I Need Help: Yellowing Leaves, Nutrient Deficiency Symptoms

[Perception]

Ok, I've been battling this issue for months now, and I'm on my second grow where I'm experiencing it. I've done extensive research, and have tried a few remedies to no avail.

The symptoms are that after about the 3rd week of flower (photos below are week 6 of flower), the color of the leaves start fading towards yellow on old and new growth, and old lower fan leaves get VERY yellow and start dropping. Some leaves show speckling or burning symptoms. I run organic living soil that I mixed myself, although on the last grow I had four different types of soil and was experiencing the same symptoms in all pots. I do a VERY light feeding regiment of Big Bloom once a week during flower. I've tried doing a couple feedings of Tiger Bloom in this last run, but it made no noticeable difference.

Strain:
-> Bubblegum

Soil background:
-> Homemade soil: CocoCoir, Peat, EW castings, lavarock/rice hulls, alfalfa meal, kelp meal, crab meal, azomite, rock phosphate
-> Also have had this problem in FFOF new, FFOF on it's second run, and Happy Frog.

Living soil:
-> I have live red wriggler worms that are VERY happy in the pots
-> I've hit it once with compost tea when flipping
-> Aphids are always around to some degree, with lady bugs to combat
-> Lots of spring tail larva in soil
-> Seeing adult sciaridae fungs gnats now

Remedies I have tried:
-> Foliar soluble calcium spray & soil drench @100ppm
-> Foliar soluble magnesium (epsom salts) & soil drench @ 100ppm
-> Repeated use of Big Bloom, with and without homemade cal/mag added
-> A couple waterings of Tiger Bloom

WHAT SUSPECT:
-> Possible Root Aphids, although I haven't been able to find any larva or adults
-> Possible Sciaridae fungus gnat root damage
-> Possible salt nutrient lock out, although I doubt it, given multiple soil types and light feeding.
-> Possible overwatering.
-> Possible that my organic soil hasn't broken down yet, and the plants are literally starving for nutes.

Does anyone have any ideas? I might hit it with some OG Biowar root packs and foliar spray, but I really want to know WHY this is happening. Thank you!

(My homemade soil analysis is below too. This was before plants were transplanted in to it).

 

[Smerb]

You might need a better schedule of nutrient regimen. Your soil may be alive but it may need to be activated. The purple or pink on leaf stems and branches is a lack of nutrients. Unless strain specific.A few suggestions for ya.

 

[Perception]

You might need a better schedule of nutrient regimen. Your soil may be alive but it may need to be activated. The purple or pink on leaf stems and branches is a lack of nutrients. Unless strain specific.A few suggestions for ya.

Yes, it's very possible. I know someone else who uses this strain (got seeds from them), and they don't have these problems. Granted, they are using an entirely different grow method and nutrient regiment.

This is my third grow. On my first grow, I used FFOF on a different strain and the plant was happy all the way through flower. I guess I assumed that my homemade ROLS soil had enough nutes to do the same.

But my gut tells me that it's something else. Just a hunch though. I just figured that I would have seen some positive results from the couple feedings with Tiger Bloom, plus extra calcium & Magnesium.

 

[Perception]

Here's one other clue: In the first picture, see the plant that is closest to the camera? It doesn't have nearly as bad of symptoms -- almost none really. It's mother never had any symptoms either. They were all originally started from seeds.

Could it possibley be weak genetics?

 

[Smerb]

Here's one other clue: In the first picture, see the plant that is closest to the camera? It doesn't have nearly as bad of symptoms -- almost none really. It's mother never had any symptoms either. They were all originally started from seeds.

Could it possibley be weak genetics?

If your other guys pot is awesome than it's no genetic problem.

 

[Smerb]

You can add something like budswell. Or use the whole fox farm lineup. The additional benefits will get your girls healthy.

 

[Smerb]

Soils can go for about a month without a nute charge,most of the time. A good tea 25-30 days in veg can extend some nutrients into flowering.

