 hours of it would damage the plants, but 5 min of strong airflow, might actually simulate ideal responses, without damaging things, but actually stimulating a response...

 

[Aqua Man]

Yea, I get what your saying, optimum fluctuations, or cycles, in temperature, humidity levels, cycling the plant as it ripens by manipulating micro environmental conditions to stimulate a certain desireable response in the plant. I would think things like cycling humidity levels, along with temps and lighting regimes (all together) could really magnify these types of ideal conditions. In combination of things like you say, UV AB, and nutrients. The right stimulus at the right time.

I'm wondering if micro adjusting some of the lighting ratio's progressing though the day hours might have potential at helping this process along. ie. withholding the light it doesn't need. The sun is much different in the beginning of the day, vs noon time, vs sunset. I've been keeping my UV on these plants for over a month now, constantly, 24/7 for the most part. Manipulating things like spectral ratio's as the daytime progresses seems like it could possibly optimize certain chemical responses during the ripening phases also. Certainly cooler temps during nights hold this potential. (I've experienced that one) Just targeting these little micro environmental conditions really have enormous potential to impact things in a very interesting way. Or perhaps adjusting airflow though the grow area, things like blowing the plants around really strenuously, in a controlled fashion. Where 5 hours of it would damage the plants, but 5 min of strong airflow, might actually simulate ideal responses, without damaging things, but actually stimulating a response...

Sure it does... just look at R and FR I belive new studies are showing the can be manipulated to speed up the change in processes between photosynthesis and the Calvin cycle and has a huge effect on internode spacing as well as leaf size.

If you asking me what the best ratios are and when... I have no clue but plants of lighting companies are tinkering with this... just look at almost every LED now incorporating FR.

 

[Frankster]

Sure it does... just look at R and FR I belive new studies are showing the can be manipulated to speed up the change in processes between photosynthesis and the Calvin cycle and has a huge effect on internode spacing as well as leaf size.

If you asking me what the best ratios are and when... I have no clue but plants of lighting companies are tinkering with this... just look at almost every LED now incorporating FR.

I mean, this isn't really even trying here, this plant was stuck in un-optimized spots just to try and retard growth until I can get to it, and look at the damn thing, it's crazy. NUTS.

Osrams 660's and LM301H's @4000k, I believe, plus the UV A+B, it's sheer insanity, the good kind. lol. I've always make sure I've even got some IR range, too bad I don't have toggles for each independent range, could be of some benefits. Clearly, spread out, and overshadowing is a HUGE ADVANTAGE FOR DENSITY. There clearly making progress in this regard. It's like a little monster, in waiting, with a ton of energy stored in a tight little package. Saying please pick me...

 

[CanadianMillenialGrower]

Can't you collect the runoff and add it to fresh nutes?

No. Runoff should only be collected to test ph of the runoff. Never reuse runoff

 

[zebrausa]

Ok writing this cause i see this issue often and rather have a thread to link than explain this each time. This is not my work but a collection of info from many members here and I have put into practice myself.

So first off COCO is NOT soil. For best results we want to keep it saturated between 90-100% that does not mean you can't go below this but you may see slower growth or nutrient issues over time if your consistently letting COCO get to dry.

Coco has an amazing gas exchange and air holding capacity when compared to soil. For this reason it is next to impossible to over water. Over watering is NOT to much water... its lack of o2. You will see this in soil with less drainage but because of coco's high drainage, air holding capacity and gas exchange its highly unlikely to see this in coco.

I do suggest if growing in more than 1 gal pots to add perlite if you are seeking faster grow rates. However if you want to water less often then you can eliminate the perlite as this will lower the drainage. As a rule of thumb:

1gal no perlite
2gal 20% perlite
3gal 30% perlite
4gal 40% perlite
5+gal 50% perlite

You can do more or less but it will affect the frequency of watering required. More perlite the more frequent you will have to feed. Personally I feel the better the drainage the faster the growth but its a balancing act and the above ratios i would say are a great place to start.

Coco has a low CEC (cation exchange capacity) so it does not hold onto nutrients as well as something like soil so we feed with every watering to keep a balanced nutrient ratio, ph and ppm in the coco. To do so we also need to flush out some of the last feed with each feeding to prevent a nutrient buildup which can affect all of these. THINK OF COCO AS SOILESS... much closer to hydro and very similar to rockwool.

I won't get into ppm in detail as thing will change quite a bit from grow to grow depending on many factors. But generally speaking start at around 300-400ppm and work up to around 800ppm. Now some may need to alter that as it will depend on your specific grow conditions.

HOW OFTEN DO WE FEED!!!

Ah the always debated subject.. 2 times a day, 1 time every 2 days, 10 times a day????

Forget that nonsense... like I say each grow is different so we need to use a better method. Let the plants tell you!!!!

Ok here is how we calculate it simply to your specific grow conditions, stage of growth, pot size and every other variable. You will never need to wonder am I feeding to much or to little again.

