no water or light the last 2 days before harvest?

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Drizzle

Drizzle

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I've heard of this but never done it myself. Was told even if the buds look super ready to get cut....like more then 60% of the hairs are orange.....still put those ones in darkness for 2 days?

Never heard of making sure I don't water the plants for 2 days before I harvest them. So I want the leaves to be droopy and the plant to look thirsty when I cut it down?
 
K

kolah

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A lot of growers do both, with hold water and "blindfold" the plants which is said to be highly beneficial. I am sure others will chime in on the specifics of it.

I don't do either. The only "stress" I put on my plants is when I top or FIM them and if I supercrop them by bending the stems down. I practice with a belief system that chooses NOT to add stress (torture) to my plants, especially at the most critical time of their lives when they are sacrificing their life to others by sharing their medicine. I think there is something to be said for a happy mature plant to age gracefully and reap her benefits while she is free of any undo stressors. To me it's much like not letting an old dying man have a drink. Or sticking a bag over the guys head just before he dies. Sounds goofy I know, but I like to keep my plants happy as possible and especially at the end of their lives. An analogy for my thinking is much like hunting for wild game. I do not want the animal to suffer as it dies. I want a clean kill that drops them dead in their tracks as this prevents the animal from releasing fight or flight hormones which are known to taint the meat...and often gives it a gamey taste. I do not want to have a wounded animal trying to evade me and flooding his muscle tissues with unpleasant chemicals. I also think you mess with the energy within whatever life force is present. And that life energy (call it Mojo if you will) gets transferred to others who eat the meat or smoke the herb. I even go as so far to be careful when I cook and prepare meals. If you are angry or upset that negative energy will be transferred to to food you cook and later passed on to others who ate it.

Why not experiment some plants to and note your results?
 
GR33NL3AF

GR33NL3AF

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I do this with 'purple' strains...have done up to 3 days in darkness with the A/C set to the lowest setting. I've definitely seen darker purple come from this....I'm going to try it with my sour diesel strain this round and see if it changes anything..
 
P

paulycali

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I've heard of this but never done it myself. Was told even if the buds look super ready to get cut....like more then 60% of the hairs are orange.....still put those ones in darkness for 2 days?

Never heard of making sure I don't water the plants for 2 days before I harvest them. So I want the leaves to be droopy and the plant to look thirsty when I cut it down?

Look beyond the hairs! What you wanna see is with a scope. You need to look at the trichomes itself and make sure they are milky and or amber in color. Hairs will tell you a little bit but you really have to get in depth and look at the plant under a scope. Do this first. You may not be ready to harvest quite yet. Never wanna rush it. If it looks done wait a week. Good luck :)
 
420Gator

420Gator

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I actually did an experiment complete with pics here awhile back, didnt see any difference. IMO even if it works it isnt gonna be that dramatic of a change in the last day or two
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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Trichomes are not the last word on maturity, IMO/IME. Purple trichomes, what do you do with those? They never become cloudy or amber, so then what? Anyone ever run a line that never ambered up, or took hella days to get cloudy? The pistils are part of the total picture, IMO.

In any event, on to the question. When growing indoors I can usually remember to cut off water. Never cut off light because it didn't make a bit of sense to me. But then someone on another forum posted this little tidbit and now I must give the concept more consideration.

Ok, the paper itself is a PDF, but if you Google the first bits I'm sure you'll get the whole paper itself. I'm quoting it here.

Journal: McGraw-Hill Yearbook of Science & Technology
Manuscript ID: YB13-0050
Manuscript Type: Yearbook Article
Date Submitted by the Author: 07-May-2012
Complete List of Authors: Graf, Alexander; ETH Zürich, Department of Plant Biotechnology
Keywords: starch, carbon availability, growth, circadian clock, starvation

Topic one: Plant physiology (571110)
Topic two: Biochemistry and molecular biology (570100)

Nighttime starch degradation, the circadian clock, and plant growth

The steadily rising demand for food and renewable resources has challenged plant breeders and biotechnologists to rapidly increase crop productivity. To realize this goal, a holistic knowledge is required of how plant metabolic pathways are controlled to allow optimal growth. Today, very little is known about the partitioning of photosynthetically assimilated carbon among growth, storage, and respiration. This article describes recent progress in understanding how the model plant Arabidopsis thaliana uses its carbon resources to ensure a continuous energy supply for growth during the night.

