Our World

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dirk d

dirk d

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One of my favorite songs sanvanalona. i think religion is just an excuse for these people. Money and Power are their god's.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
 
sanvanalona

sanvanalona

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Yeah one of my favorites too. I guess what I am asking Dirk is, can this discussion of conspiracies be had without a basic agreement upon good and evil? I say this because ultimately what these people/ those in power are doing could be easily justified if there is no right and wrong. I agree that for the majority of powers religion is a tool to continue to hold on to their powers, but it seems that right and wrong are inevitable crossroads in these discussions. Love the content, I really do!
 
dirk d

dirk d

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good and evil -- In religion, ethics, and philosophy, the dichotomy "good and evil" refers to the location on a linear spectrum of objects, desires, or behaviors, the good direction being morally positive, and the Evil direction morally negative.
  • Good is a broad concept but it typically deals with an association with life, charity, continuity, happiness, love,prosperity and justice.
  • Evil is typically associated with conscious and deliberate wrongdoing, discrimination designed to harm others, humiliation of people designed to diminish their psychological needs and dignity, destructiveness, and acts of unnecessary and/or indiscriminate violence that are not legitimate acts of self-defense but aggressive and designed to cause ill-being to others.
  • The good and evil of a context represents a personal or subjective judgment, a societal norm, or either's claim to an absolute value related to the human nature or transcendent religious standard for that context.
This is from wikipedia and pretty much is what i believe when i think of good and evil. Of course people will always be biased to one end or the other.
 
sanvanalona

sanvanalona

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  • The good and evil of a context represents a personal or subjective judgment, a societal norm, or either's claim to an absolute value related to the human nature or transcendent religious standard for that context.



This is more along the camp that I fall in. Thanks for providing some definition here. Also, I want to make sure that I do not come off argumentative here as I think this discussion is very important and I have been having it (the discussion of conspiracies along the lines of good and evil) with many friends for a very long time, so I have no real ulterior motive like conversion, more so just interested in where others find themselves in these crossroads. Do you think the New World Order, Illuminati, Bilderbergs are essentially evil along the lines of the given definition? Or, do you think it is the human nature of people to take advantage of others, which to me would justify all of their actions, maybe not good but not evil either as they would be doing only what is in their nature to do?
 
dirk d

dirk d

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I put this thread up so all of us no matter what our views or opinions can have a discussion about the future of our world. I think if you do onto others as you would want done onto you is a great barometer for life's decisions.
 
nebulius

nebulius

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Anyone who doubts 9/11 was a cover up needs to watch this video. Im not some idiot who just believes everything I see and hear on youtube or the news ect. I have seen many videos about 9/11 and I always knew the towers were blown up but this video proves it with no doubts left.

PLEASE do yourself this favour.. smoke a bowl, sit back and try to dispute what you see if you can.. but I promise you can not.
Also to your Bill Clinton statement,The republican party spent 65 million of tax payers money to investigate his affairs and impeach him. While in 2001 the republican party only spent 15 million investigating 9/11..Interesting that Bills affair greatly outranks finding out who terrorized the country in terms of importance. Im begging anyone who doesnt believe 9/11 was an inside job to watch that video and prove me wrong.

No one ever changes anyone's minds in these arguments, all I can say is to be open minded and take time to look at the evidence from both sides and make up your own mind.

I have watched several docs. on each side of the argument and have weighed the evidence and in my mind there is no conspiracy here.

Here's a good article from popular mechanics on the subject link
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842
 
dirk d

dirk d

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Ummmm....we did.

Maybe you weren't watching--Iceland was all types of in the news when this happened.

I'm sure i'm not the only one squiggly who didn't hear about Iceland. I did however hear about the 100's of billions we gave to bankers so they can make sure their bonus's are paid. I also remember about the government giving mortgage asset deals to their friends and insuring all the losses.

Good to have you back though squiggly. I posted about the pentagon hit and wanted to know your opinion. Why would there not be any engine holes in the pentagon attack?? And how could someone fly a plane that big and that low and not crash before hitting the pentagon? I wonder if your scientist mind can explain that for me?
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Now you've entered my realm.

I can explain it by realizing that my friend was at the pentagon and assures me he watched the plane hit the building. I don't need to go any further than that personally. You're fishing on this one. This is literally my homie from childhood who watched the shit go down in D.C.

Think what you will, but a plane hit it alright.
 
dirk d

dirk d

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Now you've entered my realm.

