Our World

[baba G]

we did train osama bin laden did we not? He blew up our civilians according to you.

 

[squiggly]

Your one sick individual dude.

If I'm so sick, I'd ask what your solution is.

Do you really believe that if we leave Iran alone for 100 years, they'll come out the other end not in a war with us?

See it appears to me that most of you guys here decrying my lack of humanity would like to ignore this problem away. You'd like to just leave it and see what happens to the thousands crying for American blood.

You seem to think it'll just go away somehow.

It won't--Iran is a missile which is constantly gaining explosive power and accuracy. It's coming straight at America (or we're going to it, either way).

The thing is going to hit us--it's just when that is the question. Do we want it to hit when the explosion will be the greatest and will strike the closest to our heart? This goes for all of these nations where there is an every increasing number of people who would literally kill themselves to kill you and your kids. No amount of wishing things were different, or being politically correct, is going to stop the collision course.

Here's my thing: when I see a problem, I deal with it now, not later--and I certainly don't leave the mess for someone else to clean up, especially not my son or his sons.

If these people are hell bent on killing us or dying trying--I say we give the motherfuckers what they want.

They blew up our buildings--they killed our civilians. I bet you if we were doing the same thing to them (rather than the suicide bombers killing them trying to come after us)--they'd think twice about such things. That's my only point really. You fight fire with fire in war--not fire with pussy-footing.

Attacks on our country will continue until we become capable in the same way as our enemy. They have no care for their lives, or for the lives of innocents. Killing combatants isn't going to change that. It's sad to say, I admit it, but they won't think twice until people start dying that they didn't expect would die.

Until they lose something they thought couldn't be lost--they will continue to act as though their actions do nothing but promise them virgins in heaven.

You CANNOT WIN A WAR against such a combatant--I think that's been made painfully clear in Afghanistan.

 

[baba G]

There is no convincing you of a different view here squiggly. To try is a waste of time for me and you. What makes them want to kill us?
Answer that and ask yourself if as a country we could treat others differently? Does Iran want to kill all people on the planet? NO So, why us?
You seem as though you watch Fox news on the regular, you seem very afraid and fearful. This is just my opinion. I claim to know no more than anyone else, I don't have a solution for your sickness as you prob don't deem it a sickness anyways. :D

 

[squiggly]

These are a different people--they are not like us. Probably 80% of all 12 year olds in Afghanistan have witnessed a beheading (with a shitty, serrated, knife)--on the fucking street no less. I won't go into a detailed history lesson--but it might behoove some of you to look into the origins of Islam.

Islam essentially came out of a military takeover of literally hundreds of warring tribes, all of whom had different gods and had been at war for probably 1000 years. Mohammed came in and changed all of that by quelling them militarily. Islam actually means "to submit" and Muslim means "one who submits". That comes from this era when Islam was created--it was done under the heel of a boot.

Now that's all fine and good, Mohammed unified the mid-east in that time, something many had tried to do and no one could. What he didn't do was remove the cultural undertones included in a society made up of hundreds of previously warring tribes. In-fighting continued, a lot, for a long time. It essentially is still happening today.

Now I'm not saying mid-easterners are bad--I'm saying that they are different. Their culture has an endemic violence connected to it that would make just about ANY American cringe. I'm not making a judgment here, I'm simply stating facts. These people are much more cool with blood and killing than any American I've ever met.

I'll bet you in Afghanistan there are more than a few 15 or 16 year olds who have actually cut the head off of a person. Find me a comparison to that in America (where a group of dad's were egging on the 15 year old to do it).

I'm not saying that this more-violent culture is bad, or should be removed--what I'm saying is we can't treat it as though its America with a different language. It is not.

These people categorically do not understand live and let live. Even though its littered throughout their holy book--their culture has not adapted to that. It doesn't reflect it. Rest assured when they say they want America to fall--they mean it, and it's not 15% of them either.

Now I'll go back on my genocide comment--I was trying to illustrate something and I see the language has thrown people off in such a way that it's not really effective at all. I don't think the wholesale murder of millions is a good plan, but at the same time I don't think lying in wait for the next dick up our ass is a good one either.

