Seamaiden
Living dead girl
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Rain does not wash off trichomes. :)
INDOOR - OUTDOOR: the most efficient cash crop.
ethnoman
- 124
- 43
I’ve found similar differences between strains, with the addition that winter grown plants have way more purple hues in their nugs making them very pretty indeed.
Grow Up
- 106
- 63
I have found winter plants will have much less flowering sites and so many less hairs but the ovules get much fatter and the leaves of the buds are waaaaay frostier. The results of summer and hydro look the same but winter grown looks like a totally different strain in the bag. But all tastes the same.
N
Noah Dove
- 3
- 1
i use organic "Safer" brand insect killing Soap, its organic, and EXTREMELY effective in controlling caterpillars. Theres also a caterpillar killer by the same makers. I use both these sprays in conjunction. 5 years ago, i had a few cata. every few Oz. Now I have literally ONE or TWO a harvest per year.
The insect Soap, is alot like surfboard wax, has a bitter smell, but works FANTASTIC!
The cata killer is an organic fungicide I believe, best to use beginning of moth season, and early in veg.
Pros: Cheap/Effective/ORGANIC
Cons:
Works only on LEAF EATING pests. And have to re-spray every few weeks. Doesnt work on Mites. Seems everything else is great!
Wears off/ washes off easily. Also leaves little puddles of white where spray collects. Sometimes looks like mold, but u can rub it off if in doubt.
Dont spray late in flower!,water based, causes mold.
They also make cloth screens (different hole sizes) and they're pretty cheap. Just cover your lady in it and its all good! Most let like 90%+ of sunlight through also. Get the white ones.
Supercharge
- 261
- 93
Thanks for the tip bro, just had a read up on it. Sounds good!
BuckP
- 19
- 3
Agree with Noah. We use both Safer Caterpillar Killer and Safer Insect Killing Soap. My young "genius bar" bud at the local hydro store taught me Safer Caterpillar Killer is unique in that it requires "clean water", ie, distilled water without all the nasty crap in technically "pure" tap water. Apparently the stuff in tap water - in our area, at least - is enough to kill the biological process in Safer Caterpillar Killer that makes the little bastards explode from within. SO we no longer mix Caterpillar Killer and Insect Killing soap - we use tap water with Safer Insect Killing Soap then distilled water with Caterpillar Killer. If you have extra clean water where you live, you're fine without using distilled.
Both these products work GREAT but you've gotta use caterpillar killer as soon as you see the first insect of any kind around young buds. Once moths lay eggs on growing buds, those eggs lay there waiting to hatch til surrounded by your delicious bud... The year we lost some huge colas to the ravages of cats we saw caterpillars but naively presumed they were just passing though. Nope. Brer caterpillar came out of a bud - you caught him as he was relocating to another juicy future nug....
Caterpillars tend to be one of those sort of pests most of us find out about only after we lose some bud. Zap any eggs that might be there early then every 7-10 days afterwards. We use insect killing soap on the same schedule.
Both these products work GREAT but you've gotta use caterpillar killer as soon as you see the first insect of any kind around young buds. Once moths lay eggs on growing buds, those eggs lay there waiting to hatch til surrounded by your delicious bud... The year we lost some huge colas to the ravages of cats we saw caterpillars but naively presumed they were just passing though. Nope. Brer caterpillar came out of a bud - you caught him as he was relocating to another juicy future nug....
Caterpillars tend to be one of those sort of pests most of us find out about only after we lose some bud. Zap any eggs that might be there early then every 7-10 days afterwards. We use insect killing soap on the same schedule.
Seamaiden
Living dead girl
- 23,596
- 638
For those (in California, I don't know how other states regulate these products) there are two excellent Bt products available, but you have to have an operators permit to buy them legally, with correct packaging, etc. One is DiPel, I think most growers have heard of it. The other I've just read of that's said to be more effective against cutworms is XenTari.
Spraying should begin as soon as you see buds begin to set, continue every week or two until one to two weeks prior to harvest.
There is no need to use distilled water with any of these products, the "contaminants" have no real effect on the efficacy of the products.