I can explain it by realizing that my friend was at the pentagon and assures me he watched the plane hit the building. I don't need to go any further than that personally. You're fishing on this one. This is literally my homie from childhood who watched the shit go down in D.C.

Think what you will, but a plane hit it alright.

the scientific mind relying on faith and trust??? but you didn't actually see a huge, massive jumbo jet flying 20' over the ground crash into the pentagon? So if i take a scientific approach i would reason that it is impossible that a jumbo jet hit the pentagon.

 
dirk d

dirk d

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here's another video for those faith and trust based people lol It's a new "secret" jumbo jet without wings lol
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Your "scientific approach" is severely lacking in ballistics and physics analysis--which would be the preferred scientific method for saying even the first thing about whether or not a plane did or could hit the pentagon. This would require more than informed guesses. It would require data, equations, trials. Do you think we build these giant machines to test physical quantities for nothing? No. We build them to tell us things about stuff like this.

Wind tunnels aren't for getting a mean blowout.

What you've done is reasoned science-ishly. Science is a thing with a definite definition, and you've done none of it. You've conjectured, not identified.

As to the question about whether or not I trust my friends whom I've known since I was shitting in diapers--yes I do.

I'm not so pedantic that relationships mean nothing to me. We're talking a close friend of mine--he watched it with his eyes, and that's good enough for me (given the rest of the OVERWHELMING data which suggests this did happen, and the multiple digital and first-hand accounts about the events in NYC).

That said. The really awesome thing about science is that it's a flag which is really incredibly hard to wave when you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. This truth betrays when pretenders and opportunists try to use it to their advantage without the requisite knowledge.

That's what you're attempting to do here. Unfortunately for you, I am a student and practitioner of science rather than a slave to it.

You're committing a fallacy here, a famous one even. It's called the appeal to ignorance. You've placed the burden of proof on the wrong side--and in fact have committed the fallacy in an even deeper sense by using a perceived lack of evidence for the accepted case as "evidence" in the negative, or unaccepted, case.

The burden of proof is on you, and you offer nothing but youtube videos which claim that youtube videos are unreliable.

It.

Is.

A.

Joke.

A supremely dry and nearly unfunny joke, but a joke all the same.

You can't use science as a shield if you don't know shit about the science. The old adage goes: "Knowledge is Power."

On this issue, unless you've got some degrees or a helluva lot of expertise that you're not letting on--you are totally powerless.

At least shoot the misleading youtube videos yourself. Then maybe I'd take you somewhat seriously, at least for your ability to deceive, commit logical fallacies left and right, and cut video files together.

As it stands here it looks like you're really good at letting other people do your thinking for you, relying on information you don't have the expertise to assay, wasting time when you could be developing such expertise, and being really really suggestible.

It's not that these lies are stupid ones, easily picked out. Often the worst and most damaging (and the most successful) lies are the best told ones. They often are half-truths, and appeal to the human's mind to want a spoon-fed picture of how things really are.

Being manipulative and deceptive is about being smart--not only about being greedy, selfish, or in this case--craving attention. You can't feed the latter three without being a good liar, an intelligent manipulator. The best lies sometimes make even more sense than the truth.

This argument goes both ways, but that is why we handle burden of proof the way that we do. It's about weight of the evidence, not how convincing one particular piece of it is (unless its a red-handed type of thing, like DNA in a murder trial).

As a chemist, I'm sure I could start spouting off some deep organic chemistry jargon--and for any layman who would listen, I could convince him of some wildly untrue stuff. I'd be free to essentially make it up as I went along.

That's why we look to people who KNOW things about asking physics and ballistics questions when we ask these questions. People like you are free to make it up as you go along. There's no standard, no peer review, no equation or data to discount. Just your gut feeling that you know what's up. That's a bullshit model for you to use, and then accuse me of relying on faith and trust.

What are you relying on? Have you formed the expertise to judge any of the info?

Just as I could convince you of some chemistry shit, another dude could come along and convince you of some physics shit.

No matter which of them you read, or how true they are--the fact will remain:

You wouldn't know the difference between something true and something false it it bit you in the face 600 times.

The solution: Become a learned physicist, or move on to a different method of proving your flimsy point.
 
marski420

marski420

511
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No one ever changes anyone's minds in these arguments, all I can say is to be open minded and take time to look at the evidence from both sides and make up your own mind.

