L.E.D. Argument Thread For Dummies:)

Dirtbag · Feb 12, 2021

Whoo man what a salty thread this is.

Reminds me of the time I was in Cabelas and saw a Stevens 350 pump shotgun on the rack and noticed hey, looks like an ithica 37!
Made in sun city machine factory, China, But exactly the same as an Ithica 37. Only real differences were the fact that they didnt design it, it was stolen technology, inferior craftsmanship and less than half the price of a real used ithica 37. Also a bit heavier due to the steel reciever where the ithica was aluminium. Oh.. Couldnt slam fire it like I can my Ithica either.. So the chinese actually engineered that "problem" out of the design.

Did i buy it? You bet I did, and it goes bang every damn time. One of my favourite shotguns actually.

My takeway from the analogy is that sometimes cheap and shoddy works if its what you can afford. And a TON of people simply cant afford to drop $1500+ to light up a 4x4 tent.

Are the SF lights inferior to HLG or Gavita? Lol of course, but will it grow weed? From what ive seen so far, yeah.. probably will. If you can afford the high end American made LED lights go for it, but a lot if not most homegrowers simply can't afford them.

Myself, Ill stick to the time tested HPS/MH combo.
HID FTW!

Mr.GreenthumbOG · Feb 12, 2021

Thats the best post yet! DB nailed it. ✌
That’s y you got the badge bro.

SaintsSamilia · Feb 12, 2021

Having never run hps whats the actual difference in the lights heat is it really that much more outta control or even the cost of running an 1000 watt one the 640 that im definitely upgrading from cost about 60 to 75 a month depending on the phase of life currently added a Mars ts1000 to the mix for extra boost in flowering. Have considered doing a risk led diy style or alibaba but have seen tons of hps 1000 watt setups outta Oklahoma on marketplace lately for 250 or less so mot sure what is the better risk tbh. I do love my led so far just upgrading or wanting too atleast

Dirtbag · Feb 12, 2021

SaintsSamilia said:
Having never run hps whats the actual difference in the lights heat is it really that much more outta control or even the cost of running an 1000 watt one the 640 that im definitely upgrading from cost about 60 to 75 a month depending on the phase of life currently added a Mars ts1000 to the mix for extra boost in flowering. Have considered doing a risk led diy style or alibaba but have seen tons of hps 1000 watt setups outta Oklahoma on marketplace lately for 250 or less so mot sure what is the better risk tbh. I do love my led so far just upgrading or wanting too atleast

HPS gets bloody hot. For example not long ago i accidentally unplugged my exhaust fan and killed my plants overnight, temps hit over 50 celcius.
You NEED to have adequate ventilation or AC to beat the heat from them.

Moshmen · Feb 12, 2021

1diesel1 said:
You’d be surprised

I have no dog in this fight - and I respect your skills ! Mod or not to me your a farmer with skills that cannot be denied.
Mimed just thinks like a good sales person, and much like you, usually not wrong may not politically correct but not wrong. Lol

also this was a great thread for everyone to vent in one location Mars,kingbrites,Meiji , sf , who’s next.
It does pain me to say - I don’t believe we will ever stop them

Moshmen · Feb 12, 2021

1diesel1 said:
Now that’s the attitude!
You tell em!!!

I’ve manufactured product in China and it’s not quite like that , at least not what I seen - not sayin it was pretty but I didn’t see children being used

Moshmen · Feb 12, 2021

1diesel1 said:
They would pay for themselves in 6 months of flower and much more after that.

My cheap ass 240 kingbrites paid for them selves after 1 personal grow- and they work for me but my next purchase will be hlg or gavita ima check that sale

only because as a business owner I like to keep my money in the local economy . I know most components are imports but if I buy USA at least it is assembled here, shipped here , delivered here so most dollars stay here imo

Moshmen · Feb 12, 2021

Mr.GreenthumbOG said:
Thats the best post yet! DB nailed it. ✌
That’s y you got the badge bro.

+1

Aqua Man · Feb 12, 2021

1diesel1 said:
What humidity you led guys run your tents in flower?

