Oxygenation And Nutrient Uptake - O2 Generators Vs Air Pumps

[J Henry]

Oxygenation and Nutrient Uptake https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/myth-free-water-nutrient-temperature-level-information.21077/

Healthy roots supplied with sufficient oxygen are able to absorb nutrient ions selectively from the surrounding solution as required. The metabolic energy which is required to drive this nutrient uptake process is obtained from root respiration using oxygen. In fact there can be a net loss of nutrient ions from a plant’s root system when suffering from a lack of oxygen (anaerobic conditions). Without sufficient oxygen in the root zone, plants are unable to take up mineral nutrients in the concentrations required for maximum growth and development. Maintain maximum levels of dissolved oxygen boosts nutrient uptake by ensuring healthy roots have the energy required to rapidly take up and transport water and mineral ions.

Using Oxygen Generator to increase DO. https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/using-oxygen-generator-to-increase-do.21102/

Now from all the research done as of late the Higher concentrations of DO in the water the Better. Oxygen helps in many different ways and there are to many to list. I had an Idea to Introduce More Pure Oxygen into Res.

This in theory Should Create A SUPER Charged Oxygen rich environment.

Now I was thinking of using a Oxygen Generator, most of these units take the normal air and turn it into 90-95% Pure Oxygen and some of the larger units output pressure can be as much as 12psi( Thats greater than most Commercial air pumps). Why not pump this High concentration of Oxygen directly into the res. using airs stones ect.

Or my other Idea was to take one of the Oxygen Generators with lower output production and pump the 90-95% Oxygen directly to a box with a Air Pump in it and pump that to res.

Fast forward 6 years down the road today.

Any of you neo-experts and whiz-kids have any opinion?

What’s the difference and big deal between bubbling O2 into the water or bubbling air into the water or bubbling CO2 into the water in 2016?

How do the experts tell the difference between oxygen or air or CO2?

Why is there any difference between oxygen and air? It all looks, taste and smells the same as CO2 to me.

J

 

[ken dog]

One way to tell if you are pumping co2 into your roots... You would see a drop in pH.

 

[J Henry]

Good point on the CO2.

Yep, your right, I just looked that up on Wiki. CO2 mixed with water H2O = H2Co3 or carbonic acid. The Wiki says that's a "weak-acid" so if the acid is weak that probably won't hurt nothing.
If the acid gets to strong, might need mix in some baking soda to buffer and increase the pH a tad or just better yet - don't get the CO2 in the water may be a wiser choice unless the pH is around 10-12 and buffering the pH down might help a little.

Now we need a pH expert for some help.

 

[J Henry]

One way to tell if you are pumping co2 into your roots... You would see a drop in pH.

Why would you pump CO2 into nutrient water for the roots (>dissolved Co2, DCO2)? Do plants absorb CO2 through the leaves, toots or stems?

 

[J Henry]

Why would you pump CO2 into nutrient water for the roots (>dissolved Co2, DCO2)? Do plants absorb CO2 through the leaves, toots or stems?

Ops, I meant to type roots, not toots.

 

[ken dog]

It doesn't matter how CO2 is absorbed in this case... What matters, is that when CO2 and water mix, a weak acid is formed and the pH drops.
The lesson to take with this one is, leave your air pump outside of a CO2 enriched room.

 

[MGRox]

Dealt a lot with this stuff in the fish store.

If we look at a given volume of water with some form of aeration (air stone, pump etc.) with essentially no B.O.D.

-O2 will quickly equalize with atmospheric levels in the water volume.
-Pure O2 can be added to increase DO to some degree, but that extra is very quickly off-gassed and will return to atmospheric if pure is stopped.
-CO2 however does not easily equalize to atmospheric levels. Even with aeration, CO2 can easily stay above atmospheric for a fairly long period. Now if the same water we are using has any B.O.D (also with soils), we now have a CO2 source; continually being added.

This is one of the primary reasons for pH drops in marine aquariums with correct alkalinity. It's not about gettin' O2 in; it's about getting CO2 out.

 

[J Henry]

It doesn't matter how CO2 is absorbed in this case... What matters, is that when CO2 and water mix, a weak acid is formed and the pH drops.
The lesson to take with this one is, leave your air pump outside of a CO2 enriched room.

I see

 

[40BRIX]

I don't think it's worth it, I couldn't find anything that shows it to make bigger buds :cry:

Here's a lettuce DO study link, no difference in growth at different DO levels
http://www.actahort.org/books/440/440_36.htm

Here's a tomato study, no difference up to about 4x ambient O2, stunted growth at higher concentrations than 4x
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304423807001203

Here's a watermelon study with no significant difference in plant/fruit biomass
http://wwwlib.teiep.gr/images/stories/acta/Acta 697/697_1.pdf

 

[J Henry]

I don't think it's worth it, I couldn't find anything that shows it to make bigger buds :cry:

Here's a lettuce DO study link, no difference in growth at different DO levels
http://www.actahort.org/books/440/440_36.htm

Here's a tomato study, no difference up to about 4x ambient O2, stunted growth at higher concentrations than 4x
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304423807001203

Here's a watermelon study with no significant difference in plant/fruit biomass
http://wwwlib.teiep.gr/images/stories/acta/Acta 697/697_1.pdf

I don't know much about the nutrient DO water quality parameters for growing hydroponic tomatoes, lettuce and water mellons, but I like to eat them.
Do you have anything about low oxygen environments in RDWC causing Pythium fungal outbreaks in RDWC cannabis gardens or anything about how to prevent these fungal outbreaks in the first place? Everyone that has fungal outbreaks offer many opinions about what they think may have caused the outbreak and how to treat root rot outbreaks with different chemical concoctions but most of the chemical concoctions also kill all the beneficial microbes too and that adds more to an already bad problem with the fungal disease.