I have watched several docs. on each side of the argument and have weighed the evidence and in my mind there is no conspiracy here.

Here's a good article from popular mechanics on the subject link
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/news/1227842
Sigh... I have seen videos debunking popular mechanics.I am open minded and look on both sides of the spectrum on everything I research but how can you claim the same when you just said"No one ever changes anyones minds in these arguments". Apparently you dont understand that an air plane CAN NOT go through not just one set of thick steel columns but 2 and still be fully intact.Lets also point out the fact there was no exit hole from the planes nose. The air planes nose is made of plastic and its hollow so please explain to me how it went through the other side shown on the live shot. I can bet anything you didnt watch the video, if you did you are just defying all logic. I have seen a ton of videos and that is the one I choose to show people, because its correct and shows undeniable proof. I am amazing with computers and technology so I understand the flaws in the video editing which he points out. For example in the non live shots of the plane hitting the tower the planes nose casts a shadow across the building(edited in) but in the live shot where we see the plane go right through theres no shadow and thats because the plane wasnt supposed to go all the way through the building and therefore how could they edit that in(since its live TV). He also shows another slip up of the sloppy video editing which further 100% proves the plane was edited in to the shot. Near the end of the video he shows a clip of all the smoke flooding new york(And I mean FLOODING) and thats not from planes hitting towers, thats from BOMBS. Not to mention a couple eye witness testimony of people saying they heard bombs and never seen a plane, including a random guy on the street telling a cop "No plane it was a bomb" and the cop says "It was a plane we saw it on television"

Like I said before which still stands.. WATCH the video and prove it wrong. Not watching the video and throwing an old out dated popular mechanics article at me isnt keeping an open mind, is it?
 
marski420

marski420

511
43
Your "scientific approach" is severely lacking in ballistics and physics analysis--which would be the preferred scientific method for saying even the first thing about whether or not a plane did or could hit the pentagon. This would require more than informed guesses. It would require data, equations, trials. Do you think we build these giant machines to test physical quantities for nothing? No. We build them to tell us things about stuff like this.

Wind tunnels aren't for getting a mean blowout.

What you've done is reasoned science-ishly. Science is a thing with a definite definition, and you've done none of it. You've conjectured, not identified.

As to the question about whether or not I trust my friends whom I've known since I was shitting in diapers--yes I do.

I'm not so pedantic that relationships mean nothing to me. We're talking a close friend of mine--he watched it with his eyes, and that's good enough for me (given the rest of the OVERWHELMING data which suggests this did happen, and the multiple digital and first-hand accounts about the events in NYC).

That said. The really awesome thing about science is that it's a flag which is really incredibly hard to wave when you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. This truth betrays when pretenders and opportunists try to use it to their advantage without the requisite knowledge.

That's what you're attempting to do here. Unfortunately for you, I am a student and practitioner of science rather than a slave to it.

You're committing a fallacy here, a famous one even. It's called the appeal to ignorance. You've placed the burden of proof on the wrong side--and in fact have committed the fallacy in an even deeper sense by using a perceived lack of evidence for the accepted case as "evidence" in the negative, or unaccepted, case.

The burden of proof is on you, and you offer nothing but youtube videos which claim that youtube videos are unreliable.

It.

Is.

A.

Joke.

A supremely dry and nearly unfunny joke, but a joke all the same.

You can't use science as a shield if you don't know shit about the science. The old adage goes: "Knowledge is Power."

On this issue, unless you've got some degrees or a helluva lot of expertise that you're not letting on--you are totally powerless.

At least shoot the misleading youtube videos yourself. Then maybe I'd take you somewhat seriously, at least for your ability to deceive, commit logical fallacies left and right, and cut video files together.

As it stands here it looks like you're really good at letting other people do your thinking for you, relying on information you don't have the expertise to assay, wasting time when you could be developing such expertise, and being really really suggestible.

It's not that these lies are stupid ones, easily picked out. Often the worst and most damaging (and the most successful) lies are the best told ones. They often are half-truths, and appeal to the human's mind to want a spoon-fed picture of how things really are.

Being manipulative and deceptive is about being smart--not only about being greedy, selfish, or in this case--craving attention. You can't feed the latter three without being a good liar, an intelligent manipulator. The best lies sometimes make even more sense than the truth.

This argument goes both ways, but that is why we handle burden of proof the way that we do. It's about weight of the evidence, not how convincing one particular piece of it is (unless its a red-handed type of thing, like DNA in a murder trial).

