Lack of Vertical Integration Will Kill the Basement Grower

[muir]

one word (name?) WhisperWatt. from Multiquip

 

[ttystikk]

Fun website to read; " w.clearedgepower. com/ news"

Fuel cells are up to 80% efficient, and the waste heat can still be utilized, boosting the effective efficiency even further.

By 'emerging technology', I mean 'fiendishly expensive!' I will see if I can get a quote for a 5kW unit.

 

[Dopegeist]

'And on the Seventh Day, God gave us water instead of Hydrogen, just to fuck with us.'

 

[ttystikk]

'And on the Seventh Day, God gave us water instead of Hydrogen, just to fuck with us.'

Fortunately, the rest of the solar system is over 95% hydrogen. I feel better, don't you? LOL

I just want to see how all this shakes out, costwise. As fuel cells become less expensive, I could easily see a fuel cell/heat pump cogeneration and hvac system becoming a common sight in a modern 21st century home.

This whole energy efficiency thing need not be super duper high tech, either. Years, ago, I came up with a design for a simple air to air heat exchanger box with no moving parts. Incoming air from outdoor would exchange its heat with stale air headed out, and up to 80% of the heat (or 'cool', works both ways) otherwise lost would instead be retained in the home... thus, drastically reducing heating and cooling costs! This is totally compatible with all building codes, and the better insulated the house is, the bigger the difference this device would make on the utility bills.

'Passive' home standards are now basically built around devices like the one I described, heat pumps or wood stoves, sometimes (but not required) passive solar, at least in terms of shading excess sunlight coming in windows- and high insulation values. That's it. Nothing fancy. These 'Passive' certified homes use 90-95% less power per square foot to heat and cool than standard code built homes. Owners report that often, just their own body heat and heat from home electronics is enough to keep the house warm!

 

[Dopegeist]

Yeah, too bad people didn't embrace the NGNP with the ability to couple the electrolysis to the waste heat of the reactor. Oh well.
"
Nuclear-thermal[edit]

Some prototype Generation IV reactors operate at 850 to 1000 degrees Celsius, considerably hotter than existing commercial nuclear power plants. General Atomics predicts that hydrogen produced in a High Temperature Gas Cooled Reactor (HTGR) would cost $1.53/kg. In 2003, steam reforming of natural gas yielded hydrogen at $1.40/kg. At 2005 gas prices, hydrogen cost $2.70/kg.[citation needed] Hence, just within the United States, a savings of tens of billions of dollars per year is possible with a nuclear-powered supply. Much of this savings would translate into reduced oil and natural gas imports.
One side benefit of a nuclear reactor that produces both electricity and hydrogen is that it can shift production between the two. For instance, the plant might produce electricity during the day and hydrogen at night, matching its electrical generation profile to the daily variation in demand. If the hydrogen can be produced economically, this scheme would compete favorably with existing grid energy storage schemes. What is more, there is sufficient hydrogen demand in the United States that all daily peak generation could be handled by such plants.[14] However, Generation IV reactors are not expected until 2030 and it is uncertain if they can compete by then in safety and supply with the distributed generation concept.[original research?]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_splitting

 

[ttystikk]

Hey, you really impressed me, brother! I had no idea... I gotta say that my opinion about nuclear power is that it has its place- in outer space. We have no business using it on the Earth, the potential- nevermind the already realized- consequences are just too dire. Chernobyl and Fukushima, and so many other nuclear hotzones left over from medicine, research and of course the Cold War, already poison millions of acres of prime lands and seas- indefinitely, in many cases.

The end of the article mentioned distributed power generation. If fuel cells become affordable, this will be the new wave without a doubt due to the abundance of natural gas now hitting the market. I've only scratched the surface of what's out there and it's clear to me already that combining a fuel cell stack with a heat pump means efficient and affordable power on- get this- the model that none other than Thomas Edison himself envisioned at the dawn of the electrical age! He advocated for power stations in every neighborhood, supplying DC current. Fuel cells would merely convert to AC before sending the power to the rest of the house, office or shop!

One more, oft overlooked point about distributed power generation is that no one is required to provide 100% of their own power all the time, our even any time. Consumers could generate part of what they use and get the rest from the grid, or generate excess and sell it to their neighbors. In all these scenarios, power is still distributed much more efficiently than current practice. This represents even more savings.

 

[Texas Kid]

Now with non stop to Japan from DIA, our Japanese stoner friends can come over and smoke out in the Rockies...lol..Kimara boooiiii

 

[ttystikk]

Now with non stop to Japan from DIA, our Japanese stoner friends can come over and smoke out in the Rockies...lol..Kimara boooiiii

AWESOME! I wonder if I get get one to bring some high end sake. He brings his best, I bring mine...?

Another bonus is that these guys are used to Japanese prices for everything! They have the coin and they WILL pay top dollar for the best!

 

[Dopegeist]

Now with non stop to Japan from DIA, our Japanese stoner friends can come over and smoke out in the Rockies...lol..Kimara boooiiii

Kampai!

I can see it now, instead of importing it from Asia, they'll be importing it from US. Finally, drug money going the right way in this country.

 

[ttystikk]

Kampai!

I can see it now, instead of importing it from Asia, they'll be importing it from US. Finally, drug money going the right way in this country.

