HPS light superior vs current led tech?

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MIMedGrower

MIMedGrower

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@MIMedGrower I seem to recall the test you ran with hps and CMH. I'm not sure I can provide a specific reference that would satisfy your request. The one reference that comes to mind, I'm gonna have to find again. As I mention, and it seems we talked about this before - most of the published studies were not broadband light with a measured UV component, like we use in practice. On a cellular level, there are various receptors for specific wavelengths that do certain jobs, but only up to the UVA wavelengths. AFAIK, there are no UVB receptors. UVB does have effect, but the effect is damage control.


Bruce Bugby at the university of utah has all the best current light info. They are and have been testing extensively.

My tests were not scientific except for the math showing about 30% less yield for the 315 vs the hps.

We did blind test patients and ourselves for quality but no one picked one or the other regularly. We could not tell in the pipe.

When i went back to hps only (cant run the third lamp in summer) no one noticed.

I do miss the natural looking light though.
 
BigCube

BigCube

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I notice no difference in the end product between the same plant grown with led or CMH. They were both just as flavorful, just as potent, and almost indistinguishable from one another.

However I did notice that LED gave me higher yield per watt and denser flowers. Also LED required less AC time to keep temps in range.
You would need the same watts to directly compare.

However,

A 315 cmh didnt make a percievable difference against my 600 hps in quality. But it did grow shorter, leafier plants with a lower yield.

However there are many tests that show up to a 4% increase in thc in lab tests against led and hps. And tests showing adding uvb the last two weeks shows the same thc increase as running uvb full cycle.

This is what the metal halide “finishing” 10k bulb was for.

I liked the buds best (and yield) with hps and cmh combined.

And i was only asking for a link proving what @weedtech stated.

While it is true I would need the same wattage to make an accurate comparison, but 265w vs 315w isnt much of a difference.

I'm sure tests of the extremes would show a 4% increase, but I bet you the average is much less. Compare good LEDs to crappy HID and the 4% might fully disappear.

Even if the 4% is a thing (I'm sure it is, I know you well enough to know you wouldn't just make that up) it's only an argument for supplementing UV in the last couple weeks of flower. Not HID the entire way.

Buying a uv bulb or two to run the last 2 weeks along side your LEDs would still give you the said 4%, less heat, less power and more gram per watt..

Unless I'm missing something crucial 👍
 
MIMedGrower

MIMedGrower

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While it is true I would need the same wattage to make an accurate comparison, but 265w vs 315w isnt much of a difference.

I'm sure tests of the extremes would show a 4% increase, but I bet you the average is much less. Compare good LEDs to crappy HID and the 4% might fully disappear.

Even if the 4% is a thing (I'm sure it is, I know you well enough to know you wouldn't just make that up) it's only an argument for supplementing UV in the last couple weeks of flower. Not HID the entire way.

Buying a uv bulb or two to run the last 2 weeks along side your LEDs would still give you the said 4%, less heat, less power and more gram per watt..

Unless I'm missing something crucial 👍


No you got it bro. Im not arguing for one type of light against another.

I plan to match my current wattage when i get led and enjoy much higher yield for the same money.

There is a lot more specific led light info coming with the grow lab at the university of utah. Recently they are focusing on other frequencies of far red and higher yield.
 
Edinburgh

Edinburgh

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I used mh and hps for years before switching to led, on grow ace you can buy a whole rig including ballast and everything for under $200, the problem is the heat they throw and amount of juice they use, if you are able to completely control your environment there great, most big comercial growers use these lights but again if your a comercial grower you should be able to control your environment, i guess i would have to say there better in the long run and much much cheaper witch offsets the juice they use, but if your just a small time hobby grower i would stick with a 2 cycle led as they throw off much less heat and use much less juice, but you can get a real nice rig dirt cheap bc everyone wants led.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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Oh how I have missed this thread.... Not lol

FWIW.


