Obama eavesdropping?

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squiggly

squiggly

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Yes that's exactly it..Marxist for lack of better words(or understanding)..he's not pleased Liberals or Conservatives. He had both Houses in first term and failed to pass Single Payer health care system and instead Obamacare. Which I predict will fail miserably defacing his party and that a Single Payer Act will be signed in the future by a Republican no doubt.

I'm not speaking about the DOJ AP leaks...what do we know of intimidation tactics taking place amongst all the hoopla as of late? We don't, but that's assuming. Time will tell and your right all this is nothing new.. not even 100 years old new..but it doesn't excuse the abuse or fix the problem. We can only hope that WW3 doesn't break out with Obama at the helm or we might kiss the rest of our Civil Liberties goodbye.


Honestly dude I agree with literally everything you're saying except that Obama is shitting on civil liberties.

It just isn't true, and you've yet to provide an example or some support as to how or why you might be saying that it is.

Please, if you have something like that--let me know. I'm not even trying to be a penis-face when I say that. I'm like 99.999% sure that you have no such example to offer, but I'm open to the off chance that you might.

This doesn't mean I think Obama is God's gift to the oval office. I agree he's been a disappointment to everyone. I disagree about why in a lot of ways. I think it has a ton to do with this tactic:



Wasting two years which should've been spent on fixing problems and working together as countrymen on vehemently trying to deny a president any semblance of success is asinine and that it was acceptable is a big part of why this country is broken.

As for the singer payer option. You must've just ripped 20 bong loads if you think a Republican can sign off on such a thing after all of the fanfare surrounding the attempt to put one into Obamacare. It'd be political suicide.
 
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~ Ben Franklin

"But I know that the people who are involved in these programs... They're professionals. In the abstract you can complain about Big Brother and how this is a program run amok, but when you actually look at the details, I think we've struck the right balance." Obama on NSA spying by way of FISA

Surely these "professionals" will never abuse FISA..lol. No one will ever abuse NDAA.
 
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as a side note Squiggley...you should rip a few bongs and do some more reading.
The GOP is already posturing on how to repeal Obamacare by way of Single Payer.
 
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They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~ Ben Franklin

"But I know that the people who are involved in these programs... They're professionals. In the abstract you can complain about Big Brother and how this is a program run amok, but when you actually look at the details, I think we've struck the right balance." Obama on NSA spying by way of FISA

Surely these "professionals" will never abuse FISA..lol. No one will ever abuse NDAA.


This doesn't fall on Obama's desk, sorry.

The fact that he makes a statement about an act which was passed in the 1970s and is overseen by congressional committee doesn't all of a sudden make your point that he's shitting on civil liberties EVEN IF we were to stipulate that FISA is being abused--which of course is just a guess at best.

There's no evidence here, no substance to the argument.
I'm asking you for evidence, and I think you're finding it difficult to admit that you have none--and that perhaps you've just been victim to listening to the media a bit too much on this one and buying the shit they're shoveling.

Like I said, I don't think the dude is a saint, but let's not make stuff up or stretch to make something fit when it doesn't. There are plenty of reasonable things to dislike him for, stick with those versus making wild accusations that you can't back up.

Hyperbole is a waste of time and it helps no one.
 
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as a side note Squiggley...you should rip a few bongs and do some more reading.
The GOP is already posturing on how to repeal Obamacare by way of Single Payer.


If this is true it should be called the "Republican Hypocritical Act of 2013", lol.

Realistically if they put a single payer bill forward that kept the changes to insurance company power intact--I'll bet a ton of democrats would sign on. You know what they'd call it? Obamacare before Republicans had their way with it lol.
 
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lol you are a serious dick-riding fan-boy..relentless! I'm trying to stay on topic here..not debate your love affair. Are you that fucking deluded...Obama signed NDAA! Most Americans could care less about their Civil Liberties until they find out they themselves have been trampled on, good for Obama and his fan boys, like you. That doesn't fix that NDAA is contrary to Bill of Rights. It seems the Obama Administration is doing a lot of "damage control" lately. If he's doing such a great job he wouldn't be insulted by his own party members on the daily.
 
