Is This A Phosphorous Deficiency? Nitrogen Toxicity?

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bibbles

bibbles

Hydro Growers:
1. Are you growing from seed or clones?

Clone.

2. How old are your plants?

Week 6 of flower.

3. How tall are your plants?

2.5 feet.

4. What type of hydro system are you using?

Coco, one gallon fabric pots, usually with Blumats, but hand watering this time around.

5. What brand/type of nutrients are you using?

Per gallon:
15ml Canna Coco
4ml Bloombastic
3ml PK 13/14
1ml MBFerts Bloom and Trichome
0.5g AgSil
0.25g Whey

6. What is the Ph of your nutrient solution?

5.8-6

7. What is the PPM/EC of your tap water?

RO, so ~10ppm.

8. What is the PPM/EC of your nutrient solution?

1200ppm (Hanna)

9. What is the temperature of your nutrient solution?

Probably 60-62F, give or take. If I leave half for the morning it'll be more like 70-72.

12. Do you foliar feed or spray your plants with anything?

Spray-n-grow, Bill's Perfect Fertilizer, Coco Wet
CA-25, Seaplex, Seagreen, AACT
Aptus Fasilitor and Massboost
Spinosad
Axiom
Bud Factor X
Regalia

13. What kind of lights do you use and how many watts combined? (HPS, MH, fluorescent, halogen, incandescent "plant lights")

4x DE HPS at 1150w or so ("super lumens").

14. How close are your lights to the plants?

3ft.

15. What size is your grow space in square feet?

130sq/ft

16. What is the temperature and humidity in your grow space?

75F, 55RH.

17. Have you noticed any insect activity in your grow space?

Happy little springtails.

18. How much experience do you have growing?

Years, but cycles are typically not back to back.

1250ppm bottled CO2.

Now that that's out of the way, I'm essentially waking up to tops with crispy, distorted leaves, despite those very leaves being perfectly fine the night before. Things were more clearly a phosphorous deficiency earlier in the grow, and watering more often seemed to solve the issue. It came back up, so I upped the phosphorous in my solution and again, it seemed fine; however, it's back again, and this time it seems to be moving faster. Previously a leaf would yellow, black spot down the center, typical; however, this time leaves are dying before they even have a chance to yellow.

I feel like I'm pushing plenty of P, so I have no idea, is Mendo Breath just the hungriest plant in the world? This issue cropped up in previous runs, not quite as bad, but... it's getting hard for me to not just hit them at 5000ppm, and abandon these shit genetics forever. :(

Sour 91 on the side is doing fine, a couple clawed leaves away from the light, presumably due to the nutrient strength, but they're also in 3 gallon fabric pots.
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Seraphine

Seraphine

Kinda looks light the lights might be too close. That looks like light burn. See how the top leaves are bleached and crispy...
 
bibbles

bibbles

It's not really as top down as it looks, there are plenty of tops wherein the lowest bud has this issue, or it's somewhere in the middle, as well as some lower branches I missed lollipopping, not to mention tops that have collapsed on the lower trellis and show the issue, while tops closer to the light do not.

Further, the first three pictures are of tops that recovered somewhat from this issue happening earlier, the last two are of this most recent bullshit. The former were included because I feel like those purple leaf edges should make this the most obvious issue ever, but as far as I can tell I'm the only person in the world who's ever seen this happen. :(
 
Seraphine

Seraphine

There’s a way to make leaves do that for aesthetic reasons, it is some kind of deficiency or abundance. I’ll look it up soon here....
 
Seraphine

Seraphine

Copper deficiency. You use reverse osmosis so nearly all minerals are removed (including copper). The canna A and B don’t have copper. You have to buy the canna boost to get copper. Not sure about the rest of your supplemental nutes.

Your pH is in the correct range for copper absorption. Check your nutrients for adequate copper.

See if anyone else chimes in..
 
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bibbles

bibbles

I have seen pictures of plants purported to be copper deficient, but those had purple leaves with yellow edges, not yellow (or green) leaves with purple edges. This strain purples up in the last few weeks, and I'm there, so new purple stuff won't provide useful information; however, the leaves pictured above have been purple like that since week two or three.

Additionally, I think you'll have a much harder time finding someone who root-feeds Boost than you will finding someone who uses Canna Coco but skips the Boost entirely. Personally, I'd recommend foliar feeding it as I typically do.

I'm still leaning toward phosphorous, the reason it's hitting so hard and fast is likely because the pots are so small, and thus can be depleted quite quickly, even before actually drying out. I mean, with normal irrigation most people would be feeding pots of this size like 10-20 times a day... just like with rock wool cubes of this size.

So, for now I'm just gonna up the frequency, I really can't push things harder unless I back off the base and further increase the PK, but I'm maxed out on Bloombastic, plus a 50% dose of 13/14, plus the whey? I might just back off the base to prevent burning if I'm gonna hit them more often.

EDIT: Bloombastic contains the same micronutrients as Boost, including copper. I don't know the ratios, but at 4ml/gal this definitely isn't the issue. I was using the Big Bud/Overdrive clone combo from MBFerts previously, and the former is actually fairly low in phosphorous (0-1-3), so that might explain previous issues. Got stuck hand watering and switched nutrients, though this was about the time I'd have switched to the Overdrive clone, which has more phosphorous as well?

Tiny pots, hand watering, and a P hungry strain, that's probably all. Oh well, I'm definitely done with it after this run, next time I'll make sure the Blumats get done and... maybe stick with PK 13/14? I got a bunch of the Big Bud/Overdrive combo left, but perhaps it just isn't suited to tiny pots and Blumats? Maybe I'll move up to 3gal pots just to keep on the safe side. :/
 
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bibbles

bibbles

Hm, MBFerts base has even less phosphorous in it, but again, I think this is more to do with frequency and capacity than actual phosphorous content. :/
 
Seraphine

Seraphine

Just another thought, If your night time temps get cold enough your plants with a purple genotype will express those colors.

That’s not phosphorus deficiency. I’ve had phosphorous deficiency a few times and it starts on the lower leaves and works it’s way up the plant. Phosphorus deficiency starts with unsymmetrical yellow spots all over the lower leaves then turn to to brown spots, crisp up and die.
 
K

Kot

My plants would burn hard at 1200 PPM, they start burning at 400 PPM. Check the run off.

It is not light burn, the lights are at 3 feet, mine are at 2 feet.

This can be some lockout of micros.
 
FatManatee

FatManatee

Unlikely, but check for bud rot.
 
Seraphine

Seraphine

Unlikely, but check for bud rot.
I thought that too. Especially on those last few pictures. I can’t get a decent view of the buds and it kind of just looks like the leaves died and curled up around the buds, casting a shadow on them...
 
3 balls

3 balls

Hydro Growers:
1. Are you growing from seed or clones?

Clone.

2. How old are your plants?

Week 6 of flower.

3. How tall are your plants?

2.5 feet.

4. What type of hydro system are you using?

Coco, one gallon fabric pots, usually with Blumats, but hand watering this time around.

5. What brand/type of nutrients are you using?

Per gallon:
15ml Canna Coco
4ml Bloombastic
3ml PK 13/14
1ml MBFerts Bloom and Trichome
0.5g AgSil
0.25g Whey

6. What is the Ph of your nutrient solution?

5.8-6

7. What is the PPM/EC of your tap water?

RO, so ~10ppm.

8. What is the PPM/EC of your nutrient solution?

1200ppm (Hanna)

9. What is the temperature of your nutrient solution?

Probably 60-62F, give or take. If I leave half for the morning it'll be more like 70-72.

12. Do you foliar feed or spray your plants with anything?

Spray-n-grow, Bill's Perfect Fertilizer, Coco Wet
CA-25, Seaplex, Seagreen, AACT
Aptus Fasilitor and Massboost
Spinosad
Axiom
Bud Factor X
Regalia

13. What kind of lights do you use and how many watts combined? (HPS, MH, fluorescent, halogen, incandescent "plant lights")

4x DE HPS at 1150w or so ("super lumens").

14. How close are your lights to the plants?

3ft.

15. What size is your grow space in square feet?

130sq/ft

16. What is the temperature and humidity in your grow space?

75F, 55RH.

17. Have you noticed any insect activity in your grow space?

Happy little springtails.

18. How much experience do you have growing?

Years, but cycles are typically not back to back.

1250ppm bottled CO2.

Now that that's out of the way, I'm essentially waking up to tops with crispy, distorted leaves, despite those very leaves being perfectly fine the night before. Things were more clearly a phosphorous deficiency earlier in the grow, and watering more often seemed to solve the issue. It came back up, so I upped the phosphorous in my solution and again, it seemed fine; however, it's back again, and this time it seems to be moving faster. Previously a leaf would yellow, black spot down the center, typical; however, this time leaves are dying before they even have a chance to yellow.

I feel like I'm pushing plenty of P, so I have no idea, is Mendo Breath just the hungriest plant in the world? This issue cropped up in previous runs, not quite as bad, but... it's getting hard for me to not just hit them at 5000ppm, and abandon these shit genetics forever. :(

Sour 91 on the side is doing fine, a couple clawed leaves away from the light, presumably due to the nutrient strength, but they're also in 3 gallon fabric pots. View attachment 850957 View attachment 850958 View attachment 850959 View attachment 850960 View attachment 850961
I would say deficiency or toxicity if it wasn't happening overnight. Any chance you're hitting some areas a little hard or too close to lights on with one of your foliars?

My plants would burn hard at 1200 PPM, they start burning at 400 PPM. Check the run off.

It is not light burn, the lights are at 3 feet, mine are at 2 feet.

This can be some lockout of micros.
I don't think it's light burn either but at 2' I'm guessing you're not running DE HPS at 1150 like he is.
 
bibbles

bibbles

3. How tall are your plants?

2.5 feet.
...after topping three times. I may have undersold their size, especially relative to the one gallon pots. I needed to be watering more often a while ago, or... bigger pots, or make sure the irrigation is good to go before flip...

Either way, I'm done with these genetics, next cycle it's gonna be Sour '91; I threw a couple in on the side and they're doing great, despite being somewhat neglected/overfed.
IMG_20190120_1412306.jpg
 
bibbles

bibbles

Just another thought, If your night time temps get cold enough your plants with a purple genotype will express those colors.

That’s not phosphorus deficiency. I’ve had phosphorous deficiency a few times and it starts on the lower leaves and works it’s way up the plant. Phosphorus deficiency starts with unsymmetrical yellow spots all over the lower leaves then turn to to brown spots, crisp up and die.

I have not turned the temps down yet, but probably this week. Purpling has started, but this purpling is different from the previous purpling.

What you described is what's happening, just at a greatly accelerated rate. The first time it wasn't that fast, but now that the plants are bigger, so it was faster.
 
Unit541

Unit541

Checked for build up in the coco? Can do this sort of thing... accelerates as the plants get bigger because they draw water faster, concentrating salts faster.

I too, grow in 1 gal. fabric pots and coco. The plants get huge, and I water every 1-3 hours depending on density.
 
bibbles

bibbles

Checked for build up in the coco? Can do this sort of thing... accelerates as the plants get bigger because they draw water faster, concentrating salts faster.

That was probably part of the issue, a result of raising the EC instead of the frequency, but between time and hand watering it kinda had to be. :(

I too, grow in 1 gal. fabric pots and coco. The plants get huge, and I water every 1-3 hours depending on density.

Mind if I ask about your nutrient situation? I didn't really consider how little phosphorous was in Big Bud, people said something about the aminos making up for it, but aminos convert to nitrogen, and Canna is already nitrogen heavy, which is why I mentioned nitrogen toxicity.

I just happened to have some left over Bloombastic (good stuff, not for irrigation) and PK 13/14 (no idea where this came from), which was lucky, but I'm out of all that, as well as the PK Heavy (samples to the rescue) I used last week. I have a good amount of the Big Bud clone, Overdrive clone, and l-glycine powder (whey is not for reservoirs) left, but... I think they're probably a bad match for Canna, especially as the Sour '91 seems to prefer less nitrogen.

I'll probably just go for PK 13/14 and foliar Boost, though Golden Tree/Flower Stacker has interested me for some time now...
 
Unit541

Unit541

Mind if I ask about your nutrient situation? I didn't really consider how little phosphorous was in Big Bud, people said something about the aminos making up for it, but aminos convert to nitrogen, and Canna is already nitrogen heavy, which is why I mentioned nitrogen toxicity.

I just happened to have some left over Bloombastic (good stuff, not for irrigation) and PK 13/14 (no idea where this came from), which was lucky, but I'm out of all that, as well as the PK Heavy (samples to the rescue) I used last week. I have a good amount of the Big Bud clone, Overdrive clone, and l-glycine powder (whey is not for reservoirs) left, but... I think they're probably a bad match for Canna, especially as the Sour '91 seems to prefer less nitrogen.

I'll probably just go for PK 13/14 and foliar Boost, though Golden Tree/Flower Stacker has interested me for some time now...

I don't use anything you have mentioned. I feed Jacks + Cal Nitrate at .8 to 1.2 ec in veg, 1 to 1.5 ec in flower. I do hit them with Jacks 10-30-20 for like week 2 and 3 of bloom, then back to regular feed.
 
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