 

[baba G]

Have you ever met anyone from Iran or better yet have you ever been there?

Squiggly: Is your viewpoint of Iran completely based on american media?

 

[dirk d]

In the early 1950's Iran had its very first democratically elected leader. Mossadegh. He nationalized the oil industry and basically kicked out the british that were raping the country of resources while the people were living in dirt huts.

Of course the British wouldn't have that and told Truman that Mossadegh was a communist. Of course the US, after forming an alliance with Saudi Arabia, wanted to get more resources. The CIA setup a coup and ousted the democratically elected leader. It was the CIA that put the Shah back into power. Many decades of torture and suffering were inflicted upon the citizens of Iran.

When the people had enough, and the Shah wanted to do his own thing, they overthrew the Shah (short version) and Khomeinie took power. The hostages were CIA operatives and they were taken hostage because the leadership did not want a repeat of the 53 coup.

Shortly after, The West backed Saddam to Invade Iran. Saddam used chemical and biological weapons on the iranians, supplied by the US. Many many countries helped Iraq with weapons and fighter jets and pilots. Most Americans don't understand this.

Then ensued an 8 year war that wiped out many of my generation. This is the reason that Iran has the youngest citizens in the world.

 

[dirk d]

Iran is one of the most beautiful places in the World! The Persian Empire almost encompassed the entire known world at its height. Iranians have been responsible for some of the most amazing discoveries of humanity. Unfortunately it has been held down about 60 years because they will not take foreign control of their Country. Can anyone blame them???

 

[dirk d]

My Beautiful Iran how I miss you!

 

[dirk d]

here's another video for the ones that want to learn about true history. Not Fox History.

 

[sanvanalona]

Okay there's a lot in here and I actually want to address it. The truth is that I'm not childish or crazy. I say what I'm saying knowing full well the weight my words carry, and that many people will find them reviling. It really is as I've said. I see it as survival of the fittest.

I take the following quote: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Now maybe in your view, the good thing men should be doing is keeping my finger off the proverbial "button." I see it differently. I identify that there ARE CERTAINLY good men/women/children in countries like Iran. Hell, I worked for an Iranian woman for half my life in a gyro joint on the south side. She call's me babe when I come in, and I think of her as a 2nd mother. A really great woman.

That doesn't change that there are many good men in these countries doing nothing.

I'll make it very simple. I see this as a choice for these men:

1. Stand up for what is right, shake off your fetters, and steer your country on a sane path.

2. Do nothing, allow (and in many cases encourage; Pakistan?) hatred to breed in your country for a country that can utterly smash you, and be utterly smashed by said country.

You can flip the coin any way you like, but ultimately--IF these conditions are allowed to prevail in these countries, they will eventually become a big enough threat that we will go there. They are fucking themselves even if there's no button push in their future.

I think for some perspective perhaps I should mention that I'm an atheist (and painfully close to an anti-theist). To me, right and wrong is relative. I don't subscribe to a kushy, touchy, or feely description of what is right and wrong. To me, right is whatever guarantees most assuredly the continuance of my offspring and the offspring of my countrymen.

If that happens to be coexistence with a peaceful Iran, that is the best possible option to me. If, however, there is a looming possibility that such a peaceful coexistence is not possible--I'd be poised with my finger on the button, so to speak.

Here's my deal:

Let's just leave these dues alone, let all the happy and good people live in Iran, or wherever, and let's run the clock forward 100 years.

What happens then? When they have nukes? What happens as our borders become increasingly, rather than less, porous?

Can you predict to any degree of certainty that another attack won't take place on our soil? How would you weigh the lives of our civilians vs. the lives of theirs? Is it all equal to you?

That might work out in the politically correct bullshit-o-sphere we've embedded ourselves in--but the world is much greyer than this black and white type of thinking. Live and let live DOES NOT WORK AND IT'S NEVER GOING TO START.

Kill so that I live has ALWAYS been the norm, since the sun rose over life for the first time.

It's not that I don't care, or that I'm some wacko hell-bent on genocide. Quite the opposite, it's that a do care and I'd rather there be the least amount of killing there has to be. Essentially what I'm saying is that until we crush an enemy, and I mean really crush, the rest of them are going to think they can get away with this shit.

Sure we can pretend that if we just leave them alone everything will be honky dory--but it won't be.

Ceteris paribus we will be at war with Iran sometimes in the next 50 years. It's nearly unavoidable.

I'm a person who believes that the world of war hasn't changed all that much since the 16th century. It's still for all of the same reasons essentially. We, in America, have been so far removed from the brutal and vicious reality that exists beyond our borders that many of us truly believe that the lyrics of John Lennon's "Imagine" represent a real possibility.

News Flash: They do not.

Certainly there are huge percentages of middle-eastern peoples who could give a shit about America. Now I'd be fine if that's all they could give a shit about, but as it turns out they could also give a shit if their countrymen plot the destruction of America next door. Do you think we'd stand for a cell of people in our country plotting attacks on Germany, or Saudi Arabia, Syria?

No. We'd iron fist that shit like no other. There's a reason for that--a good one. One I believe it should behoove middle-eastern peoples to take up for themselves.

We do that because it's the RIGHT thing to do. Preventing death on any scale is the right way to go, and we follow that mantra here as best we can in the states (doesn't always work out admittedly). I was raised on that, and I'm going to die with it.

All in all, what I'm saying is that allowing your neighbors to be murderous fiends and doing nothing about it is reason enough, for me, to revoke your ticket to the future.

Strangely enough, if you look back through history this has OFTEN been the case. There are entire ethnic groups which no longer exist today as a result of their poor decisions, and failure to revolt against their (fucking crazy) kings/masters/whatever.

I guess my point is that history inexorably draws things into this direction anyway. Survival of the fittest is a real thing--it's just that in my opinion "fittest" includes qualities like value for human life, the gumption to stand up for it, the bravery to fight what is evil, the strength to overcome it.

It's not just about DNA, it's about your brain as well. It has to think and do the right things or you find yourself out of the gene-pool.

And yes, I have been out of the country.

Now for the other side where America is taking part in global occupation--I agree with you. We are pushing a lot of our own buttons and doing plenty of our own wrong. I won't deny that. This, to me, is really about threat.

Sure Iraq only had rocks to throw at us then. What would it have looked like in 100 years though? That's something i feel people often lose sight of when they look at what America's military does.

It might be shitty, but we're doing our very best to keep these guys down so that they can't fight us on a level-playing field. Regardless of what you think of that, it's the reality. Many of them hate us because of it--still others hate us for other reasons. At some juncture we're going to have to deal with that hate if it can bring a force to bear.

I think we were shown in 2001 that it can. If they can't meet us on the battlefield they will work through subversion. What we've been finding out lately is that they're actually pretty fucking good at it. I shudder to think what the possibilities would be if they could get a couple hundred people into America.

It might take them 100 years to do that, but if and when they do--I'll bet my button option will look a lot better to Americans.

If we follow your logic, then we should kill ourselves, because how can you guarantee that you are not going to be a threat to yourself or to me in the future. Seriously you should kill yourself under this logic, because who is to say that you may not get disillusioned with society, you would not be the first educated one ala Ted Kazinski (the unibomber). Right?

Trust me there is so much more to deal with, but I am a little lifted and a little tipsy so I must wait at least for a couple of hours to address everything properly, but I can leave you with the aforementioned tidbit to marinade on for the moment.

 

[sanvanalona]

Oh yeah one more thing.... I am guilty of believing that all people are equal, regardless of where they are born....so yes I equate my life with theirs. How does that make me wrong? Am I evil for believing in this equality?


And trust me Squigs we will deal with all that you brought up very soon, but I must ask this: If I remember right you are living in CO, could be wrong about that it just seems that is what I remember. If so let me be the first to invite you to the cali cup, I really think you need to smoke a little of what I smoke.....I can't help to think that it won't make you a little more compassionate! Just a thought

 

[squiggly]

Oh yeah one more thing.... I am guilty of believing that all people are equal, regardless of where they are born....so yes I equate my life with theirs. How does that make me wrong? Am I evil for believing in this equality?


And trust me Squigs we will deal with all that you brought up very soon, but I must ask this: If I remember right you are living in CO, could be wrong about that it just seems that is what I remember. If so let me be the first to invite you to the cali cup, I really think you need to smoke a little of what I smoke.....I can't help to think that it won't make you a little more compassionate! Just a thought

No see that's the thing. As it goes to this issue, its not something I expect everyone to go along with. Often times I do play the role of the convince-er here--but that's not my goal in this situation. This is something that I come into it knowing that I believe differently than just about everyone.

In the end what I'm saying amounts to nothing but conjecture--it's not a feasible option or something which can/should actually happen.

When I discuss this it's to get at the root of the problem and see it for what it is. As has been mentioned here already, we are FAR from a solution on this issue. I offer an alternative which is absolute.

If we take all solutions to exist along a spectrum of reasonable to overkill--I've gone with the overkill option. This, in my mind, represents a more realistic option than what we're currently going with.

What my real hope is, is that we'll move closer to that edge of the spectrum--we won't ever get to the overkill level I talked about.

I suppose I could say it all very succinctly by saying we need to be a little bit less concerned for their countrymen's safety and a little bit more for ours. It's not going to happen unidirectionally and all-at-once (with a button push) like I've stated--but we need to leave this idea that people don't get hurt in war, and that war isn't ugly, far far behind.

Our enemy is not hampered by such feelings, and sending our boys in that way has already been getting them killed, and it's going to continue to.

Here's my real preference--pull the military out, and rain drone strikes wherever the hell we can prove terrorists plots are happening--regardless of if the parent country likes it. I meant the word I used earlier--pussy-footing. We have been doing just that in both of the recent wars. The rules of engagement we send our guys in with are absolutely unequivocally leading to their deaths--so that we can protect the child of the man who killed them.

Sure I feel for that kid, but maybe the father should be focused on getting him to safety rather than killing Americans. You see its not so black and white, there is a huge amount of grey here. Who deserves to have their child more. The father of the American soldier, or the son of the man who would kill him (who in all likelihood will be indoctrinated to hate Americans and will follow in his father's footsteps)?

How do you make that choice? Which one is right (when one of the two is inevitable)?

I, personally, make it by choosing the American by default--that's really the heart of what my point is here.

 

[dirk d]

One day we shall meet again.

 

[dirk d]

Now this is my favorite part of Iran!!! lol

 

[sanvanalona]

But Squiggly you have not answered me. Should you not kill yourself based upon your logic of destroying the potential enemy?

 

[sanvanalona]

Please, please fellow farmers....let us smoke in our collective peace! I am hitting some cheese and thinking of all of you....please smoke whatever you got and do the same. We are already the rarity among the breed.

 

[dirk d]

Yes enough of hating and talk of murdering! I'm going to light up some Tahoe OG and mix in some of my 8 week cured White. I leave you with some beauty of my Iran.

 

[fishwhistle]

Man squiggly your all over the place,your like a democrat rolled up with a war mongering republican and crossed with a serial killer.Why you havent been banned is beyond me all you do is incite hate in a peaceful place.Do you even grow pot or do you just come here to fight and spew your crazy fuckin ideas?Leave us alone and take your shit to rollitup.
DirkD,I apologize for some dumbass saying he wants to blow up your homeland bro,thats not right.As for the whole cospiracy theory i cant tell you who flew them or why but i can tell you planes hit those towers,my daughter lived in downtown manhattan while attending the New school there and while she did not see the first hit,she heard it and she watched the second plane fly right into the building minutes later as did many thousands of others.

 

[squiggly]

But Squiggly you have not answered me. Should you not kill yourself based upon your logic of destroying the potential enemy?