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lol you are a serious dick-riding fan-boy..relentless! I'm trying to stay on topic here..not debate your love affair. Are you that fucking deluded...Obama signed NDAA! Most Americans could care less about their Civil Liberties until they find out they themselves have been trampled on, good for Obama and his fan boys, like you. That doesn't fix that NDAA is contrary to Bill of Rights. It seems the Obama Administration is doing a lot of "damage control" lately. If he's doing such a great job he wouldn't be insulted by his own party members on the daily.


All that was done was to put on the books a practice which we were already undertaking at Guantanamo and which Congress would not let the president end.

It's like I said I'm not here to defend Obama, but I'd like to defend reason and logic--which requires some kind of evidence and support for big claims. No matter who or what you support--truth is one, and we won't get there by guessing and assuming shit willy nilly.

What has been left out of most discussions about this is, and I just had this argument with my sister-in-law, that regardless of what amendments were tossed into the NDAA (which really is just a Defense budget) the Supreme Court has already ruled that habeas corpus applies to all people.

The amendment discussing this was intended to bring to light what was happening in Guantanamo--but the actual language itself is inconsequential, because the Supreme Court has already made its ruling.

With that reality in mind, what part of the NDAA is it that you have a problem with? Some particular part of the defense budget or appropriations thereof?

I'm not less disappointed with Obama than most liberals are I imagine, I'm just disappointed for different reasons because I realize what the limits on his power are. People make him out to be Stalin and what-have-you but have no grasp on what he's actually capable of.

He isn't even like Putin, and is a far stretch from Stalin or Hitler.

The president is a god damned figure head in this country, ESPECIALLY when congress is dead-locked.

Congress runs the show, read the Constitution again if you're confused about that.
 
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Uhhh..prolonged detention? Politics as usual..at least he won't pull a hat trick. Understand me clearly..he's no Stalin or Hitler..but he's definitely an Eisenhower. He'll pass on the Terror Wars to the next without doing much more than increasing the Military Industrial Complex. Doing just enough to perpetuate and not end it. He escalated Afghanistan and kept Guantanamo open. Dropping Drones and now the sanctions in Iran. Granted Iran has to be dealt with as should Israel with their threats for escalating, but generally speaking people don't know how horrible sanctions can be to an already hyper-inflated economy. During Bush the sanctions on Iraq were lowly estimated that 500,000 human beings under the age of 6 died as a direct cause of sanctions. He went from an apology tour to restore the world's view on the US to business as usual. That is why he sucks. The reason why we are hearing more and more backlash in the media about shit every other Prez has gotten away with in the past is because of the coming Obamacare...it looks to be hurting our recovery already. It is what it is and the best hopey changey shit we can pull out of our collective asses is that we can right the ship and re-write what Obama has done so as not to be so damaging and actually please more than it displeases everyone.
 
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Uhhh..prolonged detention?

Not sans habeas corpus.

He escalated Afghanistan and kept Guantanamo open.

This should read prepared to draw down in 2014, ended the war in Iraq, and failed to close Guantanamo despite his best efforts which are ongoing even to this day due to unwillingness on the part of Congress (Read: conservatives) to act.

See it's not that I disagree with what you say has happened (especially with regard to Guantanamo)--it's just that you word things disingenuously, as though Obama has the power to change certain things which he doesn't. He can't just close Guantanamo--and by that right he can't "keep it open" either. You've worded that as though it's all on him, the fact is he needs congress to act and they haven't. This is the case for like 90% of what Obama has "done" and that's the hypocrisy of conservatives. They hamstring him by refusing to send him bills or legislate, and then blame him for the dismal results.

You are WAY too intelligent (I can tell just from going back and forth with you) for me to believe for even a SECOND that you don't grasp the difference between the truth and how you've worded that (ie he "kept" Guantanamo open). You know damn well he can't close it without Congress, and the way you said it constitutes a willful lie in my eyes.

Americans go along with it because they fail to have a 4th grade level Social Studies understanding of our system of government and how it operates. The legislative branch writes the laws, the president signs them. If the legislative branch does nothing, the president does nothing. His remaining job is to be the face of the nation in foreign affairs with top leaders, and to be the commander in chief of the military. Neither of which affords him the power to close Guantanamo or to change the way the government does business, collects intelligence (via dictate of Congress), etc. The things you want to blame on him simply aren't his job.

