Non Hydro Trees.

[true grit]

For fan leaves:

DS is a fan of defoliation of large fans.

JK says leave them all on until the last couple weeks, then slowly pluck them all off.

DD was removing leaves IIRC

IIRC Waayne defoliates gently.

I try to leave as much on as I can, but I remove a few every day. I try not to remove more than just a few to avoid shocking the plant, but I figure a couple here and there won't hurt. Flowers in the shade definitely do not develop the same structure as flowers in direct light.


Maybe those I mentioned will chime in.. I have always wondered about the best way and reasons behind it. I believe Outwest had some excellent points on defoliation both pros and cons regarding photosynthesis in older leaves compared to new ones.

Jack was talking about this recently- in his overhead beds he removes all leaves but the top several fan leaves on each bud. Said after side by side after side by side (in overhead at least) removing the but the top ones helps yield everytime. I do pretty much the same. Now how vert changes that due to side lighting i don't know.

 

[Capulator]

tough crowd :(View attachment 313520View attachment 313521

are you guys weighing them wet,cause if so im in right??? lol
View attachment 313522

Not a tough crowd homie. Nothing but love here.

A tree though is one big ass plant surrounded by a shit ton of lighting. Like 5-6' OC. Lots of vertical lighting with some horizontal lighting as well if possible. IMHO a tree must have vert bulbs to develop lowers.

If it were a horizontal grown tree.. I would say that each plant has to have a 1k over it minimum.

This is my perception of it anyway.

Trees are for people who don't mind an epic powerbill in exchange for a few very well producing plants. I woudl go so far as to say you haven't grown a "real" tree, unless your plant hits the 2#mark.

Here is an example courtesy GG's thread:

taken from https://www.thcfarmer.com/community...a-3lb-wifi-getto-s-new-6-planter.47515/page-8



Or Quantum9:

Taken from this thread: https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/here-we-go-again.52754/page-9#post-1009374


That't pretty much the idea of a tree to me.

 

[sixstring]

Thats the complete opposite of non hydro trees, both those shots look like uc systems or at least on pumps.and now your making up new rules as to what a tree is , 2# lol.i was just posting a pic of what I considered to be a tree cause you guys were off topic trying to define perpetual; ) I dont run any vert lighting and use no 1000 watters, but im pulling between 16 and 24 oz per week choppin 2 plants, pertpetually.if I stuck to one or 2 strains I have no doubt I could be pullin 1 pounders from this setup, dirt and hand watering 1 gallon at a time. Ill be sure and weight the larf for ya on the next one, she's a doozy.
And I did read this whole thread, thought it would be ok to pozt up my tiny shrubz after scoping the first pic in this thread.you tree boyz are a serious bunch aye?

 

[Capulator]

Thats the complete opposite of non hydro trees, both those shots look like uc systems or at least on pumps.and now your making up new rules as to what a tree is , 2# lol.i was just posting a pic of what I considered to be a tree cause you guys were off topic trying to define perpetual; ) I dont run any vert lighting and use no 1000 watters, but im pulling between 16 and 24 oz per week choppin 2 plants, pertpetually.if I stuck to one or 2 strains I have no doubt I could be pullin 1 pounders from this setup, dirt and hand watering 1 gallon at a time. Ill be sure and weight the larf for ya on the next one, she's a doozy.
And I did read this whole thread, thought it would be ok to pozt up my tiny shrubz after scoping the first pic in this thread.you tree boyz are a serious bunch aye?

What I am showing are trees. Switch the UC buckets to soil and you will get what TG is going for.

You should not be offended. I'm not attacking your grow. I think your plants look awesome and your yields are great.

 

[sixstring]

I want you to acknowledge they are trees damn it!!!!!

Im just messin man, you'll find I have a goofy sense of humor in time, peace

 

[Capulator]

I want you to acknowledge they are trees damn it!!!!!

Im just messin man, you'll find I have a goofy sense of humor in time, peace

And I have skin like a crocodiles back- tough.

 

[Jalisco Kid]

ms walker? o_O can you tell me more? :)

I found these looking for that Ms. walker pic that I had posted in the photo sec. I do not remember posting them. That is why I hate showing pics.www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/bp-bubba-x-paki.7080/. I made this strain about 8 years ago. I cried just about when I lent her out and the guy killed her.A guy I sold my bucket system and begged for. He had her for 2 years and bought a ranch in costa rica.Never even bought me a beer.
I found it in my computer on a search but it does not tell me where it found it. I will post it later. JK
I looked at can not find her location. So I will throw in another of one of my fav strains I made. I loved this herb. She was so different that all the club owners could not relate to it. It smells like seaweed and celery and had the cleanest taste. it was a c-4 x strawberry d .One fool told it was too strong.

