HOW TO WATER COCO FOR BEST RESULTS.

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Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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Legend as always. I'm constantly reminded of the medical maxim 'when you hear thundering hooves don't look for zebras'. Occam's razor. The nutrient thing is such a rabbit hole, when in actual fact the answer to almost everything is environment so look there first.

I went down a rabbit hole this week of trying to fix wildly fluctuating pH. Now I've since discovered that I must buffer my RO with Calmag to prevent this. Another lesson learned. But as a responder told me - why are you going crazy over this when your plants look great? Yes there's a solution and here it is but why even measure your pH out and confuse the issue when you're totally happy with where your plants are?

I had taken on board what you said last time and I just cut them. Every time everything around that part of the plant perks up as they get more air and aren't having to support a leaf that isn't really supporting them any more. Great advice as always.

With buffering RO, I read somewhere last night that people are saying use pH up to get the water to 10, then pH down to 6 then begin adding bird nutes. That sounds like a recipe for a bucket of salt water to me? Any truth to this?
Have a read here. PH is not well understood by many imo. It's not so much the PH that is important in buffering as the alkalinity. PH is simply the result of the ratio of alkalinity and acidity.

 
Nectarivorous

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Have a read here. PH is not well understood by many imo. It's not so much the PH that is important in buffering as the alkalinity. PH is simply the result of the ratio of alkalinity and acidity.

Awesome thanks man, will do. I got some good advice of another thread from you, I've been doing 0.4 EC Calmag, gonna pull that way back to 1-1.5 and make the rest to 0.2 front K Silicate :)
 
Aqua Man

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Awesome thanks man, will do. I got some good advice of another thread from you, I've been doing 0.4 EC Calmag, gonna pull that way back to 1-1.5 and make the rest to 0.2 front K Silicate :)
Just make sure the silicate is add first. Then allowed to mix for 20 min before phing down to 6.5 then add the rest in the proper order or you will likely get precipitate
 
Nectarivorous

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Just make sure the silicate is add first. Then allowed to mix for 20 min before phing down to 6.5 then add the rest in the proper order or you will likely get precipitate
Just because everyone seems to have their own 'proper order', can I confirm yours?

I have:

Silicate
pH down
Calmag
Silica
Part A
Fulvic
Part B
Rhizo
Cannazym

Please correct me at your earliest convenience! Tired of tipping stuff in and seeing clouds... M
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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Just because everyone seems to have their own 'proper order', can I confirm yours?

I have:

Silicate
pH down
Calmag
Silica
Part A
Fulvic
Part B
Rhizo
Cannazym

Please correct me at your earliest convenience! Tired of tipping stuff in and seeing clouds... M
You are using 2 forms of silicon? Looks ok to me.
 
Frankster

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[SiO(4−2x)−4−x] = silicate
The family includes:
OOrthosilicate SiO4−4 (x = 0),
metasilicate SiO2−3 (x = 1),
pyrosilicate Si2O6−7 (x = 0.5, n = 2).
250px-Orthosilicate-2D-dimensions.png


Silica = Silicon dioxide
Other names
  • Quartz
  • Silica
  • Silicic oxide
  • Silicon(IV) oxide
  • Crystalline silica
  • Pure Silica
  • Silicea
  • Silica sand
  • Si-OCage.svg.png
Personally, I think your better off with the dioxide form, but I'm not precisely sure. Not even sure if it makes any difference whatsoever. Certainly, the silicon dioxide is far cheaper to obtain. I know that much.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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[SiO(4−2x)−4−x] = silicate
The family includes:
OOrthosilicate SiO4−4 (x = 0),
metasilicate SiO2−3 (x = 1),
pyrosilicate Si2O6−7 (x = 0.5, n = 2).
View attachment 1163131

Silica = Silicon dioxide
Other names
  • Quartz
  • Silica
  • Silicic oxide
  • Silicon(IV) oxide
  • Crystalline silica
  • Pure Silica
  • Silicea
  • Silica sand
  • View attachment 1163132
Personally, I think your better off with the dioxide form, but I'm not precisely sure. Not even sure if it makes any difference whatsoever. Certainly, the silicon dioxide is far cheaper to obtain. I know that much.
So the potassium silicate is used for silicate and ph stabilization. Silicon dioxide is close to PH neutral and is the form available to plants. If I remember right but I'm fairly sure.

So if using for PH stabilization (alkalinity) potassium silicate is a great option. If just for silica then silicon dioxide is a better choice.
 
Nectarivorous

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So the potassium silicate is used for silicate and ph stabilization. Silicon dioxide is close to PH neutral and is the form available to plants. If I remember right but I'm fairly sure.

So if using for PH stabilization (alkalinity) potassium silicate is a great option. If just for silica then silicon dioxide is a better choice.
I had also read on that other thread that lots of folks use Calmag that doesn't have calcium nitrate to prevent overloading the N. Do you have an opinion on this?
 
