Just thinking out loud about new tech and what the future might look like

[ttystikk]

So here I am up late again, thinking about strange stuff. We Farmers use a LOT of power, and anything we can do to cut our usage will benefit us as surely as if we got an extra few zips per crop.

Bear with me, I'm not quite sure where this is going, but so far it seems to make sense;

For the third winter in a row, I'm using my chiller to heat my house, thus effectively getting double duty from the electricity I'm using to light my rooms, to wit: running bulbs makes heat, the water removes that heat and carries it to the chiller where it is extracted and blown into my living space. The light is of course for the girls. So far, so good- and not so revolutionary. But wait- it gets better...

 

[ttystikk]

So okay, I'm using the most expensive power source available to home consumers- but at least I'm getting two bites at the apple. And, it does save me from having to spend a grand or better each season burning natural gas in my furnace to heat the house. But, what if there was a way to use that gas instead of electricity?

A company in Houston, TX is building homes with a unique cogeneration plant integrated into the design; a heat pump, driven by a natural gas powered internal combustion engine, generator style. The motor spins both the compressor for the heat pump and a generator set, maintaining climate in the home while generating electricity to power it- and since the company is leasing the homeowner the cogeneration plant while selling them the house, the company is banking on selling that electricity- first to the consumer at a low rate and then to the utility- who sees this as a potential boon, as the power is generated in the same neighborhood it's used, instead of halfway across the state. This eliminates transmission losses and saves the utility money. The money earned thus pays for the equipment lease on the home cogeneration plant, leaving the customer with a unit they do not own and therefore don't need to maintain (the builder/power seller company handles it), yet getting electricity for cheap or free AND climate control to boot!

 

[budm]

Cool idea, but I'd imagine if the builder/power company retain ownership of the generator then they will want unrestricted access to it, as needed, and would probably require a signed agreement from the home owner giving them that....

If selling excess power to the grid, then I'd guess that power sales are regulated and inspectors would also become involved...

Just thinking out loud here.

 

[mastacheeser]

How about an offshore grow powered by ocean currents? I always wanted to be a pirate. This way I could be a weed pirate lol

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_current_power

There was talk of Google doing this a few weeks ago with data centers. United states law won't apply out there either(although I'm sure there's laws about growing weed on international waters)

 

[ttystikk]

Oh, but wait- there's much more-

The internal combustion engine in the above described electrical/heat pump cogeneration plant is not as efficient at generating electricity from fossil fuel as the utility is- but the heat generated makes up for it. Dual use again- and this time there's a little money in it for the homeowner.

What if... I was doing a little digging around on the Internet the other day, and ran across a company willing to sell natural gas powered fuel cell cogeneration equipment for roughly $5000/1kWh of power capacity. Fuel cells convert natural gas to electricity at 80% efficiency, some three times that of most internal combustion powered generators. Sounds expensive, until I mention this thing pays for itself in reduced overall energy bills after less than four years of continuous use (ymmv based on local rates, this is based on 10¢/kWh)- and running flat out 24/7 is how they like to be run best, according to the sellers. In places where local laws don't give homeowners much leverage to sell back power to their utilities, one would merely buy no more capacity than they would use themselves in the home to achieve this savings... and it still makes heat, so little or none of the electricity need be spent trying to heat the house.

So, for those homeowners who have power hungry hobbies that need conspicuous amounts of expensive electricity, this might represent a viable option that continues to pay dividends for years into the future.

Awesome! And no, this is not pie-in-the-sky potdreaming, no less a major consumer electronics company than Panasonic is building small versions of these devices and selling them in Japan, today. They're the size of an upright side by side refrigerator and currently output about 650-700 watts, plus some heat. These are the first, but they won't be the last...

 

[ttystikk]

How about an offshore grow powered by ocean currents? I always wanted to be a pirate. This way I could be a weed pirate lol

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_current_power

There was talk of Google doing this a few weeks ago with data centers. United states law won't apply out there either(although I'm sure there's laws about growing weed on international waters)

Ask me about my design for a grow op in a houseboat on a lake sometime... I'm waaay ahead of you, matey!

