Lack of Vertical Integration Will Kill the Basement Grower

[sky high]

Call 'em up, tyy,,,,,,Encana will gladly come and frack right next to your house....

 

[ttystikk]

Call 'em up, tyy,,,,,,Encana will gladly come and frack right next to your house....

This whole freakin' state is already holier than the Pope eating Swiss cheese from all the natural gas development! Prices for natural gas have dropped drastically in the last five years. I'm just trying to be a savvy consumer and get my power at the lowest available price. The natural gas is already piped into my home, so if the price of the equipment is right, why shouldn't I take advantage of it?

This even has green implications- if I'm generating my own power from marital gas (gotta love Swype!) then I can be sure it is NOT being produced with coal, petroleum (fuel oils, etc.) or nuclear power.

 

[Johnny Redthumb]

i pay 8 cents per kwh. rural larimer county near the big thompson has some of the cheapest power in the country, thanks to all the hydroelectric power plants in the area and water falling over 7,000 feet. its also nice to drink clean mountain water before it hits weld county and goes on to kansas and nebraska and gets contaminated with agricultural runoff and frack fluids

 

[muir]

My off peak rate when I was in Gilpin w/ United power was under .04/kWhr

 

[Dopegeist]

Unless you're making your own, a dedicated 'full-time' (not a standby) generator will run you 10k+ for anything over 10kw. If you can find an old off a junked motorhome, then maybe less. They run deisel, not sure what's required to switch it over. A mechanic may know. If you want to learn more, check out the survival forums or homesteader forums.
Otherwise you can look at ST genheads from China if you want the DIY route. Still looking a grand for the head. Then there is the whole thing about finding an engine already made to run gas or having to retool it.

On the subject of pie...
1

"In the past four years, cocaine use has decreased in the U.S. while increasing in Australia and stabilizing in Europe"

Don't think the RAND Corp took that into account in their study. I like pie.

 

[Dopegeist]

My off peak rate when I was in Gilpin w/ United power was under .04/kWhr

Was that posted or net after fees and such?
My Xcel was posted at around 9c, but then after fees and adjustments, came near 12c.

 

[muir]

It has been about two years ago but the off peak rate when you divided the total bill by hours use cam to .038/

My current Xcel bill runs around .09

 

[Bud Spleefman]

I did the math one time on a natural gas generator, it was over $6,000 a month to run 10 lights, versus like $600 a month for electricity...... not cost effective, at all. The only kind of generator even remotely feasible is a diesel one, and even that is more expensive than electric in Colorado.....

 

[ttystikk]

I did the math one time on a natural gas generator, it was over $6,000 a month to run 10 lights, versus like $600 a month for electricity...... not cost effective, at all. The only kind of generator even remotely feasible is a diesel one, and even that is more expensive than electric in Colorado.....

I was hoping someone would help me avoid running up a blind alley here. Maybe peeps can help me with some math though? One cubic foot of natural gas produces the same heat as 293 watts. Or, is that wrong?

My interest is in a natural gas, liquid cooled generator. Run the hot coolant through a heat pump... if I can't find what I want, I'll build the damn thing myself! LOL

 

[Dopegeist]

Like I said, you need 1) an engine chambered for natural gas (here is a standby http://www.powerlandonline.com/prod...500W-16hp.html?meta=BIZRATE&metacpg=PD3G8500E)
2) Your liquid cooled is your radiator. If you want to make that a heat exchanger rather than a radiator, no problem, most people just use a car radiator because it's easier, but in the end they are all radiators.
3) There are multiple types of gen heads for constant power generation. (How some small towns IMBNW get power). Price and dependability may vary.

Diesel engines produce a lot of power, operate at a low rpm and last forever (because of the low rpm).

Propane is widely used because it packs punch.

But since you are already hooked up to NG, it's a possibility, if you had to tank it, it would take up a lot of volume.

Also, sources of different bio-diesels are plenty should petrol ever reflect it's real cost. Also bio-diesels have shown to be lubricating and better for the engine than petrol diesels, however your fuel filter may clog as the biodiesels break up the buildups from the petrol in the tank. Also, shitty biodiesel won't have the contaminants filtered out, but anyone with half a brain, work ethic, and some DIY skillz can make good bd. Some farmers operate their old equipment, piston/chamber more slop, lower tolerances, on raw biod, and just swap out their fuel filters more often (keep an extra few in the tractor). But cleaning biod isn't really any harder than growing hydro. Just need to build out the right space and the right equipment.

Here is my generator folder.

http://www.openisbn.com/preview/0970220359/

And one thing you should notice is they are all going to be LOUD. So unless you are burying it in a concrete bunker, even then there would be vibrations, and muffle the exhausts/intakes, you will be saying "HEY! Look at me."

Maybe Bud knows how to break out the math, but going by btu isn't exactly accurate because it will depend on the engines efficiency. Which will be in relation to hp and rpm at what load. I haven't gotten into any of this math, I just been ballparking it off of published specs and gas consumption/hp of engine.
Lots of standbys are gasoline because they can get away with a smaller engine at the higher rpms to generate the magnetic field necessary to obtain X amps.