As a chemist, I'm sure I could start spouting off some deep organic chemistry jargon--and for any layman who would listen, I could convince him of some wildly untrue stuff. I'd be free to essentially make it up as I went along.

That's why we look to people who KNOW things about asking physics and ballistics questions when we ask these questions. People like you are free to make it up as you go along. There's no standard, no peer review, no equation or data to discount. Just your gut feeling that you know what's up. That's a bullshit model for you to use, and then accuse me of relying on faith and trust.

What are you relying on? Have you formed the expertise to judge any of the info?

Just as I could convince you of some chemistry shit, another dude could come along and convince you of some physics shit.

No matter which of them you read, or how true they are--the fact will remain:

You wouldn't know the difference between something true and something false it it bit you in the face 600 times.

The solution: Become a learned physicist, or move on to a different method of proving your flimsy point.

Ok Im pretty sick of being nice Im just going to be blatantly honest. 90+% of everything you write on the farm is a miniature novel of which 100% is you talking out your ass about shit you dont have a fucking clue about. I cant believe you sit there telling me about physics, thats the JOKE bro. Not only do I know the physics are wrong I know the video editing is wrong too. Sloppy video editing doesnt lie especially when angles dont match up, as well as the fact you believe when an object (which isnt designed to withstand any impact) completely impacts one set of steel columns and continues out the other side of yet another set of colums COMPLETELY unscathed.

Also lets point out since you know physics so well in the non live footage aka the "Hezarkhani" footage you see the plane go straight into the building without bending, breaking, twisting or blowing up in to pieces, alone defies physics(As well as the plane going through both sides). What helps understand WHY it defied physics is when he shows the single frame paused of the plane hitting the building, you can clearly see the planes wing is all the way into the building but the tip of the wing is still poking out. In REAL physics the planes nose, wings,engines EVERYTHING would have broken off and not just melted into the building. Oh isnt it also funny how on the day of 9/11 when they showed the "hezarkhani" footage its just him standing there filming and not saying a word but then on the memoriam DVD footage you hear someone who sounds like an actor saying "OMG a plane just crashed into the building, I can not believe it, omg" yeah nothing fishy about anything Im saying, right? You defend insane, corrupt politics and truly believe Obama has an answer.<----- That statement alone is 20x crazier than my 9/11 theories. Sucks I have to be such a dick to you squigs, I prefer peaceful debate but since you feel the need to resort to being a useless douche bag to the conversation I have little choice.

I close with this "At least shoot the misleading youtube videos yourself. Then maybe I'd take you somewhat seriously, at least for your ability to deceive, commit logical fallacies left and right, and cut video files together." 1. Where is your proof the video is misleading or illogical in ANY way? 2. Your statement just showed you in the best possible light "Then maybe I'd take you somewhat seriously, at least for your ability to deceive, commit logical fallacies left and right" DING DING DING this man admitted he gives credit to people who can deceive and commit logical fallacies themselves no fucking wonder your so pro news, government(war too no doubt) EVEN THOUGH YOU KNOW its all bullshit. Tell me whats hard to understand here? The US government has released documents saying they had plans to do this same thing to cuba and another document detailing the gulf of Tonkin war. The gulf of Tonkin documents clearly state that they lied about being attacked so they could gather support to attack them. Same fuckin thing happened on 9/11.. Fake attack, fake reasons for war and lots of patriotism. BTW its proven Iraq had nothing to do with it yet they were there for how many years? Everyone, even people who dont go deep into conspiracy joke about the Iraq war being "about oil and resources". Please tell me why your perfect angel government has military troops guarding poppy fields in Afghanistan? A whistle blower named Michael Ruppert(Former policemen) back in the late 90s or early 2000's came out about the CIA smuggling heroin. Ill let you put two and two together if you can.. Oh you cant? The government is run by thugs, criminals, drug dealers, murderers and cabals.. but in your eyes" They aint so bad ;)"
 
K

kolah

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Wasn't it Hitler who said "the bigger the lie the more likelihood that the people will believe it?"
 
squiggly

squiggly

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263
You did essentially the same thing I said dirk was doing.

You're claiming I don't know shit about science--and you prove it by presenting guesses in a non scientific format.

Where is your research? Your data? Your proof?

How are you surmising that angles don't match up watching a 2D video?