 

[ttystikk]

I'm the resident gear junkie and chiller tech, so my stories of efficient cooling are scattered all over the Farm already, no need to reprise that here. For a lot of reasons, a water chiller based heat pump system would be the perfect match for cooling fuel cells generating loads of power and carrying that heat to where it might be helpful- think home heating, hot water, hot tub, fishponds, geothermal fields like your driveway and sidewalks in winter, greenhouses, etc.

And then, there's allll that power... for far cheaper than you could legally get your mitts on it any other way...

Even a relatively small unit, say a 2Ton/2kWh combined fuel cell heat pump cogeneration plant would substantially slash a high power bill, while providing all the heat an average sized house could want- thus saving even more coin.

 

[ttystikk]

So wait a minute- how did I get from hiding high power consumption and getting multiple uses out of the same BTu to here?

This is much more fun than sleeping pills.

 

[ttystikk]

SOOOO... the vision that flashed through my head went something like this;

We use the gas to heat the house anyway... why not turn it into electricity and grow some plants along the way? Suddenly, this approach subsidizes an indoor garden in anyone's home, in which they can grow anything they want- because once the cost of equipment is amortized, the power for it is effectively free!

Somebody laughed at me recently for suggesting that my dream home would be a cross between a greenhouse and a bomb shelter, thinking the two were mutually exclusive. Homegrown tomatoes, lettuce and greens with grilled trout for lunch on the grass in the living room, anyone? Every scrap of which was grown on-site?!

...deep inside the basement during a tornado?! Talk about food security, lol

 

[ttystikk]

<---- Just in case this isn't Star Wars enough for peeps yet;

Oxygen and hydrocarbons are plentiful in space. NASA planners want to use them for propulsion. I've just connected the dots- using the fuel cell tech NASA themselves have been flying since the moon missions- to using the same inputs to house, heat, power and feed our descendants in space, in glorified shipping containers full of a closed loop organic food production, water purification, organic waste recycling and environmental control system our kids will live in.

@squiggly -Would these be big enough plans for you?

 

[ttystikk]

Yes, I know that natural gas isn't renewable. Yet this infrastructure is by definition hydrogen energy economy ready; just send hydrogen down the natural gas pipe and it's a done deal. Hydrogen can be extracted from water by electrolysis, thus infinitely renewable since any electrical source can make it, such as solar panels or wind turbines- and since it's no longer an instantly perishable commodity like electricity itself, it can be stored and fed into your fuel cell at your convenience. This would kick start the wholesale replacement of fossil fuel energy sources- as long as we can wean Big Oil off the taxpayer subsidy teat.

 

[ttystikk]

If you've gotten this far, smoke another bowl and pat yourself on the back... All these indoor growrooms we're building are pointing the way to a bright future, indeed!

 

[Texas Kid]

Nice flow maing...I love sleepless nights and early mornings

 

[Jboys3]

If you've gotten this far, smoke another bowl and pat yourself on the back... All these indoor growrooms we're building are pointing the way to a bright future, indeed!

Oh snap...Getting old is a bitch. Insomnia kicks in a 50+. Good luck!?!

I will add to your web none the less...

First you need to put up solar panels, then add a windmill, and finally you should put in a geo-thermal trench for heating and cooling. Thus you would not need any natural gas[except for your co2 burner which you could always raise some free range cattle for methane gas to burn].

Eureka! Plenty for you and plenty to sell back! :playful: You know I think highly of you Tty. Keep the thoughts flowing!

 

[ttystikk]

Oh snap...Getting old is a bitch. Insomnia kicks in a 50+. Good luck!?!

I will add to your web none the less...

First you need to put up solar panels, then add a windmill, and finally you should put in a geo-thermal trench for heating and cooling. Thus you would not need any natural gas[except for your co2 burner which you could always raise some free range cattle for methane gas to burn].