Hate to say it, but it sounds like you fellows weren't prepared. Start spraying, in rotation, every week, Bt alternated with Spinosad. Spinosad is now known to harm honeybees, so it should only be sprayed in the evening, fortunately I haven't found anything that says the residue is harmful, so by morning it should be ok for those pollinators. Bt is not known to harm pollinators or honeybees, but because the bacteria can be harmed by sunlight I also spray that in the evenings only.
Spraying should begin as soon as you see buds begin to set, continue every week or two until one to two weeks prior to harvest.
There is no need to use distilled water with any of these products, the "contaminants" have no real effect on the efficacy of the products.
Tuku
- 161
- 63
I believe that's an incorrect assumption. If you look at the photolysis half-life, you'll see that it remains for far longer than a single night and that it requires sunlight to breakdown in any significant way on plant surfaces. The residue still contains both active ingredients (spinosyn A & D) so will still be harmful to bees. You're using an insecticide and organic or not, you can't escape the fact it will kill insects, including those beneficial to plants.
Environmental Fate
The routes of spinosad dissipation and transformation in the environment include photodegradation and biotransformation on plant surfaces, abiotic hydrolysis, aqueous photolysis, photodegradation on soil, and biotransformation via soil microorganisms. Volatilization from plant or soil is not a mechanism of transport of spinosad in the environment.
Photolysis is the primary route of dissipation from plant surfaces. After initial photodegradation, residues are available for metabolism by plant biochemical processes. Abiotic hydrolysis is relatively unimportant compared to other dissipation routes. Spinosad does not degrade at a significant rate of hydrolysis under neutral conditions and slowly hydrolyzes under basic conditions. Aqueous photolysis is rapid in natural sunlight, and is the primary route of degradation in aquatic systems exposed to sunlight. In the soil environment, spinosad adsorbs strongly to soil particles and is unlikely to leach to great depths. It is photodegraded quickly on soil exposed to sunlight, but the degradation rate is decreased at longer exposure times. Spinosad is quickly metabolized by soil microorganisms under aerobic condition. Under anaerobic conditions, the degradation rate is slower.
Persistence and Metabolic Fate on Plant Surfaces
Several studies were conducted to investigate the dissipation and fate of spinosad applied to foliage. It was demonstrated that spinosyn A and D rapidly dissipated from plant surfaces and that photolysis was the predominant mechanism of dissipation (Table 6).
(see link for table)
The proposed photodegradation/metabolism pathway for spinosyn A and D involves the initial formation of nonpolar photoproducts through N-demethylation of the forosamine sugar or O-demethylation of the rhamnose sugar. With further photodegradation, polar and non-extractable metabolites are formed that are subject to biochemical processes and incorporation into natural components of plants.
www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/emon/pubs/fatememo/spinosad_fate.pdf
Seamaiden
Living dead girl
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I've done some cursory searching for research on this subject, and what I have found is that the residue has not been found to be harmful, as I stated and you quoted. Based on the last paragraph of what you've posted, it looks like the exact same conclusion has been drawn, though a mechanism, that being photolysis (degradation via exposure to sunlight), which is why the spinosyns may dissipate (more?) rapidly from plant surfaces, thus leading me again to conclude that the residue does not pose an issue.
This was the paper that I went off of. Honestly, I think my pollinators and I are ok.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15366583
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abstract
Spinosad is a natural insecticide derived from an actinomycete bacterium species, Saccharopolyspora spinosa (Mertz and Yao 1990), that displays the efficacy of a synthetic insecticide. It consists of the two most active metabolites, designated spinosyn A and D. Both spinosyns are readily degraded in moist aerobic soil, and field dissipation, which is quite rapid (half-life, 0.3-0.5 d) can be attributed to photolysis or a combination of metabolism and photolysis.
Spinosad causes neurological effects in insects that are consistent with the general activation of nicotinic acetylcholine receptors but by a mechanism that is novel among known insecticide compounds. Spinosad has a high level of efficacy for lepidopteran larvae, as well as some Diptera, Coleoptera, Thysanoptera, and Hymenoptera, but has limited to no activity to other insects and exhibits low toxicity to mammals and other wildlife.