But you could easily be talking 10gal diesel/day = $40 versus $20/day power company...Know you drop a g or two on some biodiesel making equipment, and have enough fryers in your area??? Or take all your hydro waste water and fill up a few acres with algae :)

 

[Dopegeist]

You may have something here, Tystikk.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100796328?__...yahoo&doc=100796328|Start Your Engines: NatGa

 

[Dorje]

I was hoping someone would help me avoid running up a blind alley here. Maybe peeps can help me with some math though? One cubic foot of natural gas produces the same heat as 293 watts. Or, is that wrong?

That doesn't make any sense.

A watt is a measure of power in joules per second. A ft^3 of natural gas has a certain amount of energy in it, natural gas in the US is sold in Therms or 100 cubic feet. One Therm is equal to about 105.5 megajoules. So if you burn a therm in 1 second the total power released would be 105.5 megawatts, for a period of one second.

Turning fossil fuels into electricity isn't a free process, large power plants are about 33% efficient, I'd guess a NG generator you'd DIY might be about 25% efficient...

So if you know how many watts your generator is going to make, it's going to use approximately 4x that many joules per second of natural gas. multiply x60 to get to minutes, x60 again to get to hours, etc...

 

[Dopegeist]

That's why I just estimate based off specs from similar engines/gens.

Now with battery technology possibly on the precipice of a breakthrough, DIY solar could become a viable option.
http://www.extremetech.com/computin...mes-more-powerful-recharges-1000-times-faster

 

[ttystikk]

Like I said, you need 1) an engine chambered for natural gas (here is a standby http://www.powerlandonline.com/prod...500W-16hp.html?meta=BIZRATE&metacpg=PD3G8500E)
2) Your liquid cooled is your radiator. If you want to make that a heat exchanger rather than a radiator, no problem, most people just use a car radiator because it's easier, but in the end they are all radiators.
3) There are multiple types of gen heads for constant power generation. (How some small towns IMBNW get power). Price and dependability may vary.

Diesel engines produce a lot of power, operate at a low rpm and last forever (because of the low rpm).

Propane is widely used because it packs punch.

But since you are already hooked up to NG, it's a possibility, if you had to tank it, it would take up a lot of volume.

Also, sources of different bio-diesels are plenty should petrol ever reflect it's real cost. Also bio-diesels have shown to be lubricating and better for the engine than petrol diesels, however your fuel filter may clog as the biodiesels break up the buildups from the petrol in the tank. Also, shitty biodiesel won't have the contaminants filtered out, but anyone with half a brain, work ethic, and some DIY skillz can make good bd. Some farmers operate their old equipment, piston/chamber more slop, lower tolerances, on raw biod, and just swap out their fuel filters more often (keep an extra few in the tractor). But cleaning biod isn't really any harder than growing hydro. Just need to build out the right space and the right equipment.

Here is my generator folder.

http://www.openisbn.com/preview/0970220359/

And one thing you should notice is they are all going to be LOUD. So unless you are burying it in a concrete bunker, even then there would be vibrations, and muffle the exhausts/intakes, you will be saying "HEY! Look at me."

Maybe Bud knows how to break out the math, but going by btu isn't exactly accurate because it will depend on the engines efficiency. Which will be in relation to hp and rpm at what load. I haven't gotten into any of this math, I just been ballparking it off of published specs and gas consumption/hp of engine.
Lots of standbys are gasoline because they can get away with a smaller engine at the higher rpms to generate the magnetic field necessary to obtain X amps.

But you could easily be talking 10gal diesel/day = $40 versus $20/day power company...Know you drop a g or two on some biodiesel making equipment, and have enough fryers in your area??? Or take all your hydro waste water and fill up a few acres with algae :)

I was starting with a straight conversion, then was going to multiply by the efficiency of the engine, usually around 15%. Newer natural gas generators are pretty quiet by the specs on the mfr's website.

The point of chilling the engine by sending the hot coolant through a heat pump is that now I can utilize that waste heat to offset other power costs, like hearing my house, or my hot water, or even my hot tub. Yes, it's all heat and its all going to be moved out of the engine, but it can still do useful work! This approach can drastically improve the efficiency of fuel use, because you're taking advantage of the engine's waste heat as well as its output.

I hesitate to compare fuel costs between diesel, propane and natural gas, because I don't know which conversions are the relevant ones. Do I convert everything to therms or watts and then calculate? I am very sure that natural gas is the cheapest fuel per BTu in my local market, thanks to the fracking oil companies. I'm also betting that prices for natural gas will remain lower for the near and long term future; the natural result of a huge supply glut due to the oil companies' greed to drill it all NOW! Comeuppance, in other words- and I want to see if gas at 8.4 cents per cubic foot makes any kind of electrical cogeneration feasible.

I think biodiesel is an option worth exploring- and I'll be getting a diesel SUV someday and I'll look into it in more depth then- but for now I think natural gas is easier, more reliable because of its method of delivery and again, very affordable by comparison.