Diurnal starch turnover in Arabidopsis plants.

During the day, plants assimilate CO2 to produce sugars (photosynthates) in the process of photosynthesis. Plants use these sugars to fuel their metabolism and growth, producing the primary carbon source for almost all nonphotosynthetic organisms. However, not all photosynthates acquired during the day are used for immediate growth. Plants partition a fraction of the assimilated carbon into storage compounds in leaves to support respiration and continued growth during the night when photosynthesis is not possible.

In many plant species, the main carbon storage compound is starch. The synthesis of starch in leaves during the day and its degradation during the night have been studied intensively in the model plant A. thaliana. During a normal day, Arabidopsis plants store approximately 50% of the carbon assimilated by photosynthesis as starch granules in the cell plastids (chloroplasts) of leaves. During the night, starch is degraded with a near-linear rate such that the starch reserves are almost completely utilized by dawn (Fig. 1a).

This match between the length of time taken to degrade the starch reserves and the length of the night is vitally important for normal plant growth. If the night is artificially extended beyond the normal dawn, the growth rate of the plant drops abruptly. Mutant plants that cannot accumulate starch or that degrade it only very slowly have much lower growth rates than wild- type plants and show a severely reduced overall rate of growth. These reductions in growth rate are accompanied by large changes in gene expression indicating carbon starvation.

Considering the importance of a continuous carbon supply during the night for plant growth, it is not surprising that starch turnover is tightly controlled. Arabidopsis plants adjust the rates of starch synthesis and degradation to different environmental conditions (for example, temperature, light levels, and day length). The rate of starch synthesis is inversely related to day length: the shorter the day, the greater the proportion of assimilated carbon that is partitioned into starch. The rate of starch degradation is also adjusted such that a linear and almost complete degradation during the night is achieved for day lengths ranging from 18 h to as short as 4 h.

Remarkably, the rate of starch degradation in Arabidopsis plants can adjust immediately in response to an unexpected early or late onset of night. If plants grown in 12 h of light/12 h of darkness are subjected to darkness after only 8 h of light, the rate of starch degradation is much slower than on previous nights, but remains constant throughout the 16-h night. These observations imply that plants at dusk integrate information about the amount of starch present in leaves and the anticipated length of the night to set the rate of starch degradation. Recent investigations have revealed that the timing of starch degradation in Arabidopsis plants is linked to the circadian clock.

The circadian clock and starch degradation.

Almost all organisms possess an endogenous oscillating timer called the circadian clock. This timer keeps track of the estimated position of an organism in the 24-h light–dark cycle. The clock controls physiological processes that function at specific, appropriate times of day and supports the anticipation of dusk and dawn. In plants, the circadian clock affects a wide range of physiological and biochemical processes, including expansion growth, flowering time, stomatal aperture, leaf movement, and responses to drought stress and pathogen attack.

An important hallmark of the circadian clock is its free-running 24-h rhythm. Free running refers to the fact that, once entrained by light signals, the circadian clock maintains a 24- h rhythm in continuous light or continuous darkness, anticipating dusk and dawn according to previously encountered conditions. In fact, the property of being a 24-h timer has revealed the involvement of the circadian clock in the control of starch degradation. When plants are grown in light–dark cycles shorter or longer than 24 h, abnormal starch degradation patterns are observed during the night. In 28-h light–dark cycles (14 h of light, 14 h of darkness), starch is degraded extremely fast, so reserves are exhausted before dawn—specifically, at 10 h into the night rather than at the actual dawn after 14 h of night (Fig. 1b). Conversely, in 20-h light–dark cycles (10 h of light, 10 h of darkness), starch is degraded too slowly, resulting in the presence of substantial reserves at dawn. If the night is extended beyond dawn, starch is eventually depleted after approximately 14 h of darkness (Fig. 1c).