Run my temps 80ish and set the humidity for VPD. Sativa low end of VPD and indica high end. So usually 50-60% 50indica 60 sative ND 55 hybrid... this is all ish .

tobh · Feb 12, 2021

I gotta say, when I set up my 4x4, I started with two Growstar 600W. Halfway through veg, realized those weak lights would not do it, so purchased a set of Enfun 240w qb boards. They did ok, but still, that run only produced 8oz on the dot.

Now, I'm running two sets of the Enfun qb boards, and one of the Growstar's in the tent, and I'm pretty sure this round will cover all the costs I've sank into getting this setup put together. If anything, I could say last run paid for itself since I haven't stepped foot in a dispensary in months, but it wasn't back in black type yield either.

Would I spend the big money on a gavita or hlg? sure, if I was working at a bigger scale. Would I do that if I had room to produce beyond a couple tents? No, I don't feel the cost is worth it honestly. Not with 1000w Gavita DE's going for $100 on CL all day long locally.

tobh · Feb 12, 2021

Aqua Man said:
Run my temps 80ish and set the humidity for VPD. Sativa low end of VPD and indica high end. So usually 50-60% 50indica 60 sative ND 55 hybrid... this is all ish .

@1diesel1 I'm running a bit lower than ^^^ now, with lights on humidity has been sitting at ~50%, 84F ambient, 79F leaf temp. Lights out, 78F and 40% RH.

The only problem I'm really seeing with this environment is the damn LEDs are so strong, pretty sure they stunted the spear type growth of the colas, and are forcing some pretty fierce foxtails, plus bleaching.

Aqua Man · Feb 12, 2021

tobh said:
@1diesel1 I'm running a bit lower than ^^^ now, with lights on humidity has been sitting at ~50%, 84F ambient, 79F leaf temp. Lights out, 78F and 40% RH.

The only problem I'm really seeing with this environment is the damn LEDs are so strong, pretty sure they stunted the spear type growth of the colas, and are forcing some pretty fierce foxtails, plus bleaching.

Tried that free app?

tobh · Feb 12, 2021

Aqua Man said:
Tried that free app?

yessir, that's what I use to calculate the VPD religiously. VPD is on point, at least during lights on, thanks to you haha

Aqua Man · Feb 12, 2021

tobh said:
yessir, that's what I use to calculate the VPD religiously. VPD is on point, at least during lights on, thanks to you haha

The light meter one.

Lux Meter (Light Meter) - Apps on Google Play

Professional light intensity (lux) meter for your android device.

play.google.com

tobh · Feb 12, 2021

Aqua Man said:
The light meter one.

Lux Meter (Light Meter) - Apps on Google Play

Professional light intensity (lux) meter for your android device.

play.google.com

Oh, yeah. I use that one too. My issue is the variation in canopy height. I'm not willing to sacrifice the 35k lux at the lower buds so I have pretty colas up top. May be a poor trade-off, but the final numbers will tell in another four weeks or so.

Ganggreen · Feb 13, 2021

-For some of us, LED was the chance to be able to grow again (due enviroment /situation /geographic characteristics) .
-LED is trickier to grow thats true, is new so if you dont like to study and research (=waste money and time...) is not your option also the initial investment is not only expensiver in the light cost. Is like buying anything Apple. Is gonna ask you for extra cash .
-you MUST to use CO2 due light spectrum(and CO2 red frecuency) on veg ang flower
-works better with smartpots without direct contact on the floor (max transpiration )
-you gotta find wats to dry the pots. no sodium temp in room and leaves makes you finding ways the plant ask you for more food cause only this way grows as under sodium
-a reliable VPD chart not found yet due the lack of added temp on the leaves produced by sodium, LED spectrum characteristics...etc
-humity gotta be watched cause the LED construction specifics ( flower high point CO2 critical) and under LED the plants need the humity more than if you use sodium
-LED distance and power is the main game driving you nut but also once learned the availability to grow wider than companies recomended spectrum and even in residual LED light are benefits
-even with CO2 (shuting down in/exhaust) the temp control is easy so its to control smell/noise
-a controller is a must so is cash extra added to the LED high price purchase and, lets face it, our trolmaster need a new company/product to be overpass. (trolmaster defiency in signals turning on our lights without control in off time, gotta add contractors in CO2 times cause the lack of programable choices....etc)
-is easier to get rid of spider cause no temp
-2 600w LED are equivalent to 6 800w hdi
, LED expensiver but running them from 35% to 80% you save in electric bills (very expensive in some europe countries)
- even in 50% coco soil youll have to provide nutes , the right ones for the seed adapted to LED .
-the cal/mag control , regular measure is key here. (as much as light distance/power combination)
-buds are SMALLER even with CO2 but noticiable RICHER. Also the future generation of genetics adapted to LED may improve that lack. Is very easy to block mainly of the strains in veg state and get luminic stress with LEDs.

what can be add for a fair comparation?

