My power organic mix

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Udyana Peace

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GanjaGardener

Here's something you might find interesting - Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss has a CeC of 100 whereas Coconut Coir comes in at 70.

That difference can be made up rather easily.

UP
 
GanjaGardener

GanjaGardener

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TVA Agriculture Promo- circa 1930's

TVA Results of Fertilizer
UP-
What are the mechanics of making a CeC adjustment specifically to coir? How would 1) perlite 2) rice hulls effect the calculation say @ 25% of total wet/expanded volume? I'm getting ready to rock.
 
U

Udyana Peace

133
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UP

What are the mechanics of making a CeC adjustment specifically to coir? How would 1) perlite 2) rice hulls effect the calculation say @ 25% of total wet/expanded volume? I'm getting ready to rock.

GanjaGardener

Good quality humus will negate most of the differences. Humic acids from other sources are also very helpful.

Like adding kelp meal (the Brown Kelp varieties especially) have measurable levels of humic acids but the cost of extraction is prohibitive (Dr. T.L. Senn, Dr. John Faust, et al). So besides all of the other reasons to use kelp you can add humic & fulvic acids to the list.

If you're inclined then applying a legitimate humic/fulvic acid product will accomplish a number of things with increased CeC being at the top of list (or at least my list).

It's all about the compost and/or earthworm castings that you're able to source.

When I ran some tests using organic coir I did more or less the following:

30% coir
20% thermal compost
15% earthworm castings
15% organic rice hulls
20% volcanic pumice

I added the usual minerals and seed meals and thought it worked as well as using an organic Canadian Sphagnum peat moss product available to me.

I could legitimately make the argument for and against both peat moss as well as coir. Unfortunately this discussion is tied to any number of legitimate issues outside of gardening - geo-political, environmental considerations, child slave labor to harvest coir - that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Tough call for some. Myself included.

UP
 
GanjaGardener

GanjaGardener

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We are all hypocrites to one degree or another. I speak out against chemical misuse and one of cannabis' old nemesis' DuPont and I use a mister made out of Lexan. Balancing ideology and pragmatism, beliefs and survival, needs and quality of life is a tightrope walk for each individual and decisions about when, how and which way to lean are ongoing. Unfortunately at this point in our social evolution the choices are often between the lesser of evils. Choose your poison, but choose wisely. The industrial devos have a head start, they're organized, they own the money and resources, they control the flow. Otherwise, I doubt if I'd be using a Lexan mister ATM.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Child slave labor..? Mmm... would have to know that and won't assume it, I personally have no quarrel with a child doing farm work, as long as they're fed and educated as well, fed being the first priority. I like that using something like coir gives people in primarily 3rd World nations good work that doesn't degrade their own environment to the degree that something like cyanide fishing does.

In any event, UP, do you ever incorporate native soils into these mixes? I ask because of "where I'm at" in my head on developing another piece of our property. I'm in Gold Country, which equals mineral wealth/resources, which, it seems to me, should also equal a relatively mineral-rich 'soil'. I use that term loosely because what I'm situated on is actually clay and rock. Orange-red clay, many different types of rock, but not much granite in our immediate area. Anyway, it seems to me that it's got to have some good stuff in it, and I'm thinking about setting up a screening operation and recovering some of that. The stuff just doesn't DRAIN, which is why we have an engineered septic system with a gigantic leach field.

Making a list, checking it twice, for all I think I need, but with limited local resources I'm hesitant to order something like volcanic pumice to be delivered, shipping would be crazy expensive. Same with shipping liquids. Perhaps making the 2hr+ drive up to PVFS would be most cost-effective. Then I could buy some fig trees, too.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Someone sent me a question in a rep regarding sourcing rice hulls. I'm in California, so it's pretty easy to find them at my local feed store sold as animal bedding. I know a friend in Mendo who says you can get RHs that have been treated so nothing sprouts, with the bedding hulls I use I definitely get sprouting.
 
GanjaGardener

GanjaGardener

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Where are the coconuts?
I found a few photos of what could be construed as forced child labor in coconut plantations, but not necessarily so. I also found some cut and dry evidence of a 10 acre forced labor factory/reserve hidden in the middle of a coconut palm plantation- 800 Burmese men, woman and children immigrants in a 10 acre - but from what my (non-exhaustive) search has turned up, the conditions @ the plantations and coir producing facilities don't hold a candle to the misery that you see in the photos posted above. So, Seamaiden, I will cautiously join you and will not make any assumptions until I learn more, although the implications are there.

Back 2 u on the hulls, but first I need to correct the brain belch I left behind in another post i made yesterday.
 
GanjaGardener

GanjaGardener

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I've been bouncing back and forth w/ the soil discussion between this and the bottled nutrient thread, but this one seemed more in need of getting back to the topic (that I helped veer off of) so I'll post here.

It's becoming clear to me that we are discussing at least two different growing cultures (possibly three) that, while sharing many of the same fundamentals, require different nutrient management/techniques.
eg
- the techniques and materials used in the re-mineralization of an outdoor plot will differ from what an indoor or outdoor grower will use in optimizing the mineral balance in his 3 gallon container, particularly when growing an aggressive annual w/ a 3-5 month lifespan.
- solid compost and tea compost based growing cultures will require different materials and ratios based upon the substrate's beginning base material and which technique the grower's methodology favors if s/he's doing a hybrid of the two.

I had a chipper and 2 compost bins @ my previous location but am not in a situation to go that route at present and have, by necessity, learned to compost in an aqueous, O2 rich substrate. I'm not saying that my method is the best, in fact, I don't think it is and am working on improvements, but, beginning w/ a 90%-95% perlite substrate, I've literally been growing soil in my containers w/ the solid residues from the teas and more recently w/ FPJ's as an addie.) The results have been equal to or have exceeded those w/ solid compost based soil, but to be fair, that isn't a valid comparison because I'm a better all around grower than I was then but the point is, there are different particulars and more than one path to the promised land.

On My WishList:
A list of the mined and gathered minerals and soiless materials that are most often used in organic agriculture- present reserves, rate of depletion, carbon footprint- energy used in extraction, processing, shipping, and labor force practices/make-up.

Rice Hulls- I've added a couple of bags of RH's to an order I'm putting in w/ our friend, PVFS, today and will give feedback downstream.
 
C

canolution

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SWEET bro i like your grow i am starting a log to i am gonna update it with videos i could sure value you input
 
M

mrbong73

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Canolution
I was curious why you posted the exact same thing in every thread. Trying to get your post count up?
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Ya think? Jeez. Get a little more creative (but hey, at least it's not the necroposting some people like).
 
G

globe_toker

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Does anyone think the fish bone meal will attract animals? I am starting to think it will...
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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In my limited opinion, considering how *I* use it, it's been so well-incorporated into the soil that it may smell, but no large animal is going to spend the time (which = energy) trying to find what's making the fish bone smell. So far so good, worst of my problems have been with bugs.

We're going out to Auburn to Peaceful Valley today! I'm SO EXCITED!!!
 
G

globe_toker

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I have a strong feeling the racoons and other nightlife will explore my soil. Will be substituting the fish bone meal for a nitrogen guano. The guano application rate is 10ml/Liter of soil but I will be adding 1 cup instead of the 1.5 cups as recommended. I feel this mix will be strong but trying not to over do it.
 
GanjaGardener

GanjaGardener

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My Old Mix
I've been using a base mix containing 90% #3 coarse perlite and 10% peat moss (Sunshine, fwiw.) The perlite was cooked for two days in a tea (more recently an FPJ) containing beneficials, high P bat guano, crab meal, humic acid and cold-pressed kelp w/ a solution pH of 5.8. Liquid is strained out from perlite, filtered and used later. The peat moss gets the same treatment w/ the addition of a mineral tea containing Sulfate of Potash and Oyster Shell Lime to get a balance of K and additional micros into the mix as well as to raise the pH. I usually let the mix settle for at least 3 das and give it a stir or two before taking a final pH reading and making adjustments as necessary. The finished product is a light, airy substrate w/ a balanced nute and bio-beneficial menu that gets transplants off to a good start. (My starter mix is similar, but uses 20% medium perlite that I merely cull out of the #3 coarse bag to simplify things.)

During the plant's lifetime the lion's share of it's nutrition comes from liquid compost teas. With this system, the plant is fed hydroponically at first, but by mid-term the tea residue has filled in the substrate and to look at the medium's properties, one would never know that what they're seeing in the containers had been 90% perlite a few weeks earlier.

Old Mix Advantages

1) light weight
2) highly absorbent- expands <-> gains weight w/ watering, very little runoff, virtually no tunneling or dry pockets
3) O2 friendly- one would have to work extra hard to compress and lock the O2 out of this medium.
4) responsive. w/o the buffering properties of a typical mix, it is easier to adjust for deficiencies and respond to the plant's changing needs during specific stages of development.

Disadvantages of Perlite Based Mediums
1) perlite is not a particularly environmental friendly mineral product
2) under some circumstances, perlite can present a security problem
3) dust. requires a mask when working w/ it in it's dry state but the major problem is the inevitable excess of dust that shows up in the air and floor of the grow rooms over time.
4) water use. Count on watering every day beginning a week after they've been flipped to flower.
5) high maintenance- laborious and time consuming. (see 2, 3 and 4)

There might be more to say or something I missed but that's a fairly accurate description of what I'm moving away from now that I just finished off the last of my perlite and all but the last cu ft of peat moss.