Blue (~450–520 nm) and UV (< 400 nm) Light
Blue and UV-A light triggers cryptochrome (320500 nm) and phototropin (phot1 and pho2; 320–500 nm) function (Jones, 2018). These two photoreceptors regulate various physiological and developmental processes including chloroplast relocation, germination, elongation, and stomatal opening, which impacts water transpiration and CO2 exchange (Cosgrove, 1981; Schwartz and Zeiger, 1984). Blue light mediates chlorophyll and chloroplast development, enzyme synthesis, and plant density, and regulates responses to biotic environmental stresses (Goins et al., 1997; Schuerger et al., 1997). Walters and Horton (1995) reported that blue light deficiency can impact the light saturation rate of photosynthesis and can change the Chl a/b ratio in Arabidopsis thaliana. Blue light causes thickness of the epidermis and palisade mesophyll cells in Betula pendula (Sæbø et al., 1995). Lee et al. (2014) concluded that shorter blue wavelengths (<445 nm) promote stem growth, plant height, and anthocyanin synthesis in green perilla (Perilla frutescens var. japonica Hara cv. Soim) plants. Cannabis plants grown under blue light with a short photoperiod (12 h light:12 h dark/flowering stage) improved cannabinoid content (Magagnini et al., 2018). This same study suggested that there is a synergy between UV-A and blue wavelengths that induces cannabigerol accumulation in cannabis flowers.

Blue light activates Zeitlupe (ZTL) family function, a group of proteins that plays a role in circadian clock regulation, wherein their light-dependent function allows modulation of internal timing signals (Kim et al., 2007). Accordingly, optimal lighting regimes for cannabis growth and production should take advantage of this temporal regulation initiated by the circadian clock and light-sensitive ZTL protein function.

Wavelengths of light that are shorter than the PAR spectrum [e.g., violet light and UV (<400 nm) radiation] have limited photosynthesis; however, discrete photomorphogenic effects are observed when UV-B (290320 nm) sensing systems are triggered (Frohnmeyer and Staiger, 2003; Folta and Carvalho, 2015). UV-B radiation is perceived via the UV-B photoreceptor UV resistance locus 8 (UVR8). Although UV-B represents a threat to plant integrity in large quantities, smaller quantities of UV-B have important benefits such as promoting pest resistance, increasing flavonoid accumulation, improving photosynthetic efficiency, and serving as an indicator of direct sunlight and sunflecks (Ballaré et al., 2012; Wargent and Jordan, 2013; Zoratti et al., 2014; Moriconi et al., 2018). Further to this, some UV-B responses can also be modulated by a UVR8-independent signal and UV-A radiation, since plants’ responses to UV-B light are regulated by both UVR8-dependent and -independent pathways (Morales et al., 2013; Li et al., 2015; Jenkins, 2017). UV-B light reportedly elicits THC accumulation in both leaves and buds (Pate, 1983; Lydon et al., 1987; Potter and Duncombe, 2012).
 
MIMedGrower

MIMedGrower

17,190
438
Oh how I have missed this thread.... Not lol

FWIW.


Blue (~450–520 nm) and UV (< 400 nm) Light
Blue and UV-A light triggers cryptochrome (320500 nm) and phototropin (phot1 and pho2; 320–500 nm) function (Jones, 2018). These two photoreceptors regulate various physiological and developmental processes including chloroplast relocation, germination, elongation, and stomatal opening, which impacts water transpiration and CO2 exchange (Cosgrove, 1981; Schwartz and Zeiger, 1984). Blue light mediates chlorophyll and chloroplast development, enzyme synthesis, and plant density, and regulates responses to biotic environmental stresses (Goins et al., 1997; Schuerger et al., 1997). Walters and Horton (1995) reported that blue light deficiency can impact the light saturation rate of photosynthesis and can change the Chl a/b ratio in Arabidopsis thaliana. Blue light causes thickness of the epidermis and palisade mesophyll cells in Betula pendula (Sæbø et al., 1995). Lee et al. (2014) concluded that shorter blue wavelengths (<445 nm) promote stem growth, plant height, and anthocyanin synthesis in green perilla (Perilla frutescens var. japonica Hara cv. Soim) plants. Cannabis plants grown under blue light with a short photoperiod (12 h light:12 h dark/flowering stage) improved cannabinoid content (Magagnini et al., 2018). This same study suggested that there is a synergy between UV-A and blue wavelengths that induces cannabigerol accumulation in cannabis flowers.