Aqua Man · Feb 13, 2021

Ganggreen said:
-For some of us, LED was the chance to be able to grow again (due enviroment /situation /geographic characteristics) .
-LED is trickier to grow thats true, is new so if you dont like to study and research (=waste money and time...) is not your option also the initial investment is not only expensiver in the light cost. Is like buying anything Apple. Is gonna ask you for extra cash .
-you MUST to use CO2 due light spectrum(and CO2 red frecuency) on veg ang flower
-works better with smartpots without direct contact on the floor (max transpiration )
-you gotta find wats to dry the pots. no sodium temp in room and leaves makes you finding ways the plant ask you for more food cause only this way grows as under sodium
-a reliable VPD chart not found yet due the lack of added temp on the leaves produced by sodium, LED spectrum characteristics...etc
-humity gotta be watched cause the LED construction specifics ( flower high point CO2 critical) and under LED the plants need the humity more than if you use sodium
-LED distance and power is the main game driving you nut but also once learned the availability to grow wider than companies recomended spectrum and even in residual LED light are benefits
-even with CO2 (shuting down in/exhaust) the temp control is easy so its to control smell/noise
-a controller is a must so is cash extra added to the LED high price purchase and, lets face it, our trolmaster need a new company/product to be overpass. (trolmaster defiency in signals turning on our lights without control in off time, gotta add contractors in CO2 times cause the lack of programable choices....etc)
-is easier to get rid of spider cause no temp
-2 600w LED are equivalent to 6 800w hdi
, LED expensiver but running them from 35% to 80% you save in electric bills (very expensive in some europe countries)
- even in 50% coco soil youll have to provide nutes , the right ones for the seed adapted to LED .
-the cal/mag control , regular measure is key here. (as much as light distance/power combination)
-buds are SMALLER even with CO2 but noticiable RICHER. Also the future generation of genetics adapted to LED may improve that lack. Is very easy to block mainly of the strains in veg state and get luminic stress with LEDs.

what can be add for a fair comparation?

Pretty much light produced per watt is largely increased and lack of IR requires a warmer room to keep leaf temps optimal. More intensity benefits from increased co2 since light drives photosynthesis and co2 increases photosynthetic efficiency. Co2 is not required but will benefit any grow. The amount of benefit depends greatly on the light intensity and not spectrum.

Control light spread with height and intensity by controller or potentiometer.

As for VPD here ya go. But NOTE this is for guidelines under optimal conditions without co2 as co2 will need to be run with lower humidity to make up for the difference in transpiration. Sativa will like the more humid end and indicas the drier end but always read the plants.

VPD (vapor pressure deficit)

Ok i was gonna sit down and write out a whole article but i have been lazy so instead instead I'm going to copy paste because im lazy. This is not my work so let start. You may find this very long but its worth the read. Some may want to skip ahead. I have added here and there to what i feel is...

www.thcfarmer.com

As for how spectrum affects cannabis its more plant structure than growth rates. Intensity controls growth rates (photosynthetic rates) rather than type it out if your interested this is a good condensed article on it. But generally LED will have a higher ratio of blue that will keep plants squat and also increase demands for calcium., magnesium and potassium when compared to and HPS type spectrum that's a higher ratio of red to blue and green than most LEDs so not uncommon to see some deficiencies if feeding like you do under HPS when changing over.
Click below

An Update on Plant Photobiology and Implications for Cannabis Production

This review presents recent developments in plant photobiology and lighting systems for horticultural crops, as well as potential applications for cannabis (Cannabis sativa and C. indica) plant production. The legal and commercial production of the cannabis ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

You definitely need to make some changes to the environment when changing from HID to LED probably the most similar is CMH.