 

[DonJuanMatus]

Thanks Don Juan. Really look forward to hearing from you when you have time.

No Co2 at all in your setup?

Is it possible to go from ez cloner to bulk rockwool? As far as cuts into cubes in a tray with a dome - takes a long time and seems to stress them a lot more than a cloner.

Chemdog #4 looks like a really bushy strain or you are masterful at training it - are you just topping the spreading them like crazy? It would of course be very challenging to shape for example a blue dream like that even with daily topping, but even something less prone to stretch could still be challenging to get such a short, wide canopy with that many tops... any recommendations for great shaping/topping?

Was trying to figure out how you lifted 30 gal smart pots full of soil from veg room to flower room - sounds very heavy, but I guess doable with 2 people. 20 gal no prob. You dont have any probs getting through the doorways to the veg room just before flip with that wide of a canopy? Its like 3' wide at flip?

Assuming you go directly to 1 plant under each light at flip, but it looks like maybe you have it set up to be able to move your lights closer together initially and then spread them apart (you said 6' at one point I think) as they get further into flower. That sounds a little crazy spreading lights and plants with all the stakes and trellis as you progress. But maybe with the bamboo holding the trellis its all pretty secure. So you vary between like 3' and 6' centers on the lights?

Perpetual is great to spread out the work, but some of the downsides are that the timing can be challenging with multiple strains and it does not allow for the room to be entirely cleaned, reset and sterilized between rounds. Allows for a much smaller veg space for sure. There are pros and cons to everything.

Love seeing your work, and thanks again for taking time to answer questions.

well this thread went to shit real quick

- no, there was no co2 in the room pictured, and environment was undialed , and i still had a tree come in at 2.5#...im confident i could average 2.5 without c02 and possibly 3# with it...i plan on c02 very soon as its hugely beneficial but this is just to show people that you can still pull very good weight without it


- yes you can go cloner to bulk wool, ive done it with good results...just allow the bulk wool to dry out a little before you xplant so the roots branch out in search of water from the get go and establish themselves quicker

- Chemdog #4 is not bushy at all, check out other peoples grows with it..it is bushy like that from how i train it..i can make any strain that bushy from a lanky og to a stretch haze..i have mcfly going right now which shoots up like a corn stalk and its shaping just fine, same with trainwreck...and blue dream would do just the same, infact it would be easier than the Chemdog #4 due to it growing more sat dom....i dont top plants ever, not a fan of it..nor do i tie them down at all...all these plants were shaped with nothing but very aggressive super cropping from rooted clone until flower..i super cropped each one of those chem 4s a few hundred times, 10-15 times a week...once a week i get down to eye level and super crop down any branches that are growing outside of the shape im aiming for, and little by little the plan begins to grow outward as opposed to upward

- i dont lift the 30 gals, i drag them across the poly floor by myself from veg to flower...not hard at all, i used to drag bales of promix a few miles through a swamp, thats hard work....i have my veg and flower right next to eachother seperated by 2 walls of poly, one wall from the veg room and one wall from the flower room...each of these walls has zipper doors on them that are each 4 feet wide and roll up to the roof...once a month when i move the 20s to the flower room i zip open both doors, ties them to the roof and slide the plants from veg to flower and zip them back up...i designed the positioning of the veg and flower room in a way where it was easiest to move them from one to the other..plant are usually around 4 feet wide at flip and thats why i made the doors that wide

- i use a 5x5 footprints per kw..if i had a tall enough roof id go 6x6 footprints, but i dont so i use 5x5's...lights are stationary and never get moved or raised/lowered ever

- the timing for perpetual is not hard at all...i have transplant and harvest and clone dates written out in the grow for the next 2 years, literally and have my phone give me a reminder when i have to do something..the only thing that would change that is vigor or lack of in a strain as some grow faster than others..but they still get flipped and what not based on my calender..i also dont see a reason to resterilize a room that doesnt have anything wrong with it .. i dont have bugs and have never had mold or pm once my entire career...if bugs show , they get knocked out long before they are in flower..when i chop half the room i sweep the floors, mop a little and i re fill it...with a perpetual there is not alot of room for error so you have to be ontop of everything to catch something before it starts..if you allow bugs or mold into a perpetual flower room your pretty much out of luck and have to break down and start over

thanks for the kind words, happy to share

 

[Theoneandonly Z]

well this thread went to shit real quick

i used to drag bales of promix a few miles through a swamp, thats hard work....

haha thats the truth! i was pushing bales down one side of a gully and back up the other... talk about a shitty day

 

[purpleberry]

DonJuan your style of growing is part of what got me to go in the direction I did. Open bulbs up a little high spread out and large pots for the roots help a lot. Ive seen a few growers with this style and they always seem to claim big numbers. Work on your environment and I bet you get to over 3lb a plant.

