Just thinking out loud about new tech and what the future might look like

[donmekka]

Awesome thread,I love where your mind is at . Happen to have a link on these fuel cells?

 

[ttystikk]

www. clearedgepower. .com

There are several sites, they're pretty coy about pricing but there are hints.

The 40-80 units- 40% conversion of BTu to Watts, 80% overall efficiency if the excess heat from the process is utilized- are right around $5k/kWh of generating power, if you're buying at least 5kW.

At .56 a Therm for natural gas (equal to 100k BTu), it will cost about $400 a month to run about 11,700W. The same amount of power purchased from the utility will run .10 a kW, or $1170- and I get all the heat I can stand for free in the bargain. Suddenly, heating greenhouses in the winter, running a warm water aquaponics tank outside, defrosting the new driveway, blasting the hot tub, and of course hot water and home heating are all just bonus! All that can easily amount to $400 and more in utilities all by itself. On the subject of greenhouses, some of the heat would come from the hydrogen reformer which is where the CO² comes from, thus never needing to run a burner (you already are) or wrangle tanks again! There's that multiple use for the same commodity efficiency thing working in your favor yet again.

If you ever feel like giving up the garden, selling the power back to the electric company is already a viable option in many places and looks set to become a nationwide program, backed/mandated by Federal Law to force electric utilities to pay for fuel cell cogenerated power due to efficiency and environmental attractiveness relative to more coal or nuclear.

The silver lining to fracking is that we're going to have plenty of natural gas for our lifetimes, so pricing will remain low. Electrical generation as an industry will be shifting towards less carbon intensive methods- and their old go-to source, nuclear, is suddenly radioactive in the aftermath of the Fukushima disaster and ongoing debacle.

Early adopters, line up!

 

[noone88]

If I didn't have to worry about the cops busting in for any rhyme or reason and making my life hell, I would set up a light-dep greenhouse on my property in SoCal. I think fully automated light dep greenhouses will be a great area for growth in the next few years.

 

[ttystikk]

If I didn't have to worry about the cops busting in for any rhyme or reason and making my life hell, I would set up a light-dep greenhouse on my property in SoCal. I think fully automated light dep greenhouses will be a great area for growth in the next few years.

I agree completely, and they can range from simple 'walipini' style, basically a root cellar glazed over, to highly sophisticated integrated systems that are just as automated and optimized as anything we see indoors. These still have the potential to benefit from a fuel cell system for cogenerated power for lights, equipment, heat and CO².

Of course many other more natural and naturally integrated systems like aquaponics can also benefit. In addition to a highly symbiotic arrangement between fish and plants that the nutrient cycle represents, there are also substantial climate control opportunities few have considered as yet. Instead of heating the tank all winter, run a heat exchanger and think of it as cooling an indoor garden! If the heat being discharged came from a fuel cell or the electricity it powered, that's just the same heat that one ordinarily gets just burning it- but this way there is the added benefit of electricity... with no other inputs. It isn't 'like' getting a free lunch, it 'IS' getting a free lunch- and you don't even have to give up the heat!

 

[donmekka]

So I am clear on this i can run 11000 watts 24/7 for 400$ a month ? And these systems run 5k/ kwh so for 11k watts its gonna be $55k?

 

[ttystikk]

So I am clear on this i can run 11000 watts 24/7 for 400$ a month ? And these systems run 5k/ kwh so for 11k watts its gonna be $55k?

That's the best of the research I've been able to come up with, yes. There's one more basic device required, it's called a hydrogen reformer- and its job is to split hydrogen from the rest of its hydrocarbon chain. It emits some heat, water vapor and CO² and delivers fuel cell ready hydrogen to your system. I haven't tracked one down, but I don't think they're that expensive, and of course we can always use the CO²!

One more thing to consider; the fuel cell we're discussing is 40% efficient at converting the BTu in natural gas to electricity, and another 40% or so is heat. It's the same heat as you'd have gotten if you had just burned the stuff in the first place, so use it the same way, only with style; heat your home, your hot water, your pool, your hot tub, your driveway, henhouse, greenhouse, fishtank, you name it! And that's the free bonus of having this cogeneration unit in your home to begin with!

To make this a little more clear; you're going to pay about $200 or so in gas bills all winter anyway, if the bill goes to $400 and your electric bill DISAPPEARS, you've really only spent an extra $200 a month, right? You're still getting the heat.

I don't care what you stick the plug into, this whole "fuel cell running a heat pump at home" thing pretty much kicks the usual way's ass. All you gotta do is refi your house for the refit. I ran the numbers and not including "present value of future dollars" calculations, payback comes at about 5 years.

 

[ttystikk]

Elsewhere on this site is discussed a greenhouse built down into the earth in order to shelter it and make it a viable place to grow crops for extended seasons- perhaps even year 'round. The basic idea is to dig a basement and cover it in the glazing/transparent material of your choice instead of a house.