Aqua Man

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I had also read on that other thread that lots of folks use Calmag that doesn't have calcium nitrate to prevent overloading the N. Do you have an opinion on this?
I think ppl use to much cal mag and higher than needed concentrations of ferts.

So cal nitrate imo is not an issue you just need to account for it. If you want to put the time and effort into optimizing ratios. Which can be a lot of work.

It also depends on your water supply. I use tap and it contains a fair bit of cal carbonate but very little magnesium. My base ferts also contain cal and mag so between the 2 my ratio of cal to mag is not optimal but still decent so I add mag sulfate and don't need to add any cal mag usually.

But if RO you won't have that issue and adding 100-150ppm should be enough in most cases.

The ratios of nutrients are the most important part when it comes to nutrients
 
SSgrower

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Hey bro, I use 3-5ml. of most my regimen to a gal or 1 1/2 gal watering from a 2 gal. can. I run Dyna-Gro nutrients & Humbolt "Oneness" and Big Up powder at certain times of flower. Still waiting on Protek,silica for uptake. SS
 
Nectarivorous

Nectarivorous

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I think ppl use to much cal mag and higher than needed concentrations of ferts.

So cal nitrate imo is not an issue you just need to account for it. If you want to put the time and effort into optimizing ratios. Which can be a lot of work.

It also depends on your water supply. I use tap and it contains a fair bit of cal carbonate but very little magnesium. My base ferts also contain cal and mag so between the 2 my ratio of cal to mag is not optimal but still decent so I add mag sulfate and don't need to add any cal mag usually.

But if RO you won't have that issue and adding 100-150ppm should be enough in most cases.

The ratios of nutrients are the most important part when it comes to nutrients
Did I see you say somewhere that you flush and cannazym every two weeks?
 
Nectarivorous

Nectarivorous

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Just so the farm doesn't forget how awesome what goes on here is...

Day 46 from seed for my girls. I feel like just the last two or three days the nute/watering schedule has started to click on more of a deep level, which probably just means I'm starting to be able to listen to my girls. Was always going to be a learning curve and so much more to learn yet, so I'm sure some things I've done have slowed progress by a week or two. Having said that the one on bottom right is a week younger and she's done super well to catch up. They have never looked as they do now with the nutes starting to hit the right spot.

I'm really happy with all the potential sites even on the bottom left which is the one that was a bit water and nute stunted but has taken off last two days and never looked better. I think perhaps early on my watering schedule was too often for the little roots, but now they just want to be fed every four hours. They're not even close to 5% of pot size each watering but as long as I get my 20% they just loooove it.

I think the back right has the most beautiful leaf structure, but back left is lil miss vigor. Just looks like it's rearing to go and bang out a nice half pound for me 😉
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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Just so the farm doesn't forget how awesome what goes on here is...

Day 46 from seed for my girls. I feel like just the last two or three days the nute/watering schedule has started to click on more of a deep level, which probably just means I'm starting to be able to listen to my girls. Was always going to be a learning curve and so much more to learn yet, so I'm sure some things I've done have slowed progress by a week or two. Having said that the one on bottom right is a week younger and she's done super well to catch up. They have never looked as they do now with the nutes starting to hit the right spot.

I'm really happy with all the potential sites even on the bottom left which is the one that was a bit water and nute stunted but has taken off last two days and never looked better. I think perhaps early on my watering schedule was too often for the little roots, but now they just want to be fed every four hours. They're not even close to 5% of pot size each watering but as long as I get my 20% they just loooove it.

I think the back right has the most beautiful leaf structure, but back left is lil miss vigor. Just looks like it's rearing to go and bang out a nice half pound for me 😉
What size pots?
 
Nectarivorous

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What size pots?
Too big. About 8 gal. Hydro store said they were the way to go. One of the drainage tubs underneath has now split around the drain point and needs to be replaced. Won't be using them again after I found out you're in 3 gals. It's too big, makes watering really awkward early on when they don't need much but you want run off.
 
Frankster

Frankster

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I think ppl use to much cal mag and higher than needed concentrations of ferts.

So cal nitrate imo is not an issue you just need to account for it. If you want to put the time and effort into optimizing ratios. Which can be a lot of work.

It also depends on your water supply. I use tap and it contains a fair bit of cal carbonate but very little magnesium. My base ferts also contain cal and mag so between the 2 my ratio of cal to mag is not optimal but still decent so I add mag sulfate and don't need to add any cal mag usually.

But if RO you won't have that issue and adding 100-150ppm should be enough in most cases.

The ratios of nutrients are the most important part when it comes to nutrients
Agreed. I've not had any more problems with either mag and sulfur of late, and I think a ratio of around 50% these 2 elements to both calcium nitrate, and micro's is more than sufficient in my experience, and around 50% of phosphorus once flowering begins.