 

[ShroomKing]

It's Nitrogen and Phosphorus deficiencies.

Simply put, the soil mix doesn't have what it takes to get you all the way to finish.

Best of luck.
Peace

 

[One drop]

It's Nitrogen and Phosphorus deficiencies.

Simply put, the soil mix doesn't have what it takes to get you all the way to finish.

Best of luck.
Peace

Yep give it a little feed with a bit more N in it I use up to 1/8 strength of N right the way through the grow to keep there N up to them .

 

[Perception]

Local grow shop carries OG Biowar, so i think I might kick things off with the root pack and or foliar, then add some more nutrients in. Hopefully the Biowar would give it a jump start.

 

[ShroomKing]

Local grow shop carries OG Biowar, so i think I might kick things off with the root pack and or foliar, then add some more nutrients in. Hopefully the Biowar would give it a jump start.

OGBIOWAR are beneficial bacteria. Great product, but not going to fix deficiency issues.

You might want to try top dressing the pots with fresh soil.

Bestof luck. Peace

 

[Perception]

OGBIOWAR are beneficial bacteria. Great product, but not going to fix deficiency issues.

You might want to try top dressing the pots with fresh soil.

Bestof luck. Peace

Thanks ShroomKing. My thinking is that maybe my soil microbes needed a jump start - the theory being that they will help make more nutrients bioavailable to the plants.

After a good chat with a local grow shop employee, he pointed out that I need to feed my worms in order to feed my plants (I'm still new to organic soil, and having been top dressing the pots at all). So top dressing with fresh soil like you said might help. I'm going to try a top dress with some alaskan forest humus, and maybe some plant nutrients mixed in like Kelp meal.

I hit it with Biowar rootpack last night. Will post if I see any positive results.

 

[Coronel]

Thanks ShroomKing. My thinking is that maybe my soil microbes needed a jump start - the theory being that they will help make more nutrients bioavailable to the plants.

After a good chat with a local grow shop employee, he pointed out that I need to feed my worms in order to feed my plants (I'm still new to organic soil, and having been top dressing the pots at all). So top dressing with fresh soil like you said might help. I'm going to try a top dress with some alaskan forest humus, and maybe some plant nutrients mixed in like Kelp meal.

I hit it with Biowar rootpack last night. Will post if I see any positive results.

Actually your hearth worms belong in the Worm-compost bin.
There is no proof they eat roots when starving as they need decompossed organic matter (That is what the fungus and spring-tails do in your worm composter, pre-chew the food for the worms)

The problem with worms in pots (especially small pots used in indoor operations is that the worms will chew the soil structure to a mush if it is rich in organic matter and YES you will get nutes from that, but your soil structure will degrade and become very fine (like when you dont harvest the worm castings on time and end up with a disgusting black paste closer to mud than to soil.

When this happens your soil which according to that study you posted, started fast draining wil become water retentive and specially will increase the perched water level (PTW) in your pots depriving your rootball of space (the upper part usually is too dry due to the evaporacion caused by the lamp, the bottom part is too wet up to the PWT and the roots can only thrive in between (on top there is no water to uptake the nutes, on the bottom there is not enought oxygen for the roots to survive.

So the plant drinks from the sweet spot and if the waterings are too spaced it will grow new roots in the usually PWT level until you water and those roots die... the plant keeps wasting energy and nutients trying to reach the nutes....

NOT that this explains your problem totally but:

The correct way to use worm casting in potted plants is to add worm castings, if one or two worms or eggs get in the pot is not that bad, but remember that worms will double its numbers every 19 to 40 days depending on the variety. (Pot= the recipient, not what we smoke lol)

Now you mention 2 different pests around your plants, while it is ok to want to grow organic, please bear in mind that even for the most requiring certifications NEEM OIL is allowed... ;) it actually dissolves most of what you mentioned, so use it as foliar spray (1 Tb spoon of Neem oil, 4 drops of soap (dishwashing liquid is ok for 2 or 3 apps no bad effects).