The formula:

1.Feed 5% of the pot size as your nutrient solution.
2. Of that we want 10-20% to come out as run off.
3. If you get more you can lower the frequency.
4. If we get less we need to increase the frequency and for that feed we need to add more to get our run off.

So I will do the calculations up to 5gal below to save you all some time. Feed the amount listed and check to make sure you get runoff of the amount listed from there adjust to dial in the feedings as they will change as the plants grow.

REMEMBER THIS IS A GUIDLINE AND NOT A HARD RULE. Our goal is to get as close as reasonably possible. It's not gonna kill your plants if its not exact.


I'm gonna round up.

1gal. Feed 250ml get 25-50ml of runoff

2gal. Feed 500ml get 50-100ml of runoff.

3gal. Feed 750ml get 75-150ml of runoff.

5 gal Feed 1litre get 100-200ml of runoff.

By doing this your plant will tell you how often you should be watering for best results.

Plant transpiration happens during photosynthesis so we only need to water during the lights on period. But in smaller containers you may find that you need to fertigate once in the middle of lights out if fertigation events are higher. Its unlikely but if your coco is dry before the first feed its not a bad idea to toss one in. Generally feed a couple hrs before lights out for the last time but you want to split the events evenly throughout lights on.

It may sound like you will be watering way to much but when you calculate how much you are feeding and then the frequency its not much more than most already do, just supplied in a manner that provides much greater stability. You will be using much smaller amounts of nutrient solution and by feeding much more frequently it doesn't take much to get your runoff while keeping the rootzone ph, ppm and moisture content ideal.

When my plants start vegging well, I water every other day until drain out when using coco. When flowering, I water everyday. Coco can handle the water quite well. I always watch my plants though and let them tell me so to speak when they need more water. I crank up the ppm's in both phases. I don't test drain out water. I look at my plants to tell me how they're doing. My 2 cents.

 

[Aqua Man]

No. Runoff should only be collected to test ph of the runoff. Never reuse runoff

You can but should be treated before doing so to be safe.

 

[Frankster]

You can but should be treated before doing so to be safe.

I've often wondered about this also. Sometimes, when I'm doing some really root bound stuff, and I'm getting excessive run out on the sides, from feeding it too fast, or too thick of root balls, I will occasionally dip some out of the run-off setup to finish the last plant, if I'm a little short, and being lazy and don't want to mix up one last jug of nutes. Usually with the plants I've got right now, I'm mixing up about 7-8 individual gallons of nutes daily, some veg, some flower, some customized between the two, or a bit more dilute, depending on the stage of development sitting on the feeding pad at any given moment.

Once they get into late flower and slow down some, I won't feed them everyday, but I do usually refresh them up a bit, just not saturated, then spray all sides again with microbes/fungi. I want those gals close as possible to the dry end of things by day 2, so they can get another whole cycle fed to them, and flushed out again.

 

[Rooke]

Thanks for sharing the vid bro I’ll have to listen to it again there’s a lot of good info shared on there. So would it be fair to say that if you treat your media like a big sponge sitting on a cinder block in a 10 gallon pail watered 1/3 up the sponge when you water the top of the sponge will be wet at first but after say 2-4 days after the top 1/3 dries out that would indicate that it’s time to feed your plants again? Now I know my analogy is not the greatest but I treat my media the same way and press on it when I think it’s getting dry because it feels spongy when it’s at the right dryness. Ya I’m still growing in soil these days but I’m still trying different ways, strains, nutes all started inside under T5’s then outside end of May first week in June. I’ve been a pedal to the metal type of guy so far thinking push them hard outside they can take it right? 80% of full recommended strength But I have never gone the other way hmmm. So I have new nutes this year and lots of new and some that worked well strains to dabble with this year. Right now they are at 25 c and 65 % rh and have been there for about 3 weeks now readings were a bit lower to start. Half strength nutes at ph 6.2 ish ec at 540 ppm between 5-6 weeks old. Can I up pot to say a 10 gal pot of coco on a couple of plants to grow outdoors they are in 1 gal pots and probably going into 3 gal for my next up pots for my soil gals. I want to put mykos spores on them again then again on my final up pot. I’ve learned so much from this thread folks that applies to most media in general terms. Please I didn’t want to hijack just needing some feedback please. Lotsa Love and Peace Friends!!!!