 

[GI JO]

Well, I'd give my right arm to have anything like I've seen here. Everybody should be pleased as shit!

 

[mountain]

well this thread went to shit real quick

- no, there was no co2 in the room pictured, and environment was undialed , and i still had a tree come in at 2.5#...im confident i could average 2.5 without c02 and possibly 3# with it...i plan on c02 very soon as its hugely beneficial but this is just to show people that you can still pull very good weight without it


- yes you can go cloner to bulk wool, ive done it with good results...just allow the bulk wool to dry out a little before you xplant so the roots branch out in search of water from the get go and establish themselves quicker

- Chemdog #4 is not bushy at all, check out other peoples grows with it..it is bushy like that from how i train it..i can make any strain that bushy from a lanky og to a stretch haze..i have mcfly going right now which shoots up like a corn stalk and its shaping just fine, same with trainwreck...and blue dream would do just the same, infact it would be easier than the Chemdog #4 due to it growing more sat dom....i dont top plants ever, not a fan of it..nor do i tie them down at all...all these plants were shaped with nothing but very aggressive super cropping from rooted clone until flower..i super cropped each one of those chem 4s a few hundred times, 10-15 times a week...once a week i get down to eye level and super crop down any branches that are growing outside of the shape im aiming for, and little by little the plan begins to grow outward as opposed to upward

- i dont lift the 30 gals, i drag them across the poly floor by myself from veg to flower...not hard at all, i used to drag bales of promix a few miles through a swamp, thats hard work....i have my veg and flower right next to eachother seperated by 2 walls of poly, one wall from the veg room and one wall from the flower room...each of these walls has zipper doors on them that are each 4 feet wide and roll up to the roof...once a month when i move the 20s to the flower room i zip open both doors, ties them to the roof and slide the plants from veg to flower and zip them back up...i designed the positioning of the veg and flower room in a way where it was easiest to move them from one to the other..plant are usually around 4 feet wide at flip and thats why i made the doors that wide

- i use a 5x5 footprints per kw..if i had a tall enough roof id go 6x6 footprints, but i dont so i use 5x5's...lights are stationary and never get moved or raised/lowered ever

- the timing for perpetual is not hard at all...i have transplant and harvest and clone dates written out in the grow for the next 2 years, literally and have my phone give me a reminder when i have to do something..the only thing that would change that is vigor or lack of in a strain as some grow faster than others..but they still get flipped and what not based on my calender..i also dont see a reason to resterilize a room that doesnt have anything wrong with it .. i dont have bugs and have never had mold or pm once my entire career...if bugs show , they get knocked out long before they are in flower..when i chop half the room i sweep the floors, mop a little and i re fill it...with a perpetual there is not alot of room for error so you have to be ontop of everything to catch something before it starts..if you allow bugs or mold into a perpetual flower room your pretty much out of luck and have to break down and start over

thanks for the kind words, happy to share

Thanks again for sharing info.

Hope you dont mind more q's...

1. Shaping and canopy: So you supercrop during veg to get aprox 40 tops in a 5x5 flat area? When you flip you have like a 4x4 flat canopy with the plant about 2-2.5 feet tall measured from soil/medium to tops? That then fills in to more like a 5x5 canopy in flower with the edges a little less flat?

View attachment 306649

2. Supercropping: this isnt exactly tree specific and hopefully not off topic, but if there are any specifics on what you find really effective for supercropping trees for better yield that you would like to share that would be great.

3. Reflectors: Big footprint seems to be essential for improving yields with trees. Looks like you are using something like these: for reflectors, and getting a great even 5x5 footprint. Trouble with hot spots in the center? Seems like not having glass in a reflector to reduce light helps yields. Have you tried adjust a wings or other large footprint reflectors?

4. Containers: curious your experience of the 30 gal smartpots vs the 18-20 gal round bins. Do you get a lot of root wrapping with the round bins? Assuming much more frequent watering with the smart pots drying out... Did that lead to the need for more flowthru or periodic flushing?

5. Automation: sounds like you are moving to soil/blumats from the rockwool/driplines to help automate things. Did you run the driplines on an automated schedule? With blumats assuming you are looking at a feed/water system with constant lower EC and consistent flowthru instead of a typical soil water/water/feed type schedule.

6. Sorry if this was missed in your last posts - how have you found humidity to affect yields?

Huge thanks again in advance for sharing your experience.

 

[mountain]

Large trees often = large colas = increased risk of mold.

Wondering what techniques tree farmers are using to avoid mold / botrytis.