 

[PhatNuggz]

Basic stuff: 2 ways to stop/prevent root rot and associated issues is water temp too warm and insufficient DO by using too small air pumps and stones

 

[J Henry]

Basic stuff: 2 ways to stop/prevent root rot and associated issues is water temp too warm and insufficient DO by using too small air pumps and stones

Do you practice RDWC? In your 2 part answer, let's take the oxygenation part first. 1. What DO saturation do you consider oxygenation insufficient to prevent and stop root rot? 2. What DO saturation is good sufficient oxygenation and will prevent root rot?

 

[stutter]

There is a point where water will no longer absorb o2. The higher the temp the lower that point is so cooler water can hold more DO. Secondly airstones are very inefficient at introducing o2 to water. Much better off using a flume or a waterfall imo.

There would be no point In using an o2 generator because you can easily reach the maximum do potential of your water with a flume.

I have no airstones in my rdwc

 

[J Henry]

There is a point where water will no longer absorb o2. The higher the temp the lower that point is so cooler water can hold more DO. Secondly airstones are very inefficient at introducing o2 to water. Much better off using a flume or a waterfall imo.

There would be no point In using an o2 generator because you can easily reach the maximum do potential of your water with a flume.

I have no airstones in my rdwc

I agree with you that airstones are very inefficient devices to oxygenate water when air is your source gas... air is 80% Nirogen so all those bubbles are mostly just nitrogen with very little oxygen.

The question is about only the oxygen part of air: Do you have any idea what the DO saturation is that's necessary to prevent root rot (this will be like 10%, 30%, 50%, 75%, 90%, 100%, 110%, 130% 150%)?
The 4/5 ths nitrogen part of air is nonfunctional gas bubbles coming out of diffusers. All that nitrogen in air has nothing to do with oxygenation.
It's really hard to tell the difference between oxygen bubbles and nitrogen bubbles coming out of a diffuser, they all look the same. Low oxygen problems occur when there's not enough oxygen coming out of the diffuser.

 

[40BRIX]

Here's a lengthy article on pythium..
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=s0100-54052006000400001&script=sci_arttext

Basically it says pythium is everywhere, prevention is difficult for initial exposure even in a pretty sterile environment. The best ways to fight pythium are 1. increased DO levels, much beyond the 7-8mg/l you get from just bubbling air, 2. lower water temps, best below 68f 3.biological agents such as beneficial bacteri, probably what's in some of those additives ( I don't cause I choose to avoid the bio problem, I kill everything in the root zone and have bright white roots!)

So your initial idea of using an oxygen generator will help reduce the pythium problem, so go for it! I was only looking at plant production increases, not root problems.

There's also a link fomr the farm for one of the referenced articles from the above,
https://www.thcfarmer.com/community...-in-hydroponic-crops-current-knowledge.43017/

 

[PhatNuggz]

Do you practice RDWC? In your 2 part answer, let's take the oxygenation part first. 1. What DO saturation do you consider oxygenation insufficient to prevent and stop root rot? 2. What DO saturation is good sufficient oxygenation and will prevent root rot?

Most people use just one small single air pump, maybe 2. I use DWC primarily for veg/clones. In ~ 2gallons of water I have 4 @ 4" air stones, air supplied by > 13 L/M pump. The combination of insufficient air plus above recommended water temp is a recipe for disaster

The second part of your question is answered in my answer

 

[ken dog]

02 is not a sanitizer. Further, too much dissolved oxygen, and you will burn your plants up no matter how little your EC is.

 

[Dunge]

Why is there any difference between oxygen and air? It all looks, taste and smells the same as CO2 to me.
J

Clearly you have never sampled CO2.
Sniff with care or it will torch your respiratory membranes.

 

[ken dog]

Do not sniff pure or extremely high levels of CO2... one single inhalation can knock you unconscious.

 

[J Henry]

Here's a lengthy article on pythium..
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=s0100-54052006000400001&script=sci_arttext

Basically it says pythium is everywhere, prevention is difficult for initial exposure even in a pretty sterile environment. The best ways to fight pythium are 1. increased DO levels, much beyond the 7-8mg/l you get from just bubbling air, 2. lower water temps, best below 68f 3.biological agents such as beneficial bacteri, probably what's in some of those additives ( I don't cause I choose to avoid the bio problem, I kill everything in the root zone and have bright white roots!)

So your initial idea of using an oxygen generator will help reduce the pythium problem, so go for it! I was only looking at plant production increases, not root problems.

There's also a link fomr the farm for one of the referenced articles from the above,
https://www.thcfarmer.com/community...-in-hydroponic-crops-current-knowledge.43017/

Thanks a lot.
"1. increased DO levels, much beyond the 7-8mg/l"
If this is correct, this very easy to do. 15-17 PPM DO should absolutely prevent the root rot.

02 is not a sanitizer. Further, too much dissolved oxygen, and you will burn your plants up no matter how little your EC is.

With all the root rot problems I hear about, the biggest problem is clearly low oxygen, seldom enough oxygen and I've never heard of anyone having any problem from too much oxygen. Do you know anyone personally that ever had a problem with too much oxygen? I personally know of none.