Again, read the Constitution of that confuses you. His job is spelled out therein--and it doesn't involve being the King of America. There is a structure to the changes he can make, and it lives and breathes through Congress.

Dropping Drones and now the sanctions in Iran.

Drones, I'm on board with you there--though he is trying to get rid of the AUMF (conservatives have explained they want to expand it).

This is precisely where your suggestion that congress hasn't declared war since 41 comes in. That's absolutely right, but do you know why? Because after WWII war was extremely unpopular and remains so even through to today. Congress is SUPPOSED to declare war but has foolishly passed the buck to the president through authorizations over the past 60 odd years.

They do this because they are more interested in keeping their jobs than doing the right thing. You see, republicans have it in their heads that this is the right way to do things. They want a singular leader in the president who has ultimate power. They started to pile power on the position under Bush and now they're SUPER pissed that Obama has the same power.

In this way their vision for the country is FAR more Stalinistic than Obama could ever hope to be. Authorizations--vis a vis AUMF, the Patriot Act, and the like--are EXACTLY the way people like Hitler and Stalin rose to and ultimately usurped power. I'm not drawing a direct comparison, because we're nowhere near one, but if we're going to play this word game it helps to know the history of how those men rose to power. They did it by seeking out more and more centralized power.

Selective memory has struck again. Now that they have cock-blocked Obama legislatively and will likely maintain the cock block till he's out of office--they want to start trying to expand AUMF (they're on record having said this, McConnel and Graham--and I'm sure others, Republicans don't do anything without the head office deciding on talking points these days--have explained their intention here) in preparation for the next, hopefully republican, president.

As far as Iran, please remind me what is wrong with sanctions again? If we had republicans we'd have expanded AUMF and likely be droning in Iran already and we'd turn a populace that doesn't really give two shits about us into ANOTHER group of people calling for the demise of America.

Granted Iran has to be dealt with as should Israel with their threats for escalating, but generally speaking people don't know how horrible sanctions can be to an already hyper-inflated economy.

That's sort of the point isn't it?

During Bush the sanctions on Iraq were lowly estimated that 500,000 human beings under the age of 6 died as a direct cause of sanctions. He went from an apology tour to restore the world's view on the US to business as usual.

This goes back to my previous argument from way back in this thread--sometimes people suffer when those who are responsible for them fail to act. Whether that means the leaders, or the people who fail to oust them. It's just reality.

You're painting this picture of the world where no one should ever die and everything should be politically correct. It sounds great, but it's an unattainable hogwash vision of the world. People are going to die, the idea behind sanctions is to reduce the amount of them who die. There is no easy answer to this type of thing, so we default on the side which works out best for us. That's the nature, and the benefit, of being the guys holding the stick. Don't worry--200 years down the line we'll be getting held down and buttfucked for all of this in retaliation, and it will be some other shithead nation sanctioning us.

The reason why we are hearing more and more backlash in the media about shit every other Prez has gotten away with in the past is because of the coming Obamacare...it looks to be hurting our recovery already.

I agree this is where the backlash comes from, but there is no evidence that its hurting recovery. According to conservatives, up until Romney lost, there was no recovery. Didn't exist. Meanwhile as soon as Obama wins a recovery materializes as a talking point. Very convenient.

It is what it is and the best hopey changey shit we can pull out of our collective asses is that we can right the ship and re-write what Obama has done so as not to be so damaging and actually please more than it displeases everyone.


Honestly the changes from Obamacare are mostly positive and aren't as sweeping as most would have you believe. It really is an exceedingly conservative reform from the standpoint of how bad the healthcare problem in this country is tanking us financially. Much bigger action is needed to fix shit.

I will be SURE to rub your face in this prediction of yours a few years down the line after Obamacare is implemented and the world hasn't ended.

It's really very simple the government is done with three things:

1. Paying for everyone's inflated ER costs to keep horrendously bloated hospital infrastructure afloat.

2. Allowing insurance companies to fuck over paying customers in attempts (and previously in great successes) to profiteer from their suffering and sometimes death.

3. Allowing insurance companies to exist in a market space where competition does not exist.

It's not a national health service, there is no government option, there are no dictates from above about pricing structure for care or medicine (there should be). It's not this "government takeover of healthcare" as its been billed.

A takeover would include AT LEAST those three things and likely many more.