 

[Frankster]

Thanks for sharing the vid bro I’ll have to listen to it again there’s a lot of good info shared on there. So would it be fair to say that if you treat your media like a big sponge sitting on a cinder block in a 10 gallon pail watered 1/3 up the sponge when you water the top of the sponge will be wet at first but after say 2-4 days after the top 1/3 dries out that would indicate that it’s time to feed your plants again? Now I know my analogy is not the greatest but I treat my media the same way and press on it when I think it’s getting dry because it feels spongy when it’s at the right dryness. Ya I’m still growing in soil these days but I’m still trying different ways, strains, nutes all started inside under T5’s then outside end of May first week in June. I’ve been a pedal to the metal type of guy so far thinking push them hard outside they can take it right? 80% of full recommended strength But I have never gone the other way hmmm. So I have new nutes this year and lots of new and some that worked well strains to dabble with this year. Right now they are at 25 c and 65 % rh and have been there for about 3 weeks now readings were a bit lower to start. Half strength nutes at ph 6.2 ish ec at 540 ppm between 5-6 weeks old. Can I up pot to say a 10 gal pot of coco on a couple of plants to grow outdoors they are in 1 gal pots and probably going into 3 gal for my next up pots for my soil gals. I want to put mykos spores on them again then again on my final up pot. I’ve learned so much from this thread folks that applies to most media in general terms. Please I didn’t want to hijack just needing some feedback please. Lotsa Love and Peace Friends!!!!

For your application, outside, why just go with Mycos? Why not go all the way. utilizing over 30 different microbes, some that can mitigate PM and offer up resistance against bug infestations, and other pathogens, all from a single bottle. Keeping your indigenous flora and pathogens in check.. Including several species of Mycorrhizae and Mushrooms, nitrification bacteria's, ect.... I hate to be a product whore, but foxfarms makes some of the best product lines, hands down. This one's the best I've found on the market, and it's also the most highly concentrated (propagates per cc) of the ones I've come across. Word of warning, only obtain less than a years supply, to ensure optimum concentration, and store it in a cool spot. A little goes a long way.

On a side note, I think many of these organisms create exudate that act as emulsifier and surfactant, debriding agent, for wounded tissue. (stuff we would otherwise have to purchase) I've not had any problems with salt buildup, and I've pretty much stopped using my Yucca Gold product, because it's not needed anymore, so far. The roots stay shiny clean using this stuff, it works on multiples of defensive fronts. My down under barrier for my open style of growing.

 

[Taurus]

I was going to say potassium, but I think your spot on. Plus, it's farther into the interveinal area's than I would expect with potassium issues, and no actual necrosis, yet.

amazing how that mimic's a nutrient issue. Are those mostly top leaves?
Yea, now I see, it progresses from top down.

So I switched to better nutrients and everything looks a lot better but now I’m getting some burnt tips and leaf curl upwards. I’m pretty sure it’s because my EC is at 3.0. Now I know that is high, it’s what the nutrient company I went with told me to go to clear up the magnesium deficiency. It seems better but there is still a tiny bit at the tips. I’m going to lower the EC to around 2.6 which is where a friend of mine is doing very well with the same nutrient. Any input is welcome and appreciated.

Agree.

 

[Taurus]

This was my nute burn at 1.9ec

I’ve learnt 1.0 1.2 max is enough
View attachment 1128082
View attachment 1128083
View attachment 1128084View attachment 1128085
View attachment 1128086Definitely understood, I have to back my EC waaay up.

 

[Taurus]

Looks like light bleaching

I had a tissue sample sent to the lab with the nutrient I’m using and both came back magnesium deficient as I expected. I since then switched nutrient and the problem cleared up for the most part but now I’m getting leaf curl upwards and burnt tips. I know my EC is high (3.0) but that’s what the owner of the new nutrient I’m using suggested to clear up the deficiency quickly. I will lower it today to 2.6.

 

[Aqua Man]

I had a tissue sample sent to the lab with the nutrient I’m using and both came back magnesium deficient as I expected. I since then switched nutrient and the problem cleared up for the most part but now I’m getting leaf curl upwards and burnt tips. I know my EC is high (3.0) but that’s what the owner of the new nutrient I’m using suggested to clear up the deficiency quickly. I will lower it today to 2.6.

What nutrient line?

 

[Madmax]

Looks like i can see mag def on the new growth.i would b lowering the ppm and moving light up.. too high a ppm, light or heat will make the leaves curl up..the new growth appears to b tacoeing aswell....not fact ..just what i think...so dont believe anything i say lol ha..

 

[Arkos]

I know my EC is high (3.0) but that’s what the owner of the new nutrient I’m using suggested to clear up the deficiency quickly. I will lower it today to 2.6.

That is sky high brother, I'd lower it to 1.3 ec and see how they do in two weeks. Foliar feeding is the way to go if you need to fix deficiencies quickly, that is if your not more than 2 weeks into flower.

 

[MidwestToker]

I max at 1.5ec with single daily feeds, if multiple feeds I even go lower ec

 

[Ghosttrainx]

Sure you can do a recirculating top feed system with changeouts every so often. I have actually thought about doing so but decided against it for more assurance of stability of ppm ph etc.

Could even add an autodoser for ph if your lazy like me.

Thats a really good point man.

Reuse waste u can put on your lawns or other plants if u recirculation u spread the disease from one plant to other and nutes are unbalanced as it what's to get rid of it as not needed any more if u can filter it u could with carbon filters and sterilize it first again