I have a litany of questions for you, but I'll stop there. If it's not become clear by now I don't take proof absent proof seriously. If you know the physics are wrong, prove it. Tell us how you know that. What are your credentials?

As for the wings breaking off--you should perhaps read up a bit on momentum and collisions. I'm also curious to see your material science data which proves this claim--citing the material strength of the buildings materials and the airplane at the given velocities and angles.

You see, THAT'S what a physicist would tell us--were he to do an analysis of this situation. You have left all of this out even though you claim to know what's happened.

I am verbose, that is a certainty. The problem is that I just don't happen to give a flying one if you like it or not. I invite you not to read what I write if it's too long for you. I, unlike you, like to back up my arguments with supports. That's sort of how I roll.

I fail to see how following the rules of logic and sense make me a giant douchebag.

It's another joke that you'd twist a statement I made sarcastically as though it would really stand up as evidence against me. This itself betrays your inability, or disinterest, in having a REAL debate. One where proof is a prerequisite, and logic is king.

As for Iraq, I agree with you. However, at the same time I'm glad Sadaam is dead and I think it's a good thing. Guy was a total shithead.

I look at war a bit differently than most. I'm a survival of the fittest type guy. If you allow hate for America to breed in your country--I think that should move your country to the top of the carpet bomb list. The only reason shit like this can perpetuate is that they know America won't do much about it (until recently).

What do you think the British Empire would've done if a country had been breeding folks who were planning to murder British citizens en masse?

They would've slashed and burned that country (in fact, they DID do this).

One of the first things people used to consider before deciding to outwardly hate and provoke another sovereign nation was whether or not that nation had the power to utterly and completely destroy them in totally embarrassing fashion.

We're a bunch of PC pussies these days. Of course I feel bad for civilians and the children and what not--but its not the first time in history that the INaction of the people of a nation doomed their nation.

The CIA was smuggling cocaine so far as I knew. Out of LA--the whole Ricky Ross incident.

I agree that many of whom run the country are thugs, liars, and certainly drug dealers--but what that doesn't prove is that a plane didn't hit the building.

Let's see in this argument of yours I found the following fallacies:

1. Cherry Picking
2. Poisoning the Well
3. Straw Man
4. Slippery Slope
5. Judgmental Language
6. Fallacy of Many Questions
7. False Attribution
8. Gambler's Fallacy

Your argument is literally a homework assignment for a Composition I class, or an exercise for a 7th grade debate team.

How can I be expected to take that seriously?

For the record, I know that you're wrong--but it doesn't bother me a bit if you want to continue on believing what you believe.

I just also don't give a shit what you think of me or my statements. I fully expect people who have no proof for their point except that they believe it to derail into logical fallacies, attacks on my character, and the like--this is the absolutely expected behavior of a defeated man who cannot accept his defeat or his incorrect assumption.

All you've done here is solidify what I already knew--that you can't prove a goddamn thing.

Please, feel free to prove me wrong if you can.

If you did have the physical knowledge to do so, it's almost a guarantee someone else also has it and would've completed such an analysis by now. We'd already have the information. If you feel like you're up to the task of breaking the case 11 years late here on THCFarmer; I beg you please, inform us--oh ye of great and unassailable knowledge :)
 
sanvanalona

sanvanalona

1,878
263
As for Iraq, I agree with you. However, at the same time I'm glad Sadaam is dead and I think it's a good thing. Guy was a total shithead.

I look at war a bit differently than most. I'm a survival of the fittest type guy. If you allow hate for America to breed in your country--I think that should move your country to the top of the carpet bomb list. The only reason shit like this can perpetuate is that they know America won't do much about it (until recently).

What do you think the British Empire would've done if a country had been breeding folks who were planning to murder British citizens en masse?

They would've slashed and burned that country (in fact, they DID do this).

This interests me, your views on war that is. I think of the British Empire as a rather dirty empire, not one I think we should be using to justify our own nations wrong doings, to get simple two wrongs don't make a right. Unless, of course you are alluding to the way in which they fell from their global position with such grace, I mean The U.K. still has its own land and many others too....part of good negotiating during WWII and if you think we are a nation on the decline and that we can learn from the way Britain fell......then I agree.

But the biggest problem I have in the case of Sadam is this: did a million Iraqi civilians need to die in order to kill 1 or maybe a small group of individuals? Of course their is also the problem of sovereignty. That is a big topic though!
 

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