Blue light activates Zeitlupe (ZTL) family function, a group of proteins that plays a role in circadian clock regulation, wherein their light-dependent function allows modulation of internal timing signals (Kim et al., 2007). Accordingly, optimal lighting regimes for cannabis growth and production should take advantage of this temporal regulation initiated by the circadian clock and light-sensitive ZTL protein function.

Wavelengths of light that are shorter than the PAR spectrum [e.g., violet light and UV (<400 nm) radiation] have limited photosynthesis; however, discrete photomorphogenic effects are observed when UV-B (290320 nm) sensing systems are triggered (Frohnmeyer and Staiger, 2003; Folta and Carvalho, 2015). UV-B radiation is perceived via the UV-B photoreceptor UV resistance locus 8 (UVR8). Although UV-B represents a threat to plant integrity in large quantities, smaller quantities of UV-B have important benefits such as promoting pest resistance, increasing flavonoid accumulation, improving photosynthetic efficiency, and serving as an indicator of direct sunlight and sunflecks (Ballaré et al., 2012; Wargent and Jordan, 2013; Zoratti et al., 2014; Moriconi et al., 2018). Further to this, some UV-B responses can also be modulated by a UVR8-independent signal and UV-A radiation, since plants’ responses to UV-B light are regulated by both UVR8-dependent and -independent pathways (Morales et al., 2013; Li et al., 2015; Jenkins, 2017). UV-B light reportedly elicits THC accumulation in both leaves and buds (Pate, 1983; Lydon et al., 1987; Potter and Duncombe, 2012).


Soon there will be new far red info to add.
 
Aqua Man

Aqua Man

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Soon there will be new far red info to add.
And @MIMedGrower said let there be red and far red info. An there was red and far red info 😁

Red (~625–700 nm) and Far-Red (> 700 nm) Light
Red light impacts photomorphogenesis, leaf nutrient content, and stem growth. It is essential for chlorophyll synthesis and for straightening the epicotyl or hypocotyl hook of dicot seedlings (McNellis and Deng, 1995; Goins et al., 1997; Poudel et al., 2008; Johkan et al., 2012). These processes are under the influence of phytochrome control. Phytochrome is sensitive to red (~650–670 nm) light and far-red (FR) light (~705–740 nm), and to a lesser extent, blue light (~400–500 nm). For any one phytochrome, there exists a photoequilibrium of two interconvertible forms, red and FR absorbing forms (also known as Pr and Pfr, respectively). Pfr is the active form of phytochrome and it elicits physiological responses (Shinomura et al., 2000). Pr, the other form of phytochrome, is the inactive form that switches to Pfr upon absorbing ~650–670 nm light (Nagatani, 2010; Folta and Carvalho, 2015). In long day plants, various experiments suggest that flowering is promoted mostly when red light (or light creating a high Pfr/Pr ratio) is delivered during the early part of the photoperiod and when FR light (or light creating a lower Pfr/Pr ratio) is delivered toward the end of the photoperiod (Lane et al., 1965; Evans, 1976; Kadman-Zahavi and Ephrat, 1976; Thomas and Vince-Prue, 1996). However, certain cannabis genotypes such as “G-170” are insensitive to changes in the R:FR ratio, and no effect on flowering has been observed (Magagnini et al., 2018). The authors concluded that a low R:FR ratio during a long photoperiod (18 h light, 6 h dark/vegetative stage) is beneficial to the development of mature cuttings, contradicting popular belief in the cannabis industry.

The effect of red light on plant physiology has been investigated (Poudel et al., 2008; Vu et al., 2014). Poudel et al. (2008) reported that red light induced an increase in rooting percentage and root numbers in grape (Vitis vinifera) plants. Wu and Lin (2012) showed that king protea (Protea cynaroides L.) plantlets grown in red light produce a higher number of roots and new leaves. Vu et al. (2014) reported that “Lapito” tomato plants grown solely under red LED light produce a higher total root surface area, length, and number of root tips in comparison with other light treatments. Lower leaf nitrogen content was found in rice (Oryza sativa L.) and spinach (Spinacia oleracea L., cv. Megaton) grown under red light treatment (Matsuda et al., 2004; Ohashi et al., 2005; Matsuda et al., 2007). In addition, photosynthetic rate reductions observed for plants grown under red light are reportedly due to stomata being controlled more by blue light than by red light (Sharkey and Raschke, 1981; Zeiger, 1984; Bukhov et al., 1996).