A small fuel cell heat pump could help this operation immensely by providing constant power, heating in the winter, running swamp coolers in summer and providing a constant source of CO² all the while. It becomes a net energy positive environment, where it all but pays the occupant to live, grow and crop there.

Yes, why not live in such a space? Some walls and floors would need to be finished and living quarters and kitchen and bath spaces installed, but otherwise it could be a great big greenhouse and home that doesn't cost you a cent to run after all the bills are paid.

Kinda fun, if you ask me. Talk about a bright and cheerful place to live!

 

[donmekka]

After that depiction all I can think of is Bio Dome and how awesome would that be!

 

[ttystikk]

Someone recently asked me what my dream home will be like. I told them it will be a cross between a greenhouse and a bomb shelter- and it won't look like either one. THEY shook their head in disbelief... but they had no clue what kind of person I am. Few here would make that same mistake once they get to know me! :eek:

 

[Jboys3]

Someone recently asked me what my dream home will be like. I told them it will be a cross between a greenhouse and a bomb shelter- and it won't look like either one. THEY shook their head in disbelief... but they had no clue what kind of person I am. Few here would make that same mistake once they get to know me! :eek:

Uh oh...:facepalm: and I thought you lived on the mountain ridge west of Denver in the house that looks like a water tower [or mushroom].

 

[ttystikk]

Uh oh...:facepalm: and I thought you lived on the mountain ridge west of Denver in the house that looks like a water tower [or mushroom].

Not me, although that's a cool place. I don't want to be gawped at by half a million commuters every morning, so I tend to prefer something a little further off the beaten path than mere yards from the busiest highway in the state.

 

[larebowm]

ttystikk since were taliking about power..why doesnt solar panel companies use a fresnal lens to amplify sunlight to create more power.
a fresnal from a projection tv gets so hot u can burst crap into flames.I saw one set up where the fresnal heats a cast griddle for cooking and the pan has to be kept out of direct light or your dinner is on fire.

 

[ttystikk]

ttystikk since were taliking about power..why doesnt solar panel companies use a fresnal lens to amplify sunlight to create more power.
a fresnal from a projection tv gets so hot u can burst crap into flames.I saw one set up where the fresnal heats a cast griddle for cooking and the pan has to be kept out of direct light or your dinner is on fire.

Dude- it is ideas like yours that very often point the way to the future. Indeed, why NOT use that kind of focusing tech? I have a friend here in town who is working on solar powered Stirling heat engines. Such an ability to focus the Sun's heat onto its working surface would definitely have value there, and that's just one potential application off the top of my head.

 

[larebowm]

they you go fresnal lens cluster..free take apart discarded tv's.
sterling engine not so free but on sunny days shed pay for herself fast.

 

[neverbreak]

i like yer thinkin bro. mighta missed it, but if you're runnin the gas cogeneration plant 24/7...what happens when it's warm n ya don't require heatin, but still need electricity?

Oh snap...Getting old is a bitch. Insomnia kicks in a 50+. Good luck!?!

bro, don't talk to me about insonmia. i don't generally have it, but out of the the blue, for no clear reason i've barely been able to sleep the last several nights. i feel only half here. so if i'm not makin any sense...lol

neverbreak

 

[larebowm]

i like yer thinkin bro. mighta missed it, but if you're runnin the gas cogeneration plant 24/7...what happens when it's warm n ya don't require heatin, but still need electricity?



put it through a diverter valve ran by thermostat and use it to preheat water for water heater.

 

[ttystikk]

i like yer thinkin bro. mighta missed it, but if you're runnin the gas cogeneration plant 24/7...what happens when it's warm n ya don't require heatin, but still need electricity?



bro, don't talk to me about insonmia. i don't generally have it, but out of the the blue, for no clear reason i've barely been able to sleep the last several nights. i feel only half here. so if i'm not makin any sense...lol

neverbreak

I generally can sleep, it's just that sometimes I'm thinking too much. I feel for you- and I have a few strains I could recommend? :wacky:

Lots of things still need heat, even when the weather is warm. Home, hot water, hot tub are just three items that would still need heat even in hot weather.

If you have more heat that you can use (a common problem) then dump it, just like an AC unit does.

 

[larebowm]

there should be enough heat coming from the block to create steam if it would create a contant flow of steam that could be used to spin generator fins.

 

[neverbreak]

yeah, i think it was partially over thinkin, but also probably a combination of other things. too much caffeine can't have helped.

ah good points bro, not thinkin too clearly right now. keep up the brain stormin, ya have some great ideas in this thread.

neverbreak

 

[ttystikk]

there should be enough heat coming from the block to create steam if it would create a contant flow of steam that could be used to spin generator fins.

The bigger the temperature difference between cold and hot sides of an AC compressor, the less efficient it is. You're suggesting what amounts to a perpetual motion machine and it won't work, I'm afraid.