The fungus gnats are not a problem unless in big big numbers, however since their larvae lives in the soil you cannot get them with NEEM.

For them 2 easy solutions:
since you need to either feed your worms or ammend the soil with more worm castings, put a first layer of either worm castings either carbon and N rich mulch, then cover it with hydroton.

The gnats need high humidity (see a clue of soil too wet?) to reproduce. If they don't have access to a wet layer of the soil (and the top layer should not be wet thanks to your lights) they cannot lay eggs thus after 3 days the adults die.

How the hydroton helps: it does not stay wet after watering and provides isolation to the wet parts that the gnats want...

You can replace the hydroton with perlite or bark (I dont know if weed likes pine bark but i use it for other plants as bio mulch and keeps the gnats away...

Do you know the ladybugs are 10 times more efficient predators in their larval stage?

General Hydroponics carries a line called Bio Sevia, it is organic nutes compatible with worms and it is hybrid hydroponics/soil having quick and slow release nutes that work very good (I dont know if they are the best but that is what i use and i am really happy with the results)

I actually use it to help start my worm bins after harvesting as it gives quick food for the "Life" needed to process the food for the worms.

Have you checked your pH lately? you can start with a 6.9 and the carbonates from the watering water will remain and accumulate in the soil increasing the pH which can lock some nutes.

On the other hand if the pH gets too low in live soil (4.5 to 5.5) tiny little worms almost transparent appear out of nowhere and those little bastards DO attack roots if they are hungry, when pH gets under 5 the earth worms will tell you as they will start crawling out of the pots as happens in the worm bins.

If your pH is too high (7 or more) since you are in live soil and the worms are there you can add a shitload of used coffee to the top of the soil and mix it a little, your worms will love it and transform it in no time in food for the plant and the pH will drop nicely in a fast but controlled way that the plant will love.
To conclude:

• get rid of your pests.
• measure the pH (you can unexpensive methods or high tech, but do it properly)
• ammend the soil
• add a fast acting organic fertilizer
• reduce the ammount of water or increase the watering intervals
• next grow, keep the worms in their bin :D

I am saving a few clones from something similar, the ones i am treating with humic acids (concentrated worm castings juice) are responding the best..

 

[Irietime]

Actually your hearth worms belong in the Worm-compost bin.
There is no proof they eat roots when starving as they need decompossed organic matter (That is what the fungus and spring-tails do in your worm composter, pre-chew the food for the worms)

The problem with worms in pots (especially small pots used in indoor operations is that the worms will chew the soil structure to a mush if it is rich in organic matter and YES you will get nutes from that, but your soil structure will degrade and become very fine (like when you dont harvest the worm castings on time and end up with a disgusting black paste closer to mud than to soil.

When this happens your soil which according to that study you posted, started fast draining wil become water retentive and specially will increase the perched water level (PTW) in your pots depriving your rootball of space (the upper part usually is too dry due to the evaporacion caused by the lamp, the bottom part is too wet up to the PWT and the roots can only thrive in between (on top there is no water to uptake the nutes, on the bottom there is not enought oxygen for the roots to survive.

So the plant drinks from the sweet spot and if the waterings are too spaced it will grow new roots in the usually PWT level until you water and those roots die... the plant keeps wasting energy and nutients trying to reach the nutes....

NOT that this explains your problem totally but:

The correct way to use worm casting in potted plants is to add worm castings, if one or two worms or eggs get in the pot is not that bad, but remember that worms will double its numbers every 19 to 40 days depending on the variety. (Pot= the recipient, not what we smoke lol)

Now you mention 2 different pests around your plants, while it is ok to want to grow organic, please bear in mind that even for the most requiring certifications NEEM OIL is allowed... ;) it actually dissolves most of what you mentioned, so use it as foliar spray (1 Tb spoon of Neem oil, 4 drops of soap (dishwashing liquid is ok for 2 or 3 apps no bad effects).