This is simply saying WOAH WHAT THE FUCK to insurance companies and essentially taxing about 10% of the country to pay for it. Down the road it could be more depending on what companies choose to do with benefits, but indications so far are that most will continue to offer them.

I agree that ultimately we'll replace this, but I think that because it doesn't do enough--not because it did too much. Obamacare is a starting point, not an over reach.
 
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"Not sans habeas corpus."
Feinstein-Lee Amendment actually expands detention without a judge to civilians in the US under AUMF. Habeus Corpus would do little for someone detained within the Military without access to lawyers, family, or the court itself. sans civil liberties ..God help if that expands to simple government critics during wartime...i.e. dissidents
 
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"Not sans habeas corpus."
Feinstein-Lee Amendment actually expands detention without a judge to civilians in the US under AUMF. Habeus Corpus would do little for someone detained within the Military without access to lawyers, family, or the court itself. sans civil liberties ..God help if that expands to simple government critics during wartime...i.e. dissidents


Actually, no.

The language in the amendment does this but, because of the Supreme Court ruling that habeas corpus applies to all people, the amendment itself is ineffectual.

In effect, it is something which is on record as law which technically does not take effect as a result of a Supreme Court ruling.

Now, do we still have people detained there in Guantanamo? Yes. The point of this amendment was actually to acknowledge that. See this is actually something that you see being repeated under Obama. The government is doing bad shit--but it is now acknowledging it more.

As I said earlier, you don't really--being a smart person--believe that the NSA JUST started these types of programs (in fact we know this one began in 2006). It's just that now it's acknowledging them.

This is why there's a lot of perceived (and literal) hypocrisy in Congress failing to act on closing Guantanamo. It's a sticky situation to say the god damn least.

In the end the law is what the Supreme Court says it is: habeas corpus applies to all.
 
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Obama could have vetoed NDAA, he didn't. That was THE biggest civil liberty loss in history.
 
sanvanalona

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as a side note Squiggley...you should rip a few bongs and do some more reading.
The GOP is already posturing on how to repeal Obamacare by way of Single Payer.
I do not have enough chronic to make me believe this fucking bullshit! There is no way that the Republican party will embrace "social healthcare", or the single payer act. This is written by one pundit, that is it! I could never see the Republican party as it is today, split between fiscal and social conservatives, the ability to embrace this act. Essentially this pundits idea is how can we get Obama and destroy Obamacare.......by doing what every liberal has hoped would come out of the insurance fiasco in the ACA, establishing a single payer option. Remember Pelosi and many top dems were one hundred percent for the single payer act and it did not go through due to the watering down to the original bill/idea that Obama did in order to appease the right.
 
caregiverken

caregiverken

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I agree with squigg..Obama is just a figure head...A lying sack of shit figure head...but still..:rolleyes:

Now back on topic.
"they" are doing more than eavesdropping

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Obama could have vetoed NDAA, he didn't. That was THE biggest civil liberty loss in history.


I'm going with the patriot act big time on this one.

You need to understand that the language in the NDAA which appears to effect civil liberties in reality does not. The Supreme Court ruling prevents it from having any tangible effect, they are words on a page and nothing more.

The Patriot Act, on the other hand, is very real and legal.

What remains of the NDAA is nothing but what it sounds like, that being national defense budget appropriations. The language is scary I totally agree, but it's just language--its not effectual law. It is still very much illegal to detain someone without presenting them to a judge and moving them towards a judicial process.

When the Supreme Court says something, that's the law--and the Supreme Court ruled on this.
 
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I do not have enough chronic to make me believe this fucking bullshit! There is no way that the Republican party will embrace "social healthcare", or the single payer act. This is written by one pundit, that is it! I could never see the Republican party as it is today, split between fiscal and social conservatives, the ability to embrace this act. Essentially this pundits idea is how can we get Obama and destroy Obamacare.......by doing what every liberal has hoped would come out of the insurance fiasco in the ACA, establishing a single payer option. Remember Pelosi and many top dems were one hundred percent for the single payer act and it did not go through due to the watering down to the original bill/idea that Obama did in order to appease the right.


Exactly, this would be like saying you're going to defeat the democrats by giving in to their hearts desire.

Sign me up for a helping of these Republicans.

Unfortunately, they do not exist.
 
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