LED currently is about 40% more efficient than HPS give or take. I believe CMH is the most efficient then HPS then MH in terms of light produced per watt for HID

Not all LEDs are created equal and some are more efficient than others... currently most are pretty comparable with the exception of blurples but thats a bit more to do with losing out on the other spectrums.

When switching over most struggle with temps and trying to keep them higher as with HID the opposite is true in most cases.

MIMedGrower · Feb 13, 2021

Aqua Man said:
Pretty much light produced per watt is largely increased and lack of IR requires a warmer room to keep leaf temps optimal. More intensity benefits from increased co2 since light drives photosynthesis and co2 increases photosynthetic efficiency. Co2 is not required but will benefit any grow. The amount of venefot depends greatly on the light intensity and not spectrum.

Control light spread with height and intensity by controller or potentiometer.

As for VPD here ya go. But NOTE this is for guidelines under optimal conditions without co2 as co2 will need to be run with lower humidity to make up for the difference in transpiration. Sativa will like the more humid end and indicas the drier end but always read the plants.

VPD (vapor pressure deficit)

Ok i was gonna sit down and write out a whole article but i have been lazy so instead instead I'm going to copy paste because im lazy. This is not my work so let start. You may find this very long but its worth the read. Some may want to skip ahead. I have added here and there to what i feel is...

www.thcfarmer.com

As for how spectrum affects cannabis its more plant structure than growth rates. Intensity controls growth rates (photosynthetic rates) rather than type it out if your interested this is a good condensed article on it. But generally LED will have a higher ratio of blue that will keep plants squat and also increase demands for calcium., magnesium and potassium when compared to and HPS type spectrum that's a higher ratio of red to blue and green than most LEDs so not uncommon to see some deficiencies if feeding like you do under HPS when changing over.
Click below

An Update on Plant Photobiology and Implications for Cannabis Production

This review presents recent developments in plant photobiology and lighting systems for horticultural crops, as well as potential applications for cannabis (Cannabis sativa and C. indica) plant production. The legal and commercial production of the cannabis ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

You definitely need to make some changes to the environment when changing from HID to LED probably the most similar is CMH.

LED currently is about 40% more efficient than HPS give or take. I believe CMH is the most efficient then HPS then MH in terms of light produced per watt for HID

Not all LEDs are created equal and some are more efficient than others... currently most are pretty comparable with the exception of blurples but thats a bit more to do with losing out on the other spectrums.

When switching over most struggle with temps and trying to keep them higher as with HID the opposite is true in most cases.

seems @sshz has already proven this temp and humidity nonsense is well, nonsense. He out yields all of us with none of these parameters and a new high powered led at 100%. He grows old school just switched the light. And no additional co2 needed either in his traditionally vented room. Which i have always suspected. If he had my well water he wouldnt even need cal mag.

And on other sites the growers with the best results dont use vpd or extra heat either. Or complain of mag deficiencies.

Its why i argue that the plants are adaptable and vpd is not important at all. They have proven higher temperature grows faster but for quality out plants must be kept lower for quality. Its a balance it seems.

One grower on the other site has 15-20% rh in his colorado room. I wish i could grow his crop. These growers get 3 pounds per lamp.

@Ganggreen i dont believe any of your above post to be true. Sorry. They are just a more efficient grow light.

and the university of michigan proved that plants transfer photosynthesis to the most available spectrum years ago when they determined that intensity trumps spectrum and that spectrum is useful for shaping the growth of the plant but the most red light is needed for best growth and yield. Not balanced spectrum.

The info is all out there. Unfortunately the info on weed forums and in our industry is good and bad.

Aqua Man · Feb 13, 2021

MIMedGrower said:
seems @sshz has already proven this temp and humidity nonsense is well, nonsense. He out yields all of us with none of these parameters and a new high powered led at 100%. He grows old school just switched the light. And no additional co2 needed either in his traditionally vented room. Which i have always suspected. If he had my well water he wouldnt even need cal mag.

And on other sites the growers with the best results dont use vpd or extra heat either. Or complain of mag deficiencies.

Its why i argue that the plants are adaptable and vpd is not important at all. They have proven higher temperature grows faster but for quality out plants must be kept lower for quality. Its a balance it seems.