Measurements of clock-related gene transcription can be used to analyze the timing of the Arabidopsis clock. So-called morning-phased clock genes show a sharp expression peak at the anticipated dawn. Quantification of transcription level and starch content during the night has revealed that the anticipation of dawn by the circadian clock coincides with the exhaustion of starch reserves in all light–dark cycles (Fig. 1). These results indicate a link between starch degradation and the timing of the circadian clock in Arabidopsis, and they offer an explanation
for the abnormal starch degradation pattern in light–dark cycles that are longer or shorter than 24 h. Thus, starch degradation is programmed so that reserves would be exhausted 24 h after the previous dawn, regardless of the timing of the actual dawn experienced by the plant throughout its development.

Work on Arabidopsis mutant plants, in which the period of the clock is altered, confirmed these findings. The Arabidopsis cca1/lhy mutant lacks two transcription factors that control functioning of the clock. This loss does not eliminate clock function, but causes the clock to run fast. Analogous to wild-type plants in light–dark cycles longer than 24 h, cca1/lhy mutants fail to correctly anticipate dawn in a 24-h light–dark cycle (Fig. 1c). The expression peak of morning- regulated clock genes, indicating the anticipation of dawn, happens 4 h before the actual dawn.
At exactly this time point, cca1/lhy mutant plants exhaust their starch reserves. Hence, despite the abnormal behavior of the circadian clock in these mutants, the link between the clock and starch degradation remains intact.
And... apparently there is now a character limit to posts, so this has to be broken up into two posts.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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The rest of it.

Because mobilization of starch reserves is linked to the timing of the circadian clock, the normal starch degradation pattern (that is, linear and near-complete degradation of starch over the course of the night period) can only occur if the length of the light–dark cycle matches the clock period (Fig. 1). It might be expected that abnormal rates of starch degradation and hence suboptimal utilization of carbon reserves affect plant productivity. This is indeed the case. Wild- type plants grown in 28-h light–dark cycles (14 h of light, 14 h of darkness) show symptoms of carbon starvation during the night, and plant growth is reduced. Providing sugar in the growth medium prevents carbon starvation during the night and restores normal plant growth. Carbon starvation in 28-h light–dark cycles can also be prevented by genetic modification of plants. Arabidopsis starch-excess mutants have defects in starch-related enzymes and show reduced rates of starch degradation. As a consequence, these mutants do not exhaust their starch reserves during the night in either 24-h or 28-h light–dark cycles. Unlike wild-type plants, starch-excess mutants show no symptoms of carbon starvation and no reduction in growth in 28-h light–dark cycles compared to 24-h light–dark cycles. Taken together, these results reveal that mistiming of starch degradation and the resulting carbon starvation during the night have negative effects on plant growth.

The current knowledge of the relationship between circadian timing, starch degradation, and growth can be summarized in a basic model (Fig. 2). According to the model, the circadian clock is entrained by light–dark cycles. A functional circadian clock allows the plant to anticipate the length of night, and starch degradation as a clock output is regulated accordingly. The correct timing of starch degradation ensures a continuous supply of carbon from starch throughout the night, thereby maximizing potential productivity.

Raising questions for the future.

How the circadian clock is linked to starch degradation remains to be established. It is unlikely that control of starch degradation happens on a transcriptional level. Although transcripts for many of the enzymes of starch degradation in Arabidopsis show strong diurnal and circadian patterns of abundance, most of these enzymes show little or no change in protein abundance during the light–dark cycle. Thus, at least on a diurnal basis, control of starch degradation probably occurs by posttranslational mechanisms. Regulatory mechanisms such as redox activation, allosteric regulation by metabolites, reversible phosphorylation, and protein– protein interactions have been shown to influence the activity of several starch-related enzymes.