The fungus gnats are not a problem unless in big big numbers, however since their larvae lives in the soil you cannot get them with NEEM.

For them 2 easy solutions:
since you need to either feed your worms or ammend the soil with more worm castings, put a first layer of either worm castings either carbon and N rich mulch, then cover it with hydroton.

The gnats need high humidity (see a clue of soil too wet?) to reproduce. If they don't have access to a wet layer of the soil (and the top layer should not be wet thanks to your lights) they cannot lay eggs thus after 3 days the adults die.

How the hydroton helps: it does not stay wet after watering and provides isolation to the wet parts that the gnats want...

You can replace the hydroton with perlite or bark (I dont know if weed likes pine bark but i use it for other plants as bio mulch and keeps the gnats away...

Do you know the ladybugs are 10 times more efficient predators in their larval stage?

General Hydroponics carries a line called Bio Sevia, it is organic nutes compatible with worms and it is hybrid hydroponics/soil having quick and slow release nutes that work very good (I dont know if they are the best but that is what i use and i am really happy with the results)

I actually use it to help start my worm bins after harvesting as it gives quick food for the "Life" needed to process the food for the worms.

Have you checked your pH lately? you can start with a 6.9 and the carbonates from the watering water will remain and accumulate in the soil increasing the pH which can lock some nutes.

On the other hand if the pH gets too low in live soil (4.5 to 5.5) tiny little worms almost transparent appear out of nowhere and those little bastards DO attack roots if they are hungry, when pH gets under 5 the earth worms will tell you as they will start crawling out of the pots as happens in the worm bins.

If your pH is too high (7 or more) since you are in live soil and the worms are there you can add a shitload of used coffee to the top of the soil and mix it a little, your worms will love it and transform it in no time in food for the plant and the pH will drop nicely in a fast but controlled way that the plant will love.
To conclude:

• get rid of your pests.
• measure the pH (you can unexpensive methods or high tech, but do it properly)
• ammend the soil
• add a fast acting organic fertilizer
• reduce the ammount of water or increase the watering intervals
• next grow, keep the worms in their bin :D

I am saving a few clones from something similar, the ones i am treating with humic acids (concentrated worm castings juice) are responding the best..

Thanks, that was sound advice for everybody

 

[tinderthumbs]

I have this same problem almost to the t as yours done every thing u have done and still the same bs always about 3 weeks in to flower I have tryd teas. ewc. nutes. no nutes. sprays. bug sprays. still getting it on every grow on every plant just about

 

[Coronel]

Neither of you mention RH in the setup, nor temperatures.
You can't be growing outside?

Also i just saw the previous to last picture of a leaf, did you look at that on a loupe/microscope ? from the picture cannot tell if it is insect damage, insect droppins, or fungal.

If not in the south hemisphere growing outdoors, what light, type, watts, distance from the ladies?

 

[tinderthumbs]

same as they always been if I knew how to link you to my thread that sure help

 

[tinderthumbs]

what light, type, watts, distance from the ladies
600hps and 315 lec distance 15inc

 

[xavier7995]

Those fungus gnats might actually be winged root aphids. Found myself in the same situation recently. Thought it was just some gnats and was chasing deficiencies; nope, nutrients in the soil were fine but the roots were just wrecked.

 

[Coronel]

They are not difficult to differentiate, adult fungus gnats is stylized like a mosquito, the root aphid adult is rounder and less "sleek", yes there are many types of winged RA but in general all are roundish.

Only a microscope or magnifying glass can tell.

@thinderthumbs: What are your humidity conditions? a 400 hps in a heated indoors place being 15"from the plant might cause something similar to what is described above.

Are your leaves filmsy and crispy? (like smoking paper?)

I will go trought your posts to find your conditions... :D