Although spinosad has low toxicity to most beneficial insects, initial acute laboratory tests indicated that spinosad is intrinsically toxic to pollinators.
The hazard of spinosad to bees was evaluated using a tiered approach. Initial acute laboratory exposures were conducted, followed by toxicity of residues of spinosad on treated foliage, greenhouse studies to assess acute as well as chronic toxicity, confined field assessments, and finally full field studies using a variety of crops under typical use conditions.
These data were used to assess the potential of adverse effects on foraging bees following the use of spinosad.
This research has clearly demonstrated that spinosad residues that have been allowed to dry for 3 hr are not acutely harmful to honeybees when low-volume and ultralow-volume sprays are used.
Further, glasshouse and semifield studies have demonstrated that dried residues are not acutely toxic, and although pollen and nectar from sprayed plants may have transient effects on brood development, the residues do not overtly affect hive viability of either the honeybee or the bumblebee.
Field studies in which typical application methods of spinosad were used on a variety of crops have demonstrated that spinosad has low risk to adult honeybees and has little or no effect on hive activity and brood development. The collective evidence from these studies indicates that once spinosad residues have dried on plant foliage, generally 3 hr or less, the risk of spinosad to honeybees is negligible.
This was the paper that I went off of. Honestly, I think my pollinators and I are ok.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15366583
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Abstract
Spinosad is a natural insecticide derived from an actinomycete bacterium species, Saccharopolyspora spinosa (Mertz and Yao 1990), that displays the efficacy of a synthetic insecticide. It consists of the two most active metabolites, designated spinosyn A and D. Both spinosyns are readily degraded in moist aerobic soil, and field dissipation, which is quite rapid (half-life, 0.3-0.5 d) can be attributed to photolysis or a combination of metabolism and photolysis.
Spinosad causes neurological effects in insects that are consistent with the general activation of nicotinic acetylcholine receptors but by a mechanism that is novel among known insecticide compounds. Spinosad has a high level of efficacy for lepidopteran larvae, as well as some Diptera, Coleoptera, Thysanoptera, and Hymenoptera, but has limited to no activity to other insects and exhibits low toxicity to mammals and other wildlife.
Although spinosad has low toxicity to most beneficial insects, initial acute laboratory tests indicated that spinosad is intrinsically toxic to pollinators.
The hazard of spinosad to bees was evaluated using a tiered approach. Initial acute laboratory exposures were conducted, followed by toxicity of residues of spinosad on treated foliage, greenhouse studies to assess acute as well as chronic toxicity, confined field assessments, and finally full field studies using a variety of crops under typical use conditions.
These data were used to assess the potential of adverse effects on foraging bees following the use of spinosad.
This research has clearly demonstrated that spinosad residues that have been allowed to dry for 3 hr are not acutely harmful to honeybees when low-volume and ultralow-volume sprays are used.
Further, glasshouse and semifield studies have demonstrated that dried residues are not acutely toxic, and although pollen and nectar from sprayed plants may have transient effects on brood development, the residues do not overtly affect hive viability of either the honeybee or the bumblebee.
Field studies in which typical application methods of spinosad were used on a variety of crops have demonstrated that spinosad has low risk to adult honeybees and has little or no effect on hive activity and brood development. The collective evidence from these studies indicates that once spinosad residues have dried on plant foliage, generally 3 hr or less, the risk of spinosad to honeybees is negligible.
Capulator
likes to smell trees.
Supporter
- 6,070
- 313
permanent solution to this problem is mosquito netting. no white butterfly, no green caterpillar.
Seamaiden
Living dead girl
- 23,596
- 638
Aye, what I just couldn't afford this year (not with TWO weddings in the same month and all). Netting will eliminate a whole host of problems associated with OD cultivation.
Fascinating observations! I don't raise wigglers, I raise mealworms (originally for my chickens). I am now getting so much frass that I've been able to stop using the worm castings. Everything I compost goes into a single small bin, we just don't generate enough waste for an actual compost pile. It's whatever food scraps the birds don't eat. I figure that since I alternate the Spinosad in rotation with Bt and what remains isn't being concentrated in one location, I'm probably ok. I can only assume we've still got segmented worms down in the dirt, but it's been SO long since we've had a good enough rain for me to even see them, ya know?