 

[true grit]

Keep your dehuey cranking. Towards the end just make sure you don't let buds get squished against others/wall/cage. Found the only time its happened to me are spaces where buds/moisture get trapped and buds are damaged. Though i do keep my rh between 50-60% all cycle.

 

[Jalisco Kid]

Large trees often = large colas = increased risk of mold.

Wondering what techniques tree farmers are using to avoid mold / botrytis.

I spray my plants with K silicate ,the last time about 1/2 through flowering. I believe this is what keeps me from getting the grey funk. If you notice they rot from the inside out. The bud at 5 weeks is were I believe it starts. I spray just above 8.0 pH. Suerte JK
Having good even air movement is the real key. My buds are at 65 %rh up to around a week before harvest. I lower down to 50% to harden the buds not because of mold.

 

[Amber]

Great idea for a thread True Grit
I love organic tree's:) indoors and out.....

GR33nL3AF I find it challenging as well growing large tree's organically
The proper timing of sequential transplants makes accomplishing this task much easier for me......

Here's a current Sledge Hammer Bubba clone that was vegged for eight weeks then flowered in a 20 gallon container of Black Gold/Roots soil mix
This pic was taken 28 days into flower
It was transplanted it into the 20 gallon container then vegged another 9 days, then moved it into flower......

This clone started life in a half gallon container ,then a 1 gallon,then a 3 gallon,later in veg a 7 gallon container than finally the 20 gallon container
These sequential transplants every 10-12 days work well for my gardening style and allow my plants to develop a large, dense, healthy,root system......
This plant gets about 3- 3 1/2 gallons of water per day
My flower room temp is always in the mid 70's when the lights are on......

This Sledge Hammer Bubba is in a room with 1000 watt HPS flats and verts
It is getting over 110 watts per sq. ft.
The transition from veg under 1000 watt halides to the intensity of the flower room must be very gradual to avoid UV burn and light bleaching issues
I find with verts and flats I have very little larf ,even on six - seven foot tall trees

I tend to have nice yields and quality using the combination of flats and verts and prefer that style for my garden

I personally find the verts are a bitch to work around ,and one would think after getting burned numerous times I would remember they're hanging there.......:eek:
Eye protection is a must working around the verts!

In my experience,strain selection is key to getting over 2 lbs a plant indoors
I tend to find with a Diesel or Chem style plant large yields are pretty easy to accomplish indoors
A Bubba or OG type plant is much more challenging for me

The Last Sledge Hammer Bubba I ran was 3 feet wide and 3 1/2 feet tall and put off 11 oz's........this one is 4 1/2 feet wide and over four feet tall so I'm hoping it will yield a lb or more...

Years ago I ran a hybrid system where the bottom 3 inches of the 20 gallon pots contained hydroton
I put airstones in the bottom of each container and in each tray and aerated them constantly with aquarium pumps,this encouraged roots to grow out the drainage holes into the trays

I never found this caused much of an effect one way or the other ,but it sure looked cool and hi tech for organic soil......
I scrapped this idea after a few runs........

I'm looking forward to seeing what other farmers are doing with their tree's:)
View attachment 305440

Wow shes beautiful

 

[mountain]

I spray my plants with K silicate ,the last time about 1/2 through flowering. I believe this is what keeps me from getting the grey funk. If you notice they rot from the inside out. The bud at 5 weeks is were I believe it starts. I spray just above 8.0 pH. Suerte JK
Having good even air movement is the real key. My buds are at 65 %rh up to around a week before harvest. I lower down to 50% to harden the buds not because of mold.

Plenty of Si fed to the roots doesnt seem to prevent mold.

Lots of air movement = lots of oscillating fans gently moving everything?

You do like a weekly Si foliar up through week 4 or 5? Things are usually really starting to move along by then... No orange hairs from the spray? Tell us more about your Potassium Silicate foliar techniques...

 

[mountain]

Keep your dehuey cranking. Towards the end just make sure you don't let buds get squished against others/wall/cage. Found the only time its happened to me are spaces where buds/moisture get trapped and buds are damaged. Though i do keep my rh between 50-60% all cycle.

Thanks. Even staying below 50% doesn't seem to guarantee no mold in trees... Maybe more direct airflow / oscillating fans hitting every top would help...

 

[ttystikk]

Thanks. Even staying below 50% doesn't seem to guarantee no mold in trees... Maybe more direct airflow / oscillating fans hitting every top would help...

As counterintuitive as it may sound, I've had my powdery mildew problems get worse when driving rh down to 50% or less. I think it actually contributes to stressing the plants and making them more susceptible to attack rather than less so. Even at the end, my rh stays around 60%. Air movement around my plants makes a substantial difference in overall health, not just disease resistance alone.

 

[El Cerebro]

pm and grey mold (botrytis) not the same thing and thrive under different conditions, for those who don't know.