Let's Talk About the Calcium/Potassium See-Saw

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SeymourGreen

SeymourGreen

Check out THIS blog entry by Dr Daniel Fernandez regarding how nutrient manufacturers can misrepresent their formulations in their so called Guaranteed Analysis. That being said, don't trust the label info as it's intentionally skewed to protect their formulation(s). I journal my grow at the Bean Basement and sometimes 420, but I also made a "How To" video on YouTube for using Hydro Buddy that might be helpful to some, but generally, I've found it easier to just stay in my own lane and not be influenced by product labels with skewed info. I developed a PH Perfect regimen for my perpetual garden that yields me a plant every week, and the good thing about a setup like that is that I have plants in all stages of life at all times, so change I make along the way show results in about 2 weeks. I'll share my most current targets and which solutions I used to achieve them. PH perfection is gained by balancing the potassium silicate with the monoammonium phosphate (MAP), and starting from my RO source, these targets result in perfect PH stability at about 5.9-6.0.


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FYI, using the Late regimen on plants with yellow leaves will yellow EVERY leaf on the plant, so I choose whether to stay using the Mid or graduate to the Late on a plant by plant, feed by feed basis.

This is a really good thread so I logged in to contribute as well as learn.

Edit - I forgot to mention that I mix everything (except micros) at 1 gram for every 10ml of RO in the jug. Because I make half gallons, for me, that's 189.27 grams which I round up to 189.3 grams on my 0.0 scale. Micros, I target by themselves and tell Hydro Buddy that I'm using a 1000x more than what I am, than shove it all into the one jug, so once again for my half gallon jug, I tell HB I'm making 500 gallons. This is my micro mix made with chelated metals Iron DTPA, Manganese EDTA, Copper EDTA, Zinc EDTA, Boric Acid and Sodium Molybdate. 3.8 on the above chart means I'm dosing my feed stock (DTW) at
Excellent post. Very helpful and informative. I like your profiles. Might have to borrow from them a bit lol!
 
SeymourGreen

SeymourGreen

By the way, are you in dwc, coco, or something else? I’m in coco, and trying to get my Ca up without adding extra N, and my K down without throwing anything else off.
 
Skybound

Skybound

By the way, are you in dwc, coco, or something else? I’m in coco, and trying to get my Ca up without adding extra N, and my K down without throwing anything else off.

I'm currently in perlite hempys, but I've also used these numbers in croutons very successfully, and DIY Promix to a lesser degree. My approach is to build the entire nutrient regimens from the ground up, using all individualized salts. The Micro blend represents 6 elements, but everything else is made into it's own concentrate, so Epsom it's own, Calcium Nitrate it's own, Sulfate of Potash it's own etc. This affords me the luxury of total and complete control of my own formulation. So to try to answer your question about how you can up your Ca without raising your N, the simple answer is to use soluble gypsum, but that shit sucks because it must remain in powder form and can't be made into a liquid concentrate which guarantees every res change to be a pain in your ass. In the description of my video is a BOM for every salt I use and before shipping in the USA is less than $200 for damn near a lifetime supply of salts. I suggest you consider this approach as it is hands down the cheapest option and it gives you the highest level of control of every element and if you want to change any, or several elemental ppm, using Hydro Buddy (or any nutrient calculator), it's extremely easy, just punch in different targets into Hydro Buddy and it will tweak the dosage of each of your salts, so you can up your Ca as high as you want and your total N will stay put.

I'm not going to lie though, shipping salts aint cheap.

All 9.jpg


In no particular order, you see Pineapple Chunk, Purple Punch, SSOG and Garlic Sherbert. 9 plants for a 9 week cycle which is perfect for all hybrids. 9x9 room
 
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SeymourGreen

SeymourGreen

I’ve read a couple articles on gypsum recently. From what I gather, it does better as a soil additive. Shame you can’t get it in a soluble form. I never knew it couldn’t be made into a concentrate. I haven’t made the complete leap to raw salts, and my own concentrates yet. Still messing with Jacks, and Cal- nitrate, epsom, and sometimes maxi grow and maxi bloom, among a few other things to hit my profiles. Definitely want to go that route when I feel confident. Trying to get a better hang of some of the nute calculators out there. Tried downloading hydro buddy, but my laptop was saying it was harmful, so I deleted it. Been messing with angelfire, but it has it’s limitations. Garden is killing it by the way. 👍
 
Skybound

Skybound

Hydro Buddy is not harmful, it's just not white listed, but he has since made a phone app for IOS and Android that can be downloaded for free as well. I started in the salts with Jack's 321 and Green Gene videos, but I quickly learned that Jack's 321 aint that great either. Nothing compares to being able to dial in the feed to your own needs.
 
SeymourGreen

SeymourGreen

I agree with you on the Jacks. Actually, everything I’ve messed with seems to be lacking something. Past couple batches I mixed, I used protekt, calimagic, and the maxi series to hit my profiles. Nothings dead yet lol!
 
jguit

jguit

Supporter
I'm curious what problems you're having using Jack's 321? Any problems I've run into have been user error.
 
Skybound

Skybound

Jack's has too much B and not enough Ca, especially for Kush strains. Most of the micros are not well dialed in for cannabis and the total inability to change any of it is itself a weakness. By acquiring the same exact stuff that Jack's, or every other branded nutrient on the market today, is made of, and keeping it all separate, you cut out all of the middlemen and science that aims to please all crops instead of just cannabis. I have my every element right where I want it, I pay less than Jack's for it and I do not have to worry about my PH either as that's baked into my own recipe.
 
Dr.Green55

Dr.Green55

Jack's has too much B and not enough Ca, especially for Kush strains. Most of the micros are not well dialed in for cannabis and the total inability to change any of it is itself a weakness. By acquiring the same exact stuff that Jack's, or every other branded nutrient on the market today, is made of, and keeping it all separate, you cut out all of the middlemen and science that aims to please all crops instead of just cannabis. I have my every element right where I want it, I pay less than Jack's for it and I do not have to worry about my PH either as that's baked into my own recipe.
Just curious, how much B is in Jacks, and what were your issues. I did a lot of studying and research on B a while back and seen first hand university studies on it. I'd be very surprised if it has to much, thats why i'm curious as to the levels of B your seeing.
 
Skybound

Skybound

What are you using to determine the correct ratios of each element?

Here is an excerpt from Hydroponics; A Practical Guide for the soilless grower

Excess Symptoms
Because B accumulates in the leaf margins, an early symptom of excess B is
discoloration and eventual death of the leaf margins. Normally, discoloration
along the whole length of the leaf distinguishes B excess from Ca deficiency
(see page 46), where just the leaf tip and margin at the tip turn brown and
die. Boron toxicity can easily result from excess B in the nutrient solution or
from B found in natural waters. The B level in the plant should be closely
monitored by plant analysis and by care in making the nutrient solution and
evaluating the quality of water used.
Concentration in a Nutrient Solution
Hydroponic formulas usually call for a B concentration of about 0.3 mg/L
(ppm) in the nutrient solution; the borate (BO33-) anion and molecular boric
acid (H3BO3) are the forms found in solution and utilized by plants.

That, and Jack's B ppm being 0.396 when using 3 grams of Jack's, or 0.476 when using the recommended dose of 3.6 grams. This lead to cooked leaf tips of every Jack's crop I grew as well as all other journals I subbed to. I myself recently use 0.3ppm of B which is roughly 25% less than what the smallest dose of Jack's offers and that too gave me B tox symptoms and only recently lowered my own B to 0.2ppm and the cooked leaf tips symptom has since abated.

Just curious, how much B is in Jacks, and what were your issues. I did a lot of studying and research on B a while back and seen first hand university studies on it. I'd be very surprised if it has to much, thats why i'm curious as to the levels of B your seeing.

Do you know if there are any Cannabis studies done on this, or any other element that you are aware of? Daniel Fernandez tells me most universities won't study cannabis until after the US decriminalizes it on a federal level. My above reply, I also tried to address your question. I only have Jack's Guaranteed Analysis to measure how much B they have in their product per dose, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lab analysis resulted in MANY different assays. Below is a quote from Daniel Fernandez on the topic in a discussion on my journal over at the bean basement. I'd link to it, but I usually have problems with site mods when linking between competing forums, but I'm sure a quick search of the language will bring you right to it.

Solid blends usually have homogeneity issues as well, so to figure out what the composition of a solid fertilizer is, you need to analyze several samples (5 are usually necessary to get good certainty). Sadly, in the case of solid blends, a single analysis is not enough due to the fact that solids are not guaranteed to be homogeneously mixed, so you might get 0.05% Fe in one scoop, then 0.15% in another, then 0.1% in another. You cannot send an entire bag for analysis, so multiple sample analyses are required to draw conclusions.

If you want to reproduce some fertilizer, liquid blends are usually easier to reverse engineer because of their natural homogeneity (meaning you only need one sample).

And my issue with B aside, I still have the ability to change my feeds from res to res, balance the PH with the formulation and get it cheaper than continued use of 321. This thread aimed to discuss the swing between the K:Ca needs over time, and so far I'm finding my best results (all things considered) with a 1.4:1 ratio. Daniel tells me this mostly resembles Strawberries feed programs, yet all this time I thought we were trying to mimic tomatoes, lol.

The search is endless!
 
Dr.Green55

Dr.Green55

Here is an excerpt from Hydroponics; A Practical Guide for the soilless grower




That, and Jack's B ppm being 0.396 when using 3 grams of Jack's, or 0.476 when using the recommended dose of 3.6 grams. This lead to cooked leaf tips of every Jack's crop I grew as well as all other journals I subbed to. I myself recently use 0.3ppm of B which is roughly 25% less than what the smallest dose of Jack's offers and that too gave me B tox symptoms and only recently lowered my own B to 0.2ppm and the cooked leaf tips symptom has since abated.



Do you know if there are any Cannabis studies done on this, or any other element that you are aware of? Daniel Fernandez tells me most universities won't study cannabis until after the US decriminalizes it on a federal level. My above reply, I also tried to address your question. I only have Jack's Guaranteed Analysis to measure how much B they have in their product per dose, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lab analysis resulted in MANY different assays. Below is a quote from Daniel Fernandez on the topic in a discussion on my journal over at the bean basement. I'd link to it, but I usually have problems with site mods when linking between competing forums, but I'm sure a quick search of the language will bring you right to it.



And my issue with B aside, I still have the ability to change my feeds from res to res, balance the PH with the formulation and get it cheaper than continued use of 321. This thread aimed to discuss the swing between the K:Ca needs over time, and so far I'm finding my best results (all things considered) with a 1.4:1 ratio. Daniel tells me this mostly resembles Strawberries feed programs, yet all this time I thought we were trying to mimic tomatoes, lol.

The search is endless!

Its later here and i just seen this i'll briefly touch on this for now, if your running under 1ppm of boron you are far from over dosing on it, there are other ratio issues as well, my personal opinion at .2ppm your not far from being deficient, yes there are studies I know of, off the top of my head one out of the Carolina states did one I believe and their optimal range was like 8ppm I think, but even all the studies in the farming industry show higher PPM then what most people think. In my own studying and testing I ran Boron as high as 10ppm maybe a little more, with really very little side effects. All my testing was backed up with tissue sample and one thing I noted was the higher the boron contact , the higher the concentration of pretty much all other elements, I can run 5ppm of boron all day long for the fun of it and at flip supplement with borax for a one time feeding mixed with kelp because the alcohol in it makes it mobile.
 