However, the significance of these mechanisms for control of flux through starch degradation in vivo remains to be discovered. Elucidation of the signaling pathway that links the clock, located in the nucleus, to the posttranslational control of enzymes in the cell plastids presents an interesting challenge for the future.

In addition, it is still unknown which regulatory mechanisms are used to balance carbon availability and plant growth. When plants are transferred to an unexpected early night, the rate of starch degradation is lower than during the previous night. Thereby, plants ensure a continuous carbon supply from starch throughout the night, despite the lower starch amount at dusk and a longer night. However, because of the lower rate of starch degradation, the carbon availability during the night is reduced, and plant growth needs to be adjusted accordingly. Indeed, measurements of root growth of Arabidopsis seedlings grown in 12-h light/12-h dark cycles and shifted to an early night after only 8 h of light show that root growth is adjusted immediately. After the transfer to an early night, root growth slows down and continues at a lower level relative to the previous night. How the root perceives signals of lower carbon availability in leaves and how signals are integrated to regulate growth are not known.

Progress made in understanding the timing of starch degradation during the night raises another important question: How do plants measure their starch reserves? To achieve a linear and near-complete utilization of starch during the night, anticipation of the length of the night is not sufficient by itself. Plants also need to sense the amount of starch present in the cell plastids at dusk. The correct rate of starch degradation must be set by a molecular division of the starch amount according to time. How the plant cell achieves this calculation on the molecular level remains elusive.

In summary, consideration of how plants survive the night raises many new and complex questions about the relationship of photosynthesis, carbon storage and utilization, and plant productivity. The research on Arabidopsis starch metabolism thus illustrates the importance of considering these questions in attempting to increase crop productivity.

For background information see AGRICULTURAL SCIENCE (PLANT); BIOTECHNOLOGY; CARBON; CIRCADIAN CLOCK (PLANTS); PHOTOPERIODISM; PHOTOSYNTHESIS; PLANT DEVELOPMENT; PLANT GROWTH; PLANT METABOLISM; PLANT PHYSIOLOGY; STARCH in the McGraw-Hill Encyclopedia of Science & Technology.

Alexander Graf

Bibliography.
A. Graf et al., Circadian control of carbohydrate availability for growth in Arabidopsis plants at night, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA, 107:9458–9463, 2010;

S. L. Harmer, The circadian system in higher plants, Annu. Rev. Plant Biol., 60:357–377, 2009;

M. Stitt and S. C. Zeeman, Starch turnover: Pathways, regulation and role in growth, Curr. Opin. Plant Biol., in press, 2012.

...................................

Key words:
starch; carbon availability; growth; circadian clock; starvation

Jesus Jumping Christ on a Fuckstick.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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Ok... help me out here, then. What's the difference between age and maturity (and don't say it's my shoe size!) in this context?
 
purpleberry

purpleberry

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If you cut when the hairs are %60 red, You loose alot of weight. I just go by the hairs, When there %100 red they are done, They may go a few days either way if im waiting for the pots to dry out.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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The rest of it.

Jesus Jumping Christ on a Fuckstick.

Well- that's not exactly the part I was commenting on, but it will do! What did you get out of that scientific paper? All I got was that plants try hard- with unknown mechanisms- to match the rate of carbon depletion to the expected length of darkness. What I don't see is any direct connection between this behavior and responses to underwatering and/or being left in the dark?
 
420Gator

420Gator

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I agree with seamaiden, if all u go by is trich development you may be waiting too long
 
420Gator

420Gator

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Well- that's not exactly the part I was commenting on, but it will do! What did you get out of that scientific paper? All I got was that plants try hard- with unknown mechanisms- to match the rate of carbon depletion to the expected length of darkness. What I don't see is any direct connection between this behavior and responses to underwatering and/or being left in the dark?

I think not watering is more to do with faster drying time, not so much for trich development
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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Ok... help me out here, then. What's the difference between age and maturity (and don't say it's my shoe size!) in this context?

I'm not going to speak for anyone else here, but to me the difference is whether they can stay out of jail on Friday night!