I really think as far as calcium goes, nitrate becomes an issue, (with with solubility and tapering) and I've seen lot's of formula's that are clearly not dissolving completely, or precipitation issues.

Also, you end up in late flowering with excessive amounts of nitrogen in the mixture, and not enough calcium. Calcium bicarb works fine, but the hydroxide form is much better at dissolving and counterbalancing those ion's for optimum solubility, while also balancing pH mixtures extremely well.
 
Frankster

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General rules of thumb: (correct anything that doesn't look right)

More concentrated solutions are not always better.
Impurities can cause important problems.
Use slightly acidic deionized water to prepare the solutions.
Salts take up volume, take that into account.
Add salts from the smallest to the largest quantities.

When you prepare hydroponic solutions it is often better – especially when you’re starting – to add salts from the smallest to the highest amounts needed. If you make a mistake at some point then you will minimize the amount of mass of salts that has been wasted due to this fact. If you make a mistake adding a micro nutrient you will only lose a small amount of the other micro nutrients instead of losing a huge amounts of macro nutrients due your order of addition.

It is also true that the substances that are added in largest quantities are commonly nitrates and these salts have endothermic dissolutions – meaning they cool solutions upon addition – so it is better to add them last so that they can benefit a bit from the heat generated by the dissolution of the other salts.

Don't start with cold water, try for room temperature.

Solubility Rules​

The following are the solubility rules for common ionic solids. If there two rules appear to contradict each other, the preceding rule takes precedence.

  1. Salts containing Group I elements ( K+) are soluble . There are few exceptions to this rule. Salts containing the ammonium ion (NH4+) are also soluble.
  2. Salts containing nitrate ion (NO3-) are generally soluble.
  3. Most sulfate salts are soluble. Important exceptions to this rule include CaSO4.
  4. Most hydroxide salts are only slightly soluble. Hydroxide salts of Group I elements are soluble. Hydroxide salts of Group II elements are slightly soluble. Hydroxide salts of transition metals and are insoluble. Thus, Fe(OH)3 are not soluble.
  5. Most sulfides of transition metals are highly insoluble, including FeS, ZnS, are also insoluble.
  6. Carbonates are frequently insoluble. Group II carbonates (CaCO3, ) are insoluble.
  7. Chromates are frequently insoluble.
  8. Phosphates such as Ca3(PO4)2 and Ag3PO4 are frequently insoluble. however (Potassium Phosphate Monobasic [KH2PO4] is soluble, so is Potassium phosphate dibasic. K2HPO4 , so also is Calcium phosphate dibasic, so is calcium phosphate monobasic (monocalcium phosphate).
  9. Sugars are soluble in water
  10. Fulvic acids are soluble in water under all pH conditions
  11. humics are not soluble in water.

 
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Frankster

Frankster

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Check out this interactive periodic table of elements, I'm an idiot but I find this super interesting... https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/periodic-table/
Thanks. Bookmarked it. I've been reading a few articles there as well. Seems it's not just health related, but biochemistry/biological sciences in general. This was a great "cutting edge science" article on flowering I ran into on that site, along with many others. Essentially Tre6P is the "insulin" of plants, and helps to "pull" the sucrose though the cell walls like a hook. Tres6P is a phosphate complex.

PP_PP201600417R1_f1.jpg


I've been titrating a fair amount of simple acids into my solutions of late, also playing around with various ratio's of sugars, hormones, auxins, cytokinin, enzymes, vitamins and cofactors, depending on developmental cycle. More so during flowering, so getting that solution dialed in every time, correctly, especially if anything complex is added in. Then I allow everything to sit for hours up to 24 hours, allowing the pH to reset itself. ie. If any enzymes are added along with proteins, fatty acids, carbs/sugars, or terpenes.

One of my other new sugars I've been toying with is d-ribose,aka ((2R,3R,4S,5R)-5-(hydroxymethyl)oxolane-2,3,4-triol) because of it's role in flowering and because deoxyribose derivative found in DNA differs from ribose by having a hydrogen atom in place of the hydroxyl group at C2'. This hydroxyl group performs a function in RNA splicing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_splicing

Sugars are great for the plant, especially during mid and late flowering, and there also easily tolerated in low and moderate dosages. I observe very obvious early hardening of the buds, and overall density of the plant, even in the lower sections. In organics, the fungi/bacteria play most of these roles during flowering, but in hydroponics and salt regimes, it's largely lacking, so this is used as a means to exploit those biological systems, and mechanisms. without all the crazy price tags. Exploiting those sucrose pathways are a key component of successful flowering, especially mid to late in the flowering process.

800px-Beta-D-Ribofuranose.svg.png
D-Ribose.png


1280px-Splicesome.svg.png
 
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