I think that's a bit of a stretch if we're being logical, frankly. I'm not playing at a thought experiment here--I'm talking about active threats which we can see. Even if I weren't--I'm not speaking on philosophy, I'm talking tangibles. I was also trying to use extremes to lay out this idea of what the spectrum is. It goes from being giant pussies and walking into bullets and bombs and waiting to be nuked at some point, to genocide. Obviously I've ruffled some feathers going that far. Let me clarify what I actually mean--if say there is a future generation of Americans which will be in a war with Iran, and Iran will conquer America and all Americans will burn and die. In that case I'd rather push the button. I don't mean we should murder all of Iran this very moment. I'm saying if given the choice, I know which side I'm going with. What I'm saying is that the extremist culture (and it doesn't have to be Iran, that's a meaningless example--any country where this shit is breeding suffices) is seeking to give us EXACTLY THAT CHOICE. That is their objective, their goal. The utter destruction of America as well as everything and everyone in it. They do not mince words about this.

They haven't minced action either. The movement is not losing, but rather gaining ground. How far, as an American, should I be willing to let it go before I worry about the possibility of an all out all of you die or all of us die moment in history? Do I let you build your forces up now? Or do I squash you like an ant for you arrogance in expecting you have now or will ever have the power to do such a thing?

That's the thing. We have the bigger stick. Do we just sit here and wait around until they find a bigger one and act out their clear plans of committing genocide here in some service to this politically correct bullshit?

If you have a tumor, do you wait until it metastasizes, or do you cut it the fuck out?

I just happen to not look at the world in this touchy feely way where everything is always fuzzy and nice. Sometimes people want to kill people. If they think they've got the juice, I'd like to see them that and raise them $20 while we can. I don't want to wait until the decisions falls to them as to whether or not they want to utterly destroy us.

Now if they played nice and acted like they didn't want to destroy us but secretly they did, alright then I'd be chill with them. However, they've literally said what they want--and to me it's just this incredibly ballsy move. It's like saying okay, I'm in a body cast now--but when I get out I'm going to shoot you with my gun.

How bout I just choke you the fuck out in your wheelchair then? I mean when it comes right down to it, they started this genocide shit--not me. That's what they're after, I haven't even upped the fuckin' ante. I'm just saying, let's not just wait for these guys to get the things the need to actually do the stuff they want to do.

It makes sense to me. I don't expect for it to make sense to you, but I assure you--I am not a crazy person nor am I ever going to murder someone :)

@ fishwhistle -- what I am is a person who believes what he does, and doesn't shy from saying it. What I am is a liberal democrat who believes that war is ugly and while we would rather it weren't necessary--it is the inevitable fate of mankind. What I also am is someone who at least tries to be respectful of other people's opinions (not falsified facts disguised as opinions--there is a huge difference), which is more than I'm able to say for you. Saying I'm crossed with a serial killer? That's a dick move. I'm a realist--I know how much stuff there is on the planet. A finite amount, that's how much. Try and come to a happy medium there and you'll fall short every single time.

Try and fight it as we might, in the end we'll be a bunch of dogs flaying at each other for the last piece of meat there ever was or would be. Then we'll start eating each other--and it'll get weird.

Humans are weak creatures, with vile tendencies. As I've already said I wouldn't actually push a genocide button, I was trying to be figurative--it was not in good taste. Attacking my character for a lapse in judgment isn't going to derail any of what I've said which is factual. Any and all of my opinions have been and always will be subject question and criticism--but facts are facts.

We ultimately got ourselves here because a few people wanted to unseat facts with opinions. That is a huge pet peeve of mine, and so here you find me. I haven't been banned because I keep my comments like these in the proper forums, and I try not to personally attack people--I rather attack their positions.

I have had lapses in this before, for which I have already heartily apologized here--and I've done a good job I'd say since that time of keeping it about my opinion and what I think, and perhaps how that relates to others opinions--rather than about others themselves.

I apologized for that because I realize that I can't toot the logic horn and go around attacking people's character--those two don't go together. They don't go together for you either.

 

[Collembola]

George carlin rocks. That man has some brilliant things to say.