Seriously, the overall age of the plant is less relevant; again, IME, older plants don't tend to have as much overall vigor as younger ones do for any given size plant.

There are several ways to look at 'maturity' however; the length of time the strain has been in flowering conditions is one good yardstick- but then this will have to be balanced against conditions, light leakage, strain characteristics, etc. I have noticed that plants in a high performance environment (temps in the 80s, high humidity, high CO2, high light levels) tend to mature a bit faster than those growing under less intense conditions.

Physical condition is another sign of plant maturity- and here, I'm really not the one to ask, as I have a bad habit of pulling my runs too early. Partly it's due to impatience, partly because I like a speedier high- and partly poverty and paranoia, lol.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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I think not watering is more to do with faster drying time, not so much for trich development

I've done this; not water for the last couple days- and I like the results I get. I do NOT put the plant in the dark for this period. I used to put the plant in the dark for 24-36 hours between veg. and bloom but I didn't see any differences. I was hoping for shorter bloom times but I don't think that happened, either.

To reiterate, I have, do and will continue to let plants fully dry out to the point of wilt just before harvest. Not only do I think it sweats out just a little more resin, it also makes the substrate 90% easier to deal with afterwards and reduces the chances of pathogens getting a foothold in the substrate between runs. I do reuse my substrate which in my case is 50% hydroton and 50% coco.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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I think the point of putting them in dark is to ensure that hormonal 'switch' (vegetative to regenerative phases) is well flipped, and thus a quicker onset of flowering. Not a shorter flowering period.
Well- that's not exactly the part I was commenting on, but it will do! What did you get out of that scientific paper? All I got was that plants try hard- with unknown mechanisms- to match the rate of carbon depletion to the expected length of darkness. What I don't see is any direct connection between this behavior and responses to underwatering and/or being left in the dark?
What I'm getting out of it is that, considering that part of our goal may be degradation of starches, we can use this activity of the plant and, if possible, adjust the photoperiod and harvest at the point of lowest starch (carbohydrate) levels within the plant.

In other words, it seems to lend some credence to the idea of keeping a plant in the dark prior to harvest for achieving a better product.
I'm not going to speak for anyone else here, but to me the difference is whether they can stay out of jail on Friday night!
You made me guffaw.
 
midwestdensies

midwestdensies

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I've always done the dark period at the end of harvest after experimenting on several crops, testing half the room. Then after seeing and tasting the results it was just a tad better even in blind taste test lol. Never knew the real reason but have been practicing this for years. Thanks for all the interesting info as well Seamaiden. MWD
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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I think the point of putting them in dark is to ensure that hormonal 'switch' (vegetative to regenerative phases) is well flipped, and thus a quicker onset of flowering. Not a shorter flowering period.

What I'm getting out of it is that, considering that part of our goal may be degradation of starches, we can use this activity of the plant and, if possible, adjust the photoperiod and harvest at the point of lowest starch (carbohydrate) levels within the plant.

In other words, it seems to lend some credence to the idea of keeping a plant in the dark prior to harvest for achieving a better product.

You made me guffaw.

So if completely depleting the plant of carbohydrates just before harvest is a good thing, then why do all these flushing solutions contain carbs? And therefore, should I stop using them during flush or alter my technique?

Glad I made you laugh, chuckle, snort, cackle, guffaw, chortle or just plain hoot out loud!
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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I think the reason the flushing agents contain carbohydrates is because they chemically bond to the salts in the media, thus pulling them out. I'm not positive, but that's what I think.

Here's the other thing, and this year I'll get to compare because this year I didn't do a single feeding or tea on my girls, let alone give any sources of carbohydrates like molasses or malted barley extract. I still have some product from last year, and while they're different strains and ages, obviously, I'm hoping I'll be able to tell whether or not there's a difference between using additional carbohydrates and not, and if there is a difference, what the difference is, is it desirable or what?
 
datDANK

datDANK

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flush flush... then 3 days of dark before chop. ideally you want that plant to be thirsty and slightly start to droop before you chop
 
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