ArcticOrange said:

Nah all I'm saying is take organic preventative measures, make strong healthy plants in good environments and don't have the problem in the first place. I'm not worried about chemicals effecting flavor I'm worried about what they'll do to me and others I share with. Read the msds and err on the side of caution.

Those are some pretty ladies by the way.

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DrFever said:

Personally i think the best deterrent for pest is cover crops of pest resistant plants such as chives , citronella etc and most importantly a strong healhy plant to begin with so this means a really good soil full of life where the microbes and plant combat for which controls insect protection in plants just like in nature only the strong survive same thing applies for plants
for the life of me i cannot figure out even if a plant is infested with insects why anyone would even try to use a organic pesticide , Yes even organic farms USE chems for insecticides ,
to achieve what ???? you got insects deal with them now one or 2 applications of chem and problem solved or 10 -20 applications of some organic witch craft brew and still maybe have them ..
Not only have you stressed plant 10 - 20 times more you made them weaker its bad enough when a person see's insects cause by that time they saw them the insects surely are 4 - 6 th generation and been feeding on the plant for sometime now
People got to snap out of it that just because your growing organic means you cannot use chemicals to treat infestation i find that retarded you got insects get rid of them the sure way end of story

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Seamaiden said:

You can also get chitinase from insect frass, it's far less smelly and won't shift pH the way crab meal can. ;)

AND, if you're into it, it's a vegan source. 2-2-2+

I don't use neem at all, and won't add it back after learning what I have from my extract professionals. I can't stand the odor, either.

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Seamaiden said:

You can also get chitinase from insect frass, it's far less smelly and won't shift pH the way crab meal can. ;)

AND, if you're into it, it's a vegan source. 2-2-2+

I don't use neem at all, and won't add it back after learning what I have from my extract professionals. I can't stand the odor, either.

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Seamaiden said:

Honestly, gentlemen, what does *any* of this have to do with the question at hand here? If you don't wish to use any type of 'cide' then don't, simple as that. But the original question posed is a good question and I see no problem for its being asked.

Also trap plants have great utility.

You're not considering some very real issues here when making those statements. I'm a market gardener, I supplement our income with sales of veggies and eggs. One year I planted a large crop of specialty Brassica, Romanescu broccoli. I hadn't heard of cabbage aphids. Until I got them. Bad. Look it up, they're like root aphids but they infest every curd of the head, absolutely everything. I lost the entire crop, it was unsalvageable. 30lbs at least, that I didn't get to sell because you can't sell food full of crunchy gritty bugs. Did you know that there really *are* no organic options for eradication or control? If I'd known about them when I planted the crops, THEN I could have done the buried row covers thing, but once established there was nothing for me, and that's for organic production.

So, what does someone do who's relying entirely on that crop? And I am curious what chemical pesticides you're referring to as well. When you ask, "To achieve what?" you're ignoring the whole point, IMO. To achieve a saleable crop, of course.

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Seamaiden said:

You can also get chitinase from insect frass, it's far less smelly and won't shift pH the way crab meal can. ;)

AND, if you're into it, it's a vegan source. 2-2-2+

I don't use neem at all, and won't add it back after learning what I have from my extract professionals. I can't stand the odor, either.

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Dutch420grow said:

Some good info I've dug up...think Coots came up with this..i could be wrong

Maybe sharing different approaches will be helpful for everyone, i.e. taking a different look at making the best use of the materials you have to work with.
Neem (or Karanja) products are at the center of my IPM program. Neem meal (aka cake) is used in the soil mix and I also use it to make a tea in conjunction with kelp meal. As a bio-nutrient accumulator, neem meal is on par with the heavies like alfalfa, kelp, comfrey, borage, stinging nettles, etc. and what distinguishes one from another are the unique compounds that they create. Only brown kelp species create Alginic acid &Mannitol. Alfalfa creates Triacontanol but Comfrey does not and so on and so on.
Neem creates over 360 compounds of which around 30 function as a pesticide and/or fungicide. So with this one material I have two problems covered. Another compound that we want to see in our soil is an enzyme called Chitinase (Pronounced Kite-In-A's) Many organisms create this enzyme including bacteria. The reason that we add crab meal is for the Chitin (Kite-In) As bacteria degrade this polysaccharide this enzyme is created and it's this enzyme that gives us the pesticide benefit - not the Chitin directly.
Well, in my studies I learned that sprouted seeds release this enzyme that was encoded by the parent plant. So besides the enzymes that enhance the resin levels, the enzymes teas play a role as a growth regulator by degrading the eggs preventing the larva from maturing. (see our barley product for more info on DIY cheap enzyme teas that you can make yourself.)
I also top-dress the containers with a mix of chopped leaves with vermicompost. Plants that I've used successfully include comfrey, borage, peppermint, spearmint, oregano, rosemary, thyme, stinging nettles and always a bit of neem meal. Having that layer prevents a number of problems as far as insects & equally important the powdery mildew curse in the PNW. (CC lives in the Pacific North West)
I also make fresh teas using different plant leaves - lavender, spearmint, peppermint, oregano, thyme, borage, comfrey and my new favorite, yarrow. In fact when I spray with neem oil rather than mixing with plain water I use a botanical tea in its place. Some of the compounds in these leaves will kill on contact whereas neem oil does not. It works in a completely different way so by using botanical teas as the base you're getting a double whammy against the invaders.
Besides spraying above the soil I also lightly mist the top of the soil with any combination that I mentioned.
Powdery Mildew free since 2009 and as close as you can get to being free of Spider Mites in the PNW for over 2 years. The results speaks for itself.

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Seamaiden said:

Nope.

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