My Proposed New Container Mix

Base Materials:
Coco Coir - PV's (contract packaged) brand. They use it in their custom mixes. I trust it.
Rice Hulls- sustainable, eco friendly, aesthetically pleasing replacement for perlite. (PV)
Arctic Humus
Pumice
Soft Rock Phosphate
Glacial Rock Dust
Crab Shell Meal (Also mixed into hole prior to transplant)
Oyster Shell Lime

Drench Brew-
(for moistening, watering in and dispersal of soluble nutes/bios throughout medium.)
endos & bacilli
CP kelp
molasses
sulfate of potash

- mixed into a concentrated tea- brewed 2 days @ 80F and diluted w/ warm, ROd water before application.
- soluble endos in weak CP kelp solution applied to roots and mixed w/ crab shell meal to inoculate surface around transplant hole @ each of the 3 transplant phases.
- For 4" -> 1gal and 1 gal -> 3 gal, soluble, hydroluzed fish powder @ regular strength added to the drench to supply readily avail. N and create a good macro balance in the mix for vegetative growth phase.

Notes:
1) I purposely didn't set base material ratios as I will be bracketing them for a run or two to find the happiest mix for the plants. Beginning Coir : RH ratios w/ other ingredients remaining @ constant 20% (ie coir/RH : other materials = 8:2
- coir : RH : other 5 : 3 : 2; 4 : 4 : 2; 6 : 2 : 2

2) worm castings used in teas. have avoided wc's in mix due to tendency to "clog up" and stratify in my perlite based substrate. my opinion may change w/ new substrate.

3) bat guano has been my P work horse during flowering- particularly during mid- final. I am veering away from guano, due in large part to the info I've picked up from from various folks here at the organic boards, (you know who you are.) I'm not going to cut it completely out, however. I still haven't found a better nute for getting a sweet, strong nose to the buds so will cut back overall use and pull out for the last couple of P feedings.

4) used pumice extensively along w/ decomposed granite, pea gravel and a few other amendments in terracing and xeriscaping my old house- natives, cacti, euphorbias, succulents etc. This thread got it back on the radar, so why not?

Thanks to all of the contributors. My new mix would be quite different w/o having the solutions and advice that have been provided here.

This is still a work in progress. Constructive criticism is never a threat to me nor will it burst my bubble.
I may have overlooked something or could have likely made a change or two by the time you are reading this so... don't be bashful w/ the comments.

Peace
GG
 
G

globe_toker

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Updated mix per outdoor organic hole.....roughly $35 per plant
-will be mixing in holes soon! looking for a good mulch besides leaf mold... anyone have experience with cedar mulch?

(11.5 gallons total)

7 gallon Promix
1.5 gallon EWC
1.5 gallon Shrimp shell compost (without manure composition)
1.5 gallon cow manure

4 cups Glacial Rock Dust
1.5 cup Indonesian Bat Guano (king guano)
3/4 cup Kelp meal
2/3 cup alfalfa meal
2/3 cup rock phosphate
2/3 cup dolomite lime
1/2 cup composted hen manure pellets 4-4-2
1/4 cup k-mag (aka langbeinite or sul-po-mag)
600gm. Rare Earth (2 oz. per gallon)
 
GanjaGardener

GanjaGardener

848
63
That's a nice recipe. I'm interested in how you arrived at your splits.

Couple of questions--

- what are the N-P-K and Ca-Mg ratios, (or %'s) of the ferts in your mix. ie immediately avail, and total avail.
- what's the pH of your mix before adjusting the water? (if you adjust it.)
- is your native soil depleted?

Am I getting too empirical, here, folks? Reel me in if so. g_t, just grow a lot of nice plants w/ it. They'll love it. Not my style, but I'm sure it's knockout.

PS I haven't used cedar mulch w/ mj, but have used around ornamental grasses and such w/ great success. Keeps insects down and smells nice too. This is conjecture, but the red bounce light off of the mulch (when new) might have some subtle side benefits as well. You might be surprised how much opaque color can effect the quality/CT of light that gets reflected back at your plants, particularly outdoors.
 
G

globe_toker

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The Ca-Mg ratio is 3:1 in this mix.

N-P-K for nutrients is listed below:

glacial rock dust: minerals and calcium
kelp meal: 1-1-2 and trace minerals
alfalfa meal: 3-0-2 and trace minerals
rock phosphate: 0-3-0 immediate availability, listed 0-27-0 with calcium
k-mag: 0-0-22, 18% Mg, 22% S fast acting
bat guano: 13-1.5-3
dolo lime powder: Ca and Mg
hen manure: 4-4-2 with 6 or 7% calcium
rare earth: minerals, humates and silica

shrimp compost: 1.5-1-1 with calcium
cow manure: 0.5-0.5-0.5
ewc: 1-0-0 bacteria and calcium

I have yet to test the pH in the soil at this time. I would imagine it being a little on the hot side at first but hopefully that amount of dolomite lime will buffer it nicely.

When digging holes, I remove the soil and use a garden claw to loosen the soil at the bottom. That loose soil ends up being mixed into the new soil (that's what I was referring too, lol.) Especially with organics as you have to come back a couple times to add water and turn the soil over, the native soil ends up being mixed in but barely. The native soil is somewhat fertile, not depleted but its okay clay-loam. So I figure the total soil volume will be what I add + a gallon or two of native soil.

Nah GangjaGardener, you're alright. I can't wait to get started, everything is ready just waiting on the weather now. I hope the plants will love the mix!
 

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