Tuku
- 161
- 63
@Seamaiden, I'll point out a couple of problems with that paper. Firstly, there is a conflict of interest between the funding of the study and the results of the study. If you look at the author information, this is what you'll find:
Dow AgroSciences, Field Exposure and Effects Laboratory, 9330 Zionsville Road, Indianapolis, IN 46268, USA.
Dow Agro produces and sells spinosad. It is in their best interests to have spinosad seen in a positive light. This doesn't automatically discredit the results, but it does warrant further research.
Another problem is the measure of toxicity they've used, ie. acute versus chronic. There is no mention of chronic toxicity, yet this is more likely to be a problem for bees. It is chonic toxicity and multiple stressors that have been implicated in CCD. However, other studies have found mixed results on the chronic toxicity of spinosad to bees, depending on the species of bee and the product being used.
For residual toxicity (supporting information Table S3), contact exposure to dry residues of spinosad (up to 200 g AI ha−1) on leaves/flowers in crops such as alfalfa, citrus and kiwifruit or glass plates was either slightly harmful or harmless to honey bees up to 100 h after exposure. Although no lethal effects were observed on honey bees, several authors demonstrated that other bee genera, including Bombus and Megachile, but not Protonectarina, were more sensitive. In addition,exposure might also occur via wet residues. For formulated spinosad (480 g AI L−1) and spinetoram (250 g AI kg−1), high toxicity was obtained after both wet and dry residue exposure, whereas for the fruitfly bait a difference between wet and dry exposure was noted only after 24 h. Taking into account the toxicity seen after exposure to wet residue, Mayes et al. found that toxicity was not related to the spinosad volume applied. Furthermore, chronic oral intake of dry residue of real spinosad field rates via pollen was safe for B. impatiens colonies.
3.2.2 Sublethal effects on pollinators
For honeybees, dry residues of spinosad were harmless to larvae. On the other hand, when B. impatiens colonies were chronically fed on pollen treated with realistic field rates, the weight of emerging bees was lower, as was the foraging efficiency of adults on artificial flowers (previously fed during their larval development with spinosad-treated pollen). Recently, Besard et al. observed that oralexposureof B.terrestris to spinosad and spinetoram did not cause adverse effects on reproduction and on foraging behaviour when applied at 1/1000 and 1/100 of their respective field recommended rates. Therefore, the newer spinosyn (spinoteram) may pose less risk to foraging and pollination by bumblebees than spinosad. However, actual highest recommended field rates induced 100% of mortality in a worst case exposure scenario in the laboratory, and field studies suggested that side effects on brood production and foraging activities of bees may occur depending on field application rate and crop considered (see section 5). However, there is currently a need in studies assessing thoroughly possible sublethal effects of spinosyns on key traits in the honey bee and wild bees.
Besides semi-field tests, several greenhouse studies were conducted to address the effect of a foliar application (residues) of spinosad on both honey bees and bumblebees. For honey bees, the application of 100 g AI ha−1 spinosad (250 g AI L−1 formulation) in a volume of 1000 L ha−1 on strawberry crops resulted in a delay in pupal formation for young larvae of up to 3 days after spinosad application, while the survival of older larvae was affected during a longer time period (up to 7 days). For bumblebees, a 2 day exposure of foraging bumblebee colonies to spinosad residue (120 g AI ha−1; 250 g AI L−1 formulation in a volume of 1200 L ha−1) was also shown to be detrimental for the brood. Eggs and early larval development were inhibited when colonies were placed in the greenhouse on days 0, 2 and 4 after the application of the insecticide.
Th above excerpts are from the following article:
Biondi, A., Mommaerts, V., Smagghe, G., Viñuela, E., Zappalà, L., & Desneux, N. (2012). The non‐target impact of spinosyns on beneficial arthropods. Pest Management Science, 68(12), 1523-1536.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
I'm not saying spinosad residues are categorically toxic to bees, as clearly there are a number of variables to be considered which affect the degree of toxicity, but I wouldn't be so sure that spinosad is actually harmless to bees.
Dow AgroSciences, Field Exposure and Effects Laboratory, 9330 Zionsville Road, Indianapolis, IN 46268, USA.
Dow Agro produces and sells spinosad. It is in their best interests to have spinosad seen in a positive light. This doesn't automatically discredit the results, but it does warrant further research.
Another problem is the measure of toxicity they've used, ie. acute versus chronic. There is no mention of chronic toxicity, yet this is more likely to be a problem for bees. It is chonic toxicity and multiple stressors that have been implicated in CCD. However, other studies have found mixed results on the chronic toxicity of spinosad to bees, depending on the species of bee and the product being used.
For residual toxicity (supporting information Table S3), contact exposure to dry residues of spinosad (up to 200 g AI ha−1) on leaves/flowers in crops such as alfalfa, citrus and kiwifruit or glass plates was either slightly harmful or harmless to honey bees up to 100 h after exposure. Although no lethal effects were observed on honey bees, several authors demonstrated that other bee genera, including Bombus and Megachile, but not Protonectarina, were more sensitive. In addition,exposure might also occur via wet residues. For formulated spinosad (480 g AI L−1) and spinetoram (250 g AI kg−1), high toxicity was obtained after both wet and dry residue exposure, whereas for the fruitfly bait a difference between wet and dry exposure was noted only after 24 h. Taking into account the toxicity seen after exposure to wet residue, Mayes et al. found that toxicity was not related to the spinosad volume applied. Furthermore, chronic oral intake of dry residue of real spinosad field rates via pollen was safe for B. impatiens colonies.
3.2.2 Sublethal effects on pollinators
For honeybees, dry residues of spinosad were harmless to larvae. On the other hand, when B. impatiens colonies were chronically fed on pollen treated with realistic field rates, the weight of emerging bees was lower, as was the foraging efficiency of adults on artificial flowers (previously fed during their larval development with spinosad-treated pollen). Recently, Besard et al. observed that oralexposureof B.terrestris to spinosad and spinetoram did not cause adverse effects on reproduction and on foraging behaviour when applied at 1/1000 and 1/100 of their respective field recommended rates. Therefore, the newer spinosyn (spinoteram) may pose less risk to foraging and pollination by bumblebees than spinosad. However, actual highest recommended field rates induced 100% of mortality in a worst case exposure scenario in the laboratory, and field studies suggested that side effects on brood production and foraging activities of bees may occur depending on field application rate and crop considered (see section 5). However, there is currently a need in studies assessing thoroughly possible sublethal effects of spinosyns on key traits in the honey bee and wild bees.
Besides semi-field tests, several greenhouse studies were conducted to address the effect of a foliar application (residues) of spinosad on both honey bees and bumblebees. For honey bees, the application of 100 g AI ha−1 spinosad (250 g AI L−1 formulation) in a volume of 1000 L ha−1 on strawberry crops resulted in a delay in pupal formation for young larvae of up to 3 days after spinosad application, while the survival of older larvae was affected during a longer time period (up to 7 days). For bumblebees, a 2 day exposure of foraging bumblebee colonies to spinosad residue (120 g AI ha−1; 250 g AI L−1 formulation in a volume of 1200 L ha−1) was also shown to be detrimental for the brood. Eggs and early larval development were inhibited when colonies were placed in the greenhouse on days 0, 2 and 4 after the application of the insecticide.
Th above excerpts are from the following article:
Biondi, A., Mommaerts, V., Smagghe, G., Viñuela, E., Zappalà, L., & Desneux, N. (2012). The non‐target impact of spinosyns on beneficial arthropods. Pest Management Science, 68(12), 1523-1536.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...sCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
I'm not saying spinosad residues are categorically toxic to bees, as clearly there are a number of variables to be considered which affect the degree of toxicity, but I wouldn't be so sure that spinosad is actually harmless to bees.
greengiant42
- 17
- 3
cap is the foliar pack effective on caterpillars?
Capulator
likes to smell trees.
Supporter
- 6,070
- 313
yes it has BTi.
jitty bo
- 101
- 28
what is in the foliar pack if you don't mind me asking
GoldiNugs
- 147
- 63
Interested in knowing too...
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