Eureka! Plenty for you and plenty to sell back! :playful: You know I think highly of you Tty. Keep the thoughts flowing!

Getting old sucks, but there are compensations. For one, everything I've spent my life doing, I've gotten better at. Even sex. For two, it does beat the alternative, most days...

Solar panels have a 20 year payback and wind power is never, at least where my property is situated. Fuel cells do it in just four years- and they do it while providing their full rated per output, 24/7. Not even wind turbines in Wyoming can do that!

The geothermal trench might as well be converted to a full on walipini greenhouse, which gets a lot more use out of those 'waste' BTus than just stickin' 'em back in the ground.

The fuel cell emits electricity, heat, water vapor AND CO², no bull!

I've been thinking about this multiple use concept for awhile now, I hope my counterpoint gets your creative juices going, too!

 

[ttystikk]

Okay, another sleepless night, another thought about fuel cells. Growing algae in transparent pipes is too easy- heck, I do it whether I like it out not! But what if a bunch of these pipes were outside, fed by water from fish to provide cheap nitrates... the pipes would end up fairly bursting with methane, which is a prime component of natural gas.

Pipe that gas to the fuel cell, and Bam!- electricity from solar powered algae! And since the fuel cell exhausts water and CO², those could in turn be recaptured and fed back to the algae, accelerating their output even more!

The fuel cells themselves currently cost about $5k per 1kWh of rated output. This would be by far the most expensive component of the solar system, as clear pipes and algae are both very inexpensive to obtain, install and operate- indeed much cheaper than photovoltaic cells.

When the sun doesn't shine, simply shift to natural gas from the utility and run the fuel cell on this- or even on stored excess gas produced by the algae themselves during the day. Hmmmmm... Did I just come up with a solar powered combined heat and electrical generation system that works OVERNIGHT?!

 

[ttystikk]

The fact that the exhaust of most fuel cells includes electricity, heat, water- often as vapor, and carbon dioxide makes them an ideal greenhouse companion. In my original post at the top, I mentioned that fuel cells are 80% efficient. They are, and better- but only after including the heat as well as the power the unit generates. So, budget fuel cells run around 40% conversion efficiency between natural gas and electricity and another similar amount in heat, which could easily be used to offset other energy expenditures around the home; home and water heating, hot tub, greenhouse, fish ponds, defrosting driveways, and more.

Higher performance fuel cells are available, running up to 60% efficient in BTu to watts, and another 20-25% as heat. I wasn't able to get pricing, but since the suggested application was for eco challenge racing cars, I'm guessing they're not cheap!

 

[Jboys3]

The fact that the exhaust of most fuel cells includes electricity, heat, water- often as vapor, and carbon dioxide makes them an ideal greenhouse companion. In my original post at the top, I mentioned that fuel cells are 80% efficient. They are, and better- but only after including the heat as well as the power the unit generates. So, budget fuel cells run around 40% conversion efficiency between natural gas and electricity and another similar amount in heat, which could easily be used to offset other energy expenditures around the home; home and water heating, hot tub, greenhouse, fish ponds, defrosting driveways, and more.

Higher performance fuel cells are available, running up to 60% efficient in BTu to watts, and another 20-25% as heat. I wasn't able to get pricing, but since the suggested application was for eco challenge racing cars, I'm guessing they're not cheap!

Oh man; you need to get some sleep. I can't handle all this scientific engineering mumbo jumbo. Can we switch back to chillers or nutes? Better yet; sativa or indica? Or how about mile high versus sea level growing? My sea level beats the crap out of your oxygen starved mile high club...

 

[ttystikk]

Hey, sometimes you just gotta go where the mind wanders...

 

[Jboys3]

Hey, sometimes you just gotta go where the mind wanders...

Trust me...I always like someone who thinks outside the box. Will I use their ideas? Sometimes...