Red light further regulates flowering quality, quantity, and flowering duration (Bula et al., 1991; Tennessen et al., 1994). According to Guo et al. (1998) and Thomas and Vince-Prue (1996), inhibition of flowering with red light is effected by red light receptors including phytochromes (Kelly and Lagarias, 1985). The number of visible flower buds in marigold plants was approximately five times higher when grown with fluorescent light supplemented with red LEDs, as well as under fluorescent light, when compared to monochromatic blue or red light. No flower buds formed in salvia plants when grown under monochromic blue or red light or when fluorescent light supplemented with FR light was used for marigold (Tagetes minuta) plants.

Plants grown under canopy shade conditions or in the proximity of other plants show a range of responses to changes in R:FR ratios of ambient light. This response, known as shade avoidance or the near neighbor detection response, is characterized by an acceleration of flowering time (i.e., becoming visible within the expanded floral bud) and rapid elongation of stems and leaves (Halliday et al., 1994; Smith, 1994). Kasperbauer (1988) determined that FR light reflected from neighboring seedlings increased the R:FR ratio plants received, inducing a density-dependent increase in stem length, chloroplast content, chlorophyll a/b ratio, and CO2 fixation rate, along with decreased leaf thickness. In recent years, the effect of FR light (or a low R:FR ratio) has been intensively investigated in different plant species and development stages (Li and Kubota, 2009; Finlayson et al., 2010; Mickens et al., 2018; Park and Runkle, 2018). Supplemental FR treatments increased dry mass for many greenhouse crops during vegetative development (Hogewoning et al., 2012; Lee et al., 2016; Mickens et al., 2018; Park and Runkle, 2018), but conflicting results on leaf area were reported. Hogewoning et al. (2012) reported no significant difference in leaf area for tomato (L. esculentum “Mecano”) and cucumber (Cucumis sativus “Venice”), whereas an increase in leaf area was observed for lettuce, petunia (Petunia × hybrida), geranium (Pelargonium × hortorum), and coleus (Solenostemon scutellariodes) (Lee et al., 2016; Mickens et al., 2018; Park and Runkle, 2018). Such differences in leaf area responses among species are still unknown and need to be addressed. For an extensive examination of FR light, the reader is referred to a recent review (Demotes-Mainard et al., 2016).
 
Slimsearley

Slimsearley

52
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New ish grower but Ive done an awful lot of research and opted for a tried and trusted led light called an electric sky es180v2. Its 180 watts from the wall so it costs nothing to run it really, and will more than adequately light up a 3 x 2 with really high ppfd and uniformity due to the linear lenses it uses to direct the light down, it also has around 8% far red in the spectrum, which, when paired with red light creates an emerson effect and massively increases cell growth. This light cost me 360 so it wasnt cheap but it's not exactly extortionate either in the grand scheme of things. It's really up to what you like and what you can afford but just putting it out there that this light is amazing. I yielded 5 1/2oz on my first grow... it was an auto northern lights, 1 plant, from nirvana which isnt known for being a massive yielding plant. Just my 2 cents anyway....
 
JoryK

JoryK

77
18
LED lamps don't cover the UV spectrum, as presented by daylight. This is a (IMHO) gap that CMH lamps cover to better results.
Hi, I really like the color spectrum of cmh, and have thought about running 3-600watt in my 4x8 flowering tent. The only reason I haven’t, and my biggest issue with cmh, is that you can’t use them with air cooled ballasts, and I really didn’t want to add an ac unit to my tent. With air cooled hps my central air and exhaust and intake fans keep the temps perfect. I don’t know man, it’s such a big decision. Ya kno?!? Lol.
 