Skybound

Skybound

Its later here and i just seen this i'll briefly touch on this for now, if your running under 1ppm of boron you are far from over dosing on it, there are other ratio issues as well, my personal opinion at .2ppm your not far from being deficient, yes there are studies I know of, off the top of my head one out of the Carolina states did one I believe and their optimal range was like 8ppm I think, but even all the studies in the farming industry show higher PPM then what most people think. In my own studying and testing I ran Boron as high as 10ppm maybe a little more, with really very little side effects. All my testing was backed up with tissue sample and one thing I noted was the higher the boron contact , the higher the concentration of pretty much all other elements, I can run 5ppm of boron all day long for the fun of it and at flip supplement with borax for a one time feeding mixed with kelp because the alcohol in it makes it mobile.

Please provide links or sources so I can figure out why my hydro book is so wildly incorrect. Also, please confirm that you're speaking about hydro and not soil.
 
Dr.Green55

Dr.Green55

Please provide links or sources so I can figure out why my hydro book is so wildly incorrect. Also, please confirm that you're speaking about hydro and not soil.
lol you make it sound like i'm on trial, google is your friend you'll find what you need, I'm speaking of all mediums including hydro yes. I ran true recirculating hydro for over 20 years and I have a very good understanding of how the elements / ion act , work and get absorbed in water. if your one of these guys that doesn't think weekly rez changes are necessary in hydro your lost before you started.
 
Skybound

Skybound

lol you make it sound like i'm on trial, google is your friend you'll find what you need, I'm speaking of all mediums including hydro yes. I ran true recirculating hydro for over 20 years and I have a very good understanding of how the elements / ion act , work and get absorbed in water. if your one of these guys that doesn't think weekly rez changes are necessary in hydro your lost before you started.

So essentially, I am to invest my time trying to prove your research right and my own wrong? How about I just keep relying on my own years of research and application and if someone along my journey makes conflicting claims, I continue to expect them to substantiate their own claims like I substantiated mine above in post #31?
 
Dr.Green55

Dr.Green55

Bro you got it all backwards, its like the old saying you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink it, I couldn't give a fuck if you drink it or not. and yes if your any type of grower and want to improve thats what you do, invest YOUR time on the research and YOU make a educated decision on what YOU think. or be lazy your call, I didn't think google was that much effort. I made a suggestion to you, not only backed from my research but from some i'm sure you'll find by searching. its up to you what you do with it and if your to lazy to look into it so be it I don't give a fuck, the same as i don't have to nor do I have anything to prove to anyone.
 
Skybound

Skybound

Someone's triggered LMFAO 🤣 FYI Einstein, had you provided link(s) or source(s), THAT would be leading a horse to water, but what you did was say "you think" there's water somewhere out there in the Carolinas. When someone on the internet asks you to prove the things that you are saying, the proper response is not to blow a gasket, the proper thing to do is provide links, quotes, anything to substantiate your claims.
 
Dr.Green55

Dr.Green55

Someone's triggered LMFAO 🤣 FYI Einstein, had you provided link(s) or source(s), THAT would be leading a horse to water, but what you did was say "you think" there's water somewhere out there in the Carolinas. When someone on the internet asks you to prove the things that you are saying, the proper response is not to blow a gasket, the proper thing to do is provide links, quotes, anything to substantiate your claims.
lol blow no gasket what so ever, I say it the way I mean it, and if your to lazy to look it up thats on you, I brought something to your attention do with it as you wish, I don't care to prove shit to anyone, some people you can say to the sky is blue all day long and their going to tell you your wrong, So do with the info as you wish, either tell me i'm wrong or do your own research. simple bro
 
Skybound

Skybound

lol blow no gasket what so ever, I say it the way I mean it, and if your to lazy to look it up thats on you, I brought something to your attention do with it as you wish, I don't care to prove shit to anyone, some people you can say to the sky is blue all day long and their going to tell you your wrong, So do with the info as you wish, either tell me i'm wrong or do your own research. simple bro

Everything you said about Boron is wrong. There, I lead you to water....... Go look it up and investigate if I'm wrong .....
 
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