Who around here knows Japanese- we could do a little advertising about 'insider tours' of our lovely state, with emphasis given to various strains as much as tourist attractions. Sounds ELF to me; Easy, Lucrative, and Fun! Who knows? I just might score a hot Japanese stoner chick! I can dream, right? Weed is really good for that, lol

 

[Capulator]

Those where on 8k and 12k basement setups, $900-$1200 a month in rent, $400-$650 electric, $40-$60 in water...all cost included..again that's a basement grow, a real deal grow house with 35 or 40k burnin it comes down even more...not sure if many are doin those anymore out here, easier to get a warehouse

A HOUSE with 40k... ?

WTF Tex? Serously? Thats like an 800 amp service.

 

[Dopegeist]

40 * 4.5 = 180 Amps lighting...
Still, most houses I know of don't get service for more than 200A. That's 4/0 Al....
Guessing these may be 'off-grid' or on three phase? Or helped out with an extension cord from the neighbors?

 

[muir]

there is a dumb as kid in Nedtown right now who melted the service off the side of the house running 25kW plus the house's normal load. He then ran generators for 3 days while he had it "fixed" and proceeded to piss the entire town off. I have heard of several other grow "fires" in Giltucky.

 

[sixstring]

40 * 4.5 = 180 Amps lighting...
Still, most houses I know of don't get service for more than 200A. That's 4/0 Al....
Guessing these may be 'off-grid' or on three phase? Or helped out with an extension cord from the neighbors?

yeah but factor in fans,a/c ect would have to be well over 200amp right?

 

[ttystikk]

I would think that cogeneration would be the ultimate solution to this problem, but the up front costs are high.

The only price quote I could find for a sizable fuel cell system- 5kWh- was $26,555. I'm still trying to work out the return on investment to have it running constantly, replacing utility power. Maybe one could run a pretty good op with two?

While a heat pump is not a power source by itself, its impressive efficiency at moving hot and cold around makes it an attractive unit to consider anytime. Combining one with geothermal pipes to shed heat in summer and harvest it in winter pays big dividends in reduced power consumption costs, whether you're heating your house, cooling your grow operation- or better yet, both at once! Finally, a heat pump can be combined with many of the other cogeneration options to extend the usability of both.

The trouble with generators is fuel cost and inefficiency. They are cheaper up front, but they are much more costly than utility service, thus never achieving a positive return on investment at all.

The attractions of wind and solar are tempered by the need to store and retrieve power- but the utility will happily do it for you, at perfect 100% return, if you can get hooked up to the grid. This means you can offset as much electricity consumption as you have the space and wallet for.

More exotic possibilities include solar Stirling engines that drive generators, banks of mirrors focusing sunlight onto tubes of water to create steam, and more.

 

[PButter]

Yeah, really- What the fuck did you microwave that for?!?

 

[summitoker]

I would think to run that much juice in a house you would not have everything on at once....ie when one 15k room flips off, the other flips on. So sure 40k of lights in a house but only 20 runing at a time

 

[Texas Kid]

40k is about maxed out in a house with a 200amp service....I can run a MDX24(24k) and a(4k) veg room with right at 70amps and thats probably 30k burnin, 24k in flower another 4 or 5 spread out in veg with some fans and pumps and still live there....gotta remember grow houses are just that, its not a house that you live in comfortably and also grow, its a grow house...plants and gear in every room, ballast and timer stacks in the closets, one guy with a lazyboy recliner, small table, computer(optional), and a big screen on the wall, all crammed into the back corner of the kitchen....so other than the tv and computer your total power usage is on the grow, no hot tubs or easy livin, just growin.

70amps per 25k worth of lights is what I work from most of the time..my MLC24's have 70amp dedicated breakers on them...you could stack 2 of those in a panel and blast 48k with 60amps to spare for tv and internet on your main 200amp service

A/C is a 30 or 40 amp dedicated and I have seen them as low as a 20amp on an apartment 1ton setup

Must have a true 200amp service to the house, pole transformer, meter, feed lines, and 200amp main disconnect panel...most newer homes out here, there is now problem usually but older ones there always is so you got to pay attention...I have had the electric company come out and change my pole transformer from a 10 to a 50 can because I was heating their main 600v service wires between the feed and the transformer...they were trippin.

You may have to do the breaker dance for a minute and figure out a startup and cycle cycle sequence so you dont trip breakers but that just takes a little time settin timers where everything doesn't fire at one time, a couple minutes delay between components goes a long way in stretchin your power

Totally on grid and payin your bill...about $2000 a month more or less

 

[Bud Spleefman]

Yeah, I had that transformer change-out, too.... from a 10KW to a 50KW.... kept flipping some breaker on the transformer, they would have to come out each time and reset it. They (IREA) actually are cool as shit, I called and asked about getting a separate 200 amp service at my barn, they said they needed to run two more power poles between the transformer and the barn, and it would be expensive. They asked how many lights I was running, I said 18, they said, oh, we got guys doing 40 lights on 200 amps, are you sure you need an extra 200? I kinda laughed..... they are just so "matter of fact" about it.... just pay your bill, that's all they care about, and don't start any fires with any eff'ed up electrical work. Oh, my bill is 1300 in summer, 1500 in winter.

 

[Texas Kid]

They (MVEA) want almost $8000 for a new seperate 400amp service at my barn....they were super cool to me as well, we talked about amp loads, spoolin current, all kinds of cool shit, the one chick even told me she was from Cali and knew all about growin.... and then they called the cops on me for high power use which prompted a stop and chat by the local sheriff, then it went south quick..