MIMedGrower

MIMedGrower

17,190
438
Hi, I really like the color spectrum of cmh, and have thought about running 3-600watt in my 4x8 flowering tent. The only reason I haven’t, and my biggest issue with cmh, is that you can’t use them with air cooled ballasts, and I really didn’t want to add an ac unit to my tent. With air cooled hps my central air and exhaust and intake fans keep the temps perfect. I don’t know man, it’s such a big decision. Ya kno?!? Lol.


Maybe this info helps? My 315 cmh phillips 3100k in a vertical open reflector is about the same heat at the canopy with passive exhaust overhead as my 600w hortilux super hps in an air cooled blockbuster glass enclosed reflector with good ventilation running through.
 
growsince79

growsince79

9,065
313
If you are talking efficiency, no. You can replace a 1000w hps with a 300w led.
So in that case you can get 3 led lights for less of a power cost and have 3 times the light.

Don't pay attention to the advertises power consumption of led lights. Most of them use an equivalency rating. Something that is 1000w in advertising only actually draws 200w.

From what I've seen, leds can grow some great stuff. 1/4 the price on your power bill, less heat, more par for the $.

What's not to like?
I call bullshit. Ain't no 300w light on the planet that will produce what 1000w can.
 
cemchris

cemchris

Supporter
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I just wish all this "research" people throw into spectrum and LED lights would also carry over to actual growing, feeding, and nutes. "1st grow 3 days old.......XXXXXX HELP"

Lights are lights. Pick what ya like and go for it. It doesn't really need to be some 2 week journey of research. It ends up being about 10% of the equation of growing good plants. Why old ladies growing under floros with miracle grow and alaskan fish ferts kill it. Im not saying I don't enjoy the research and welcome it with open arms and pushing out the myths but please don't get so hyper focused on 1 thing when you are new. Specially when you have 1 to 2 lights in a tent. It's like arguing about which brand of nutes are better. People spend all this money and time on the lights and then can't even pop a seed, take a clone, or water a plant for a week without almost killing it.

Spends 600 bucks plus on LED's and talking about efficiency and spectrum.....doesnt buy a PH meter or know anything about it. Problems come up dumps Calmg into the plants. See?

By picking 1 diode or spectrum over another you arent going to leave a LB sitting on the table with under a 1000 watts of light. Lacking in the other depts can and will also tho.

God I have missed it also @Aqua Man :D
 
BigCube

BigCube

2,676
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I just wish all this "research" people throw into spectrum and LED lights would also carry over to actual growing, feeding, and nutes. "1st grow 3 days old.......XXXXXX HELP"

Lights are lights. Pick what ya like and go for it. It doesn't really need to be some 2 week journey of research. It ends up being about 10% of the equation of growing good plants. Why old ladies growing under floros with miracle grow and alaskan fish ferts kill it. Im not saying I don't enjoy the research and welcome it with open arms and pushing out the myths but please don't get so hyper focused on 1 thing when you are new. Specially when you have 1 to 2 lights in a tent. It's like arguing about which brand of nutes are better. People spend all this money and time on the lights and then can't even pop a seed, take a clone, or water a plant for a week without almost killing it.

Spends 600 bucks plus on LED's and talking about efficiency and spectrum.....doesnt buy a PH meter or know anything about it. Problems come up dumps Calmg into the plants. See?

By picking 1 diode or spectrum over another you arent going to leave a LB sitting on the table with under a 1000 watts of light. Lacking in the other depts can and will also tho.

God I have missed it also @Aqua Man :D


I enjoy research for its utility. If I'm going to buy lights, I want to buy the best one to fit my needs. 2 weeks is extreme though, cause as you say it doesnt really matter. You can grow with dollar store led bulbs. 🤣

My opinion is, you want to get the best light to suit your needs. Cost, heat, electricity, bulbs, replacement costs...

I've also been trying to not make declarative statements anymore. So I will say that I find utility in the perfect purchase. Even things like spectrum taken in to account. Not to say anything anyone else chooses is wrong. But to say what I chose is the best for my situation.

When I said before you could replace a 1000w HID with a 300w led. I was referring to the par values at canopy level. 300w may be a bit of an underestimation, but it's not far off.
I was speaking of efficiency only. The first few words of the damn post. 🤣
 
S

Shivani

1
1
Presenting Polycab Luminaires a wide range of functional and elegant lighting solutions for everything from roads to bridges to gardens to walking and jogging tracks and many other outdoor lighting requirements that are critical for urban living. You can be certain of the highest quality, durability and luminosity with Polycab. Designed for a better life.
 
JoryK

JoryK

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Presenting Polycab Luminaires a wide range of functional and elegant lighting solutions for everything from roads to bridges to gardens to walking and jogging tracks and many other outdoor lighting requirements that are critical for urban living. You can be certain of the highest quality, durability and luminosity with Polycab. Designed for a better life.
What type of growlights do you have?
 
brownstormy

brownstormy

44
8
I've been enjoying this discussion and will chime in briefly despite good points mentioned by most.

Been at this for over 35 years. We recently finished an 8 month test to figure out if our expansion will be fully LED. Tested many expensive units, and for the last 3 months of the test we also received 2 units that have yet to be released.

We're sticking with DE HPS. We were able to come very close with the LED solutions, but the top three were in the $1000-$1500 range after we had to add side lighting to match HPS yield quality. Density of the final product was a big deal, we were not able to match the DE HPS. Lack of UV was also an issue and it showed. Even with the almost-trivial power savings and not so trivial HVAC savings - the math still didn't make commercial sense.

My position is: If money is not an object, the high end LED units are a good option (600+ ACTUAL W). Especially in a warm climate and/or confined space. If you're out to grow the best buds possible, LEDs still have a few years to go - but they're a-comin'.

We ran our own tests because of what this thread demonstrates so well. Too many fan boys (on every side) and too little actual scientific method. We wanted to see for ourselves because we care about our money. We made our choice. For now.
 
MIMedGrower

MIMedGrower

17,190
438
I've been enjoying this discussion and will chime in briefly despite good points mentioned by most.

Been at this for over 35 years. We recently finished an 8 month test to figure out if our expansion will be fully LED. Tested many expensive units, and for the last 3 months of the test we also received 2 units that have yet to be released.

We're sticking with DE HPS. We were able to come very close with the LED solutions, but the top three were in the $1000-$1500 range after we had to add side lighting to match HPS yield quality. Density of the final product was a big deal, we were not able to match the DE HPS. Lack of UV was also an issue and it showed. Even with the almost-trivial power savings and not so trivial HVAC savings - the math still didn't make commercial sense.

My position is: If money is not an object, the high end LED units are a good option (600+ ACTUAL W). Especially in a warm climate and/or confined space. If you're out to grow the best buds possible, LEDs still have a few years to go - but they're a-comin'.

We ran our own tests because of what this thread demonstrates so well. Too many fan boys (on every side) and too little actual scientific method. We wanted to see for ourselves because we care about our money. We made our choice. For now.


All the big growers i talk to agree with you. Thanks for posting that info.
 
Moshmen

Moshmen

8,218
313
I've been enjoying this discussion and will chime in briefly despite good points mentioned by most.

Been at this for over 35 years. We recently finished an 8 month test to figure out if our expansion will be fully LED. Tested many expensive units, and for the last 3 months of the test we also received 2 units that have yet to be released.

We're sticking with DE HPS. We were able to come very close with the LED solutions, but the top three were in the $1000-$1500 range after we had to add side lighting to match HPS yield quality. Density of the final product was a big deal, we were not able to match the DE HPS. Lack of UV was also an issue and it showed. Even with the almost-trivial power savings and not so trivial HVAC savings - the math still didn't make commercial sense.

My position is: If money is not an object, the high end LED units are a good option (600+ ACTUAL W). Especially in a warm climate and/or confined space. If you're out to grow the best buds possible, LEDs still have a few years to go - but they're a-comin'.

We ran our own tests because of what this thread demonstrates so well. Too many fan boys (on every side) and too little actual scientific method. We wanted to see for ourselves because we care about our money. We made our choice. For now.
Thanx for sharing ur experience.
 

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