 

[ttystikk]

That doesn't make any sense.

A watt is a measure of power in joules per second. A ft^3 of natural gas has a certain amount of energy in it, natural gas in the US is sold in Therms or 100 cubic feet. One Therm is equal to about 105.5 megajoules. So if you burn a therm in 1 second the total power released would be 105.5 megawatts, for a period of one second.

Turning fossil fuels into electricity isn't a free process, large power plants are about 33% efficient, I'd guess a NG generator you'd DIY might be about 25% efficient...

So if you know how many watts your generator is going to make, it's going to use approximately 4x that many joules per second of natural gas. multiply x60 to get to minutes, x60 again to get to hours, etc...

The calculators assume watts per hour and do offer direct conversions. I'm still trying to square the generator mfr's. fuel consumption rates with the rest of this so I can get a handle on it.

 

[ttystikk]

That's why I just estimate based off specs from similar engines/gens.

Now with battery technology possibly on the precipice of a breakthrough, DIY solar could become a viable option.
http://www.extremetech.com/computin...mes-more-powerful-recharges-1000-times-faster

I understand the attractions of an off grid setup, but here in deepest suburbia, it makes more sense just to use the power company as the battery; infrastructure cost zero (it's already reflected in my bill), and the efficiency is 100%. No battery can match that.

 

[Mr Dank]

I've been into 5 shops in the past few weeks, mainly for shits and giggles (and to look at concentrates). Not to sound like a snob, but out of those 5 shops, I only asked to open a few jars of herb at one shop. The only jars that looked good had absolutely NO smell. The weed I used to score in Missouri in the late 90's was superior to 90% of what these storefronts are selling. Three of those shops have great reputations, and the others don't have a bad reputation either

Anybody who produces C+ grade herb or better shouldn't have ANY problem. Whether it's coming out of your basement, closet, Phototron (who remembers those lol?), or back yard :) How this thread got to 17 pages is beyond me lol. Produce good weed, and you'll be rewarded

 

[Dopegeist]

How this thread got to 17 pages is beyond me lol.

It was an evolution.
Good to hear the bar is being kept high.
They are running out of ways to keep the flood out. They are running out of ways to sell out the people to keep their Oligopoly.
Castles made of sand, Bitches!

@TiedShtick
Not arguing your ideas. Just your scope.
The gens that you are seeing as quiet, are so because of the HOUSING they are in to muffle the sound. Any ICE is going to make a lot of noise. Actually anything that moves, because vibrations cause sound waves. How you mitigate that, deep inside enemy lines :) , is the ? Lower energy would mean less 'bang', but still combustion.
The heat the engine puts off is already wasted, part of the inefficiency. Capturing that for other uses is fine, but doesn't increase fuel savings (reducing mechanical friction, operating at the engines optimal rpm, ect. will) ...Unless you are saying that it is offsetting electric heat...But your furnace probably runs ng.
You'll be fine just plugging the radiator in to whatever you want, can't imagine trying to fit an exchanger over an engine.

The point you are missing is that it is rather irrelevant on therms, watts, ect...Just gives an idea of tanking volumes, which is not important in your case.
It is simply how much fuel does X engine burn at Y rpm and Z load. Those specs partially be obtained from the engine manufacturer. The other part of the equation relies on the gen head. And how you couple the engine to the gen head will have an affect, too. In the end, your calculations will be helpful in seeing 'economies of scale' and in suburbia you still can't beat the power company (even in rural land). And the real number when running it will still be off from what the label reads.

Now as a backup source? Hells yeah. But you are still better off with a little gas engine for the few days you may go without the grid. Time, labor, fuel...It isn't your first choice.

Different ballgame between fulltime gens and backup gens. Usually find a place not because it is cheaper, but because that's all there is. Or because you have a bunch of time and money on your hands.

You could make a decent sized fulltime gen for cheap if you had an engine already, but they aren't cheap. You're looking 2g min to get a 10kw system going, that's assuming a deal on the engine. Gen head alone will be upwards of $800. The heavier they are, the more power they can generate, and thus the more metals in them, the more they cost.

But there is absolutely no way you can buy ng at retail from the power company, convert it to electricity and save money compared to buying it off them already converted from their megawatt ng generators, even with taxes on utilities and Xcel's gauranteed investor return of 15% (your not the only one who's been noticing the price drop, PCs are demolishing old facilities and poping up brand new ng stations now). ng stations really help them deal with Peak demands too, as they can be powered on and off very quickly (relatively).

Now you start getting into biodiesel and getting free starting stock, your price could get as low as $1 gal, but still $12/day to get about the same $12 day from the electric company...Shits going in the car.

 

[ttystikk]

All good info, thanks! This is what I was looking for, some discussion about pros and cons. This definitely helps me direct my studies.

 

[Texas Kid]

I used to work with a company that made diesel generator enclosures and engine enclosures for the Navy...huge badass fabrications the size of a house, they could get that shit down to 65-70db, was amassing