One grower on the other site has 15-20% rh in his colorado room. I wish i could grow his crop. These growers get 3 pounds per lamp.

@Ganggreen i dont believe any of your above post to be true. Sorry. They are just a more efficient grow light.

and the university of michigan proved that plants transfer photosynthesis to the most available spectrum years ago when they determined that intensity trumps spectrum and that spectrum is useful for shaping the growth of the plant but the most red light is needed for best growth and yield. Not balanced spectrum.

The info is all out there. Unfortunately the info on weed forums and in our industry is good and bad.

How so? His temps are absolutely ideal for LED and his humidity is not far off the optimal at all... add to that he is in a basement and likely ambient co2 of around 1000ppm ish and that puts it smack dab in what I was saying... may a few % off.

Just because his room suited LED with no added work does not mean that's the case for everyone.

Maybe go back and read his thread to see the conditions then run em through the VPD and with most being Indica dominant the low end... with leaf temp likely aboit 5f cooler than ambient. At 80f 40Rh it puts him exactly at the optimal low end which indicas like.

Like I said you can grow well outside the range bit that doesn't mean it can't be improved...

So not sure what you mean by proven not to be the case... VPD is nothing more than temp and humidity adjustment that control transpiration to an extent... are you seriously saying that it does not?

And if your not are your seriously saying that the flow of water through a plant has no effect on the plant?

Or is it the they gave it a name (VPD)

I can say from actual experience growing under LED and co2 that it makes a difference.... these are guides not hard rules. I know your always against change and challenge stuff and I like that about you but I remember not long ago the LED was not better than HPS and while I agree all lights have thier place depending on the grow room that they far far out perform HID under optimal conditions for them than HID under thier optimal conditions on watt to watt basis.

MIMedGrower · Feb 13, 2021

Aqua Man said:
How so? Hos tenls are absolutely ideal for LED and his humidity is not far off the optimal at all... add to that he is in a basement and likely ambient co2 of around 1000ppm ish and that puts it smack dab in what I was saying... may a few % off.

Just because his room suited LED with no added work does not mean that's the case for everyone.

Maybe go back and read his thread to see the conditions then run em through the VPD and with most being India dominant the low end... with leaf temp likely aboit 5f cooler than ambient. At 80f 40Rh it puts him exactly at the optimal low end which indocas like.

Like I said you can grow well outside the range bit that doesn't mean it can't be improved...

So not sure what you mean by proven not to be the case... VPD is nothing more than temp and humidity adjustment that control transpiration to an extent... are you seriously saying that it does not?

And if your ot are your seriously saying that the glow of water through a plant has no effect on the plant?

how is 80 degrees and 40% proper vpd? I have seen no one try to maintain those parameters. More like 80 and 70% is what everyone thinks they are trying for with a vpd chart.

And no vpd is not an agricultural standard at all. It is mostly from weed companies info. They latched on to a test somewhere like all the silly additive companies do.

Pretty sure he was at 77 degrees but not 100% and i bet the co2 in his basement only averages 600. Maybe spikes with company in the house. 1000 maintained would be quite high.

And i am still saying the best grows are all outside the parameters you are pushing.

i think you just think you are improving growth with vpd. Sorry.

and i noticed you did not dispute the cal mag stuff. Do you agree the ratio does not change. Well we already know it doesnt from dr. bruce bigby.

L.E.D. Argument Thread For Dummies:)

L.E.D. Argument Thread For Dummies:)

Dirtbag

Mr.GreenthumbOG

Grow for life🌱

SaintsSamilia

Dirtbag

Moshmen

Moshmen

Moshmen

Moshmen

Aqua Man

tobh

tobh

Aqua Man

tobh

Aqua Man

Lux Meter (Light Meter) - Apps on Google Play

tobh

Lux Meter (Light Meter) - Apps on Google Play

Ganggreen

Aqua Man

VPD (vapor pressure deficit)

An Update on Plant Photobiology and Implications for Cannabis Production

MIMedGrower

VPD (vapor pressure deficit)

An Update on Plant Photobiology and Implications for Cannabis Production

